Talk:Clone Wars/Archive 1

Archive 1

Name origin

Although the title of this war was derived from the Republic Grand Army of Clone troopers, the main enemy was the Confederate Separatists. --John V

Disapearing fleets

I have a question about the battles: in the game "Rebel Assault 2, the Hidden Empire" there is reference about a battle in the Dreighton Triangle, were both Separatists and Clones fleet dissapeared in the middle of the battle. Is there any info aobut this? --Messhermit 05:15, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be a horrible anachronism since RA2 came out in, I think, 1996? --Maru (talk) Contribs 04:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I've made a new page of the Battle of the Dreighton Triangle. Acess it here or the guessed date of month 12. --Bly1993 7 Nov 2005

Initial EU info

There was a pre-Attack of the Clones overview about the Clone Wars on a Star Wars fansite:

"The Clone Wars was a war between the Republic and the armies of the Clone Masters and it ended with cloning technology being eradicated."

This pre-Attack of the Clones overview about the Clone Wars is not part of the Star Wars storyline! Since the full overview about the Clone Wars wasn't mentioned in the original trilogy, how did George Lucas come up with a full overview about the Clone Wars? --UnknownJohn 00:25, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Rebellion on Kamino?

"Rebellion on Kamino- the Prime Minister of Tipoca City, Lama Su, started to create next-generation Clone troopers to help the Rebel Alliance fight against the Galactic Empire."

Does anyone know the source for this info? It seems rather dubious to me. --Angel Blue 451 16:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I believe that is from the video game Star Wars: Battlefront II. --The Wookieepedian 02:07, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Yep, its from Battlefront II, along with the Battle of Mustafar. I'm the one who made the page. I'll update it with more info. Bly1993 31 October

Ah, just wondering. Thanks. Angel Blue 451 21:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I had thought that this information was from the dark horse comic series? was i mistaken?

I'm curious to know where the BattleFront II main storyline fits in the continuity. Is it canon? --Hibbidyhai

Officaly, yes it is at C canon level.--Jakezing (talk) 20:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Books

Shouldn't this article list the books which mentioned the Clone Wars as well? (example: The Thrawn Trilogy). --The Wookieepedian 09:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd say list them in a section to themselves, along with a delineation of what the EU held the Clone Wars to be before Lucas came out with his prequels. For this, you'd use Zahn's two Thrawn trilogies, I, Jedi, the two Han Solo trilogies I believe mention the Clone Wars... and I'm not sure what else substantially mentions them, offhand. --Maru (talk) Contribs 17:05, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Intergalactic?

Shouldn't it say that it was a series of intragalactic, that is within the galaxy, as distinguished from between galaxies? --Aerodotus 22:31, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes. It is a common spelling mistake. I'll fix it. (The only contact documented that the people of the SW ever had with another galaxy was with the Yuuzhan Vong.) The Wookieepedian 22:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Well... Technically there were to the best of my knowledge, three contacts. First was Waru on Crseih Station (see the Hethrir article), then there were the inhabitants of "Otherspace", the Charon [BLACKLISTED LINK REMOVED] (referenced in the second edition of "A Guide to the Star Wars Universe", sourcing West End Games' Otherspace and Otherspace II: Invasion), and finally as you pointed out, the Yuuzhan Vong. There have been suggestions that the "Other and the Rest" that spawned Vuffi Raa (Lando Calrissian's droid in the eponymous Adventures trilogy) might be of extra-galactic origins, but that's just speculation. Needless to say, I'm not counting the Ssi-Ruuk. --Maru (talk) Contribs 17:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Moved

Why was this page moved from Clone Wars to The Clone Wars? – Mipadi 20:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Because that is what they are usually referred to, instead of "Clone Wars." The Wookieepedian 20:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

In articles? This means every link is going to have to be either piped, or look like The Clone Wars or the Clone Wars; normally, only Clone Wars is linked, like that. – Mipadi 22:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I moved the page a while back, and since then, I've changed every link I run across to this article to say "Clone Wars," with it actually linking to "The Clone Wars." If you see any redirects, fix those as well. The Wookieepedian 22:43, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I mean to say that anyone creating new articles or adding a link are most likely going to link to Clone Wars (because that's most natural), not The Clone Wars. The move doesn't make a lot of sense, as Clone Wars wasn't interfering with another page. I'm of the opinion it should be moved back. – Mipadi 23:39, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

It really should be at Clone Wars, according to the naming conventions. – Mipadi 17:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Page move

I propose that this article be moved to Clone Wars, as per the naming conventions. I'd do it myself, but a redirect appears at Clone Wars, and I'd like to maintain this article's history, if possible. – Mipadi 17:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. Jonathunder 19:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Improvement

After reading through this article, I think that it is badly in need of some improvement. It's become a tangled morass of material that is mostly either too detailed or irrelevant. This is a problem because that means that the good material is hard to find. I have a few ideas on how to best improve this page that I am going to try to implement. (Since it is a big edit, I'm going to work on it here for the time being.)

1. Ditch the listed timeline. Most of this article is simply a list of "significant" battles that are then linked to. The thing is, most of these battles probably aren't that important. Even though I am a huge Star Wars fan, I am of the opinion that battles that are not covered in the movies or significant works of fiction do no not warrant their own article. The problem with a lot of Star Wars articles on Wikipedia is that they're all over the place. Remember that Wikipedia is not just about Star Wars. Would a casual reader searching for information on a battle of the Clone Wars search for that specific battle, or just go to the Clone Wars article? Probably the latter. Furthermore, is the typical user, or even a huge Star Wars fan such as myself, interested in the exact casualty counts of tiny battles, especially ones that only appeared in a single video game, comic book, or novel? Probably not—they'd just want a brief overview.

A quick analysis of the Clone Wars article shows that, in terms of listing battles, it is even more in-depth than a page such as American Revolution or American Civil War—yet it still contains even less good information than those articles. That's why I propose rewriting this article in a style similar to that of other "war" articles such as American Revolution or American Civil War. Rather than just giving a list of battles, give a brief overview of the major events of the Clone Wars, as well as information on the build-up, political ramifications, and so forth. Much of the important information from the smaller "Clone Wars battles" articles can be implemented here, in one spot. Major battles, of course, could still have a separate article with a link (again, see American Revolution, American Civil War, World War II, and similar pages for models). Not only would the information be more easily synthesized, but we'd get rid of the non-encyclopedic fancruft as well, and make the article into more of an encyclopedic style.

2. Ditch the irrelevant information. How many users actually need a list of all the works that reference the Clone Wars? If a specific quote is used or paraphrased, it's certainly a great idea to reference it; but a list of all the works that mention the Clone Wars is neither necessary nor encyclopedic.

Those are a few ideas I have as of now. My goal in recent weeks has been to clean up the Star Wars articles on Wikipedia to read more like encyclopedia entries. There's a lot of good information here, but a lot of users tend to go overboard with fancruft. I think it's a good idea to get rid of the irrelevant information in order to make such articles more readable and encyclopedic. Basically, keep good information that most users are looking for in; get rid of the trivial or unimportant information that no one really comes to Wikipedia to find. Finally, actually cite sources and make these articles more encyclopedic, even though they are purely fiction. – Mipadi 20:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I am currently working on a rough draft of this article, incorporating the improvements I listed above. The new article will incorporate much of the information from the smaller stub articles about various battles, with those pages then being redirected here. I am also dispensing with the timeline formatting and writing the chronology of events as a sort of history text, with actual description and information included right in the article. Major battles will still have their own articles, if necessary—although, since most of the articles seem to be battles based on videogames that largely have superfluous information, the number of independent articles will be vastly decreased.

Please check out the rough draft and leave comments for its improvement. Thanks a lot. – Mipadi 21:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Merge

I think, especially with WP:FICT looming, that we merge all clone wars battle miniarticles into a list. We won't be deleting meaningful content, but it'll keep things organized. Some of the larger battles (I'd say ten percent of the total amount of battles) could have their own articles, but I really think this will benefit Wikipedia. Deckiller 01:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. See my note in Improvement, above, for more details. — Mipadi 14:34, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction?

Is it just me or is this a big contradiction?

All the way through the three-year war, the Clone Troopers were withstanding a huge Battle Droid siege. Almost every battle during the Clone Wars was a Seperatist offensive, and while the Republic was able to beat serious threats off, they often served as diversions so that the Confederacy could conquer worlds elsewhere.

Then, two sections later...

Also, the nature of the Clone Wars was similar to that of the American Civil War. The CIS fought a defensive war for the most part, as did the CSA.

Is it possible to fight a defensive war by making offensive movements every which way? --Shadarian 22:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I removed that sentence and the preceding one, as I believe the fiction clearly shows the CIS as being the aggressor in the majority of battles. --BinaryTed 21:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Leaving aside the theoretical military strategy discussions, my perception was that the CIS was initially on hte offensive, but as the Republic geared up and the Outer rim sieges got under way, the CIS was pushed back on to the defensive, with the Battle of Coruscant akin to Gettysburg= the furthest the Confederates ever got, after which they never really did much offensive actions at all. --maru (talk) contribs 22:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Part of the problem with that analogy is that the CSA lasted for two more years after the "high water mark" at Gettysburg. How quickly did the Clone Wars end after the Battle of Coruscant? If my timeline is correct it's a matter of two weeks (or less), and the war had been going on for nearly 36 months by that point. Personally I think this particular angle is speculative enough that it doesn't really have a place in the article, especially because we can't even agree if there's a similarity, let alone an intentional one. --BinaryTed 00:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Truthfully, the end of the Clone Wars and the beginning of the Purge's timelines are rather screwed up. An example would be- Mustafar is in the Outer Rim. It should take days or weeks to get there, but we see the Yoda/Palpatine, Obi-Wan/Anakin duels take place simultaneously. This is all well and good, except for the problem that Palpatine then leaves for Mustafar and apparently rescues Anakin mere minutes or hours later. Obviously, Anakin didn't roll around on the burning rocks and lava for the days or weeks he should have if Palpatine left during or at then end of the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel. And so on. The thing that convinces me the most is Dooku's resemblance to Lee- I can't think the facial hair was an accident. --maru (talk) contribs 02:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Vote

We should have a vote so users can know how to edit this article properly knowing that majority supports them. Here are some things you can vote for. You can vote for as many section as you want unless you contradicting yourself.

Article is perfectly fine, just needs expansion and minor work:

• The article needs an overview of the course of the war, followed by the list. The list of references should be converted into footnotes, and all the above material cited better. The satellite battle articles could, of course, stand major improvement. --maru (talk) contribs 00:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

---
Transfer list of battles and their description to its own article:
Replace this with your vote for above
---
Get rid of the list completely or create a small list:
Replace this with your vote for above
---
List should only have known battles. Not game/minor EU battles
Replace this with your vote for above
---
If you want to add your own section perfectly fine with me. Tutmosis 21:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Meeting on Vjun

Above needs editing —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scorpiusdiamond (talk • contribs)

wow

i thought this was something lucas made up -- where did you all get this info??????? --Ghetteaux 16:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

well my friend there is a little thing called the expanded universe, and it is vast, yeha it was create by lucus but then it grew all on its own with the help of devoted fans and crazed fanatics--Manwithbrisk 23:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Clone War items?

why is Katarn-class commando armour listed here instead of on the clone commando page? or conversely why isn't any other technology from the clone wars listed here? it just seems out of place can we clean this up? or add to the section--gooseneck 23:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Major clean-up / edit: Feedback wanted!

For the past few months, I have been toiling to clean up this article, for a number of reasons. I was first inspired by the format of the article. The timeline is just a bad idea, very unprofessional, and rather useless. My initial idea was to rewrite it by merging all the small articles into this one, and writing the storyline as a sort of narrative. However, inspired by recent efforts in Jabba the Hutt, I've tried to edit the article to give a more "real-world" feel, while relying heavily on the Wookieepedia article for the strickly '"Star Wars stuff.

My idea is to dispense with the small battle articles by merging them into the relevant videogame, novel, or comic book article, and utilize the efforts of Wookieepedia by linking to items there, rather than just copying data. To that end, I have released a draft of the article which I hope to implement. It still needs a good deal of work, but I think it's a good replacement for the one we currently have.

The article can be read and commented on at the following locations:

• Clone Wars (article)
• Discussion

– Mipadi 19:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Completely agree with the above. For the last couple of months, I've managed to merge several of the battles without issues, so I think we can expand and do this fullscale without too much trouble. Glad to see you on board as well, Mipadi. — Deckiller 08:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Original research

We're going to have to be careful to make sure original research does not creep into the Historial parallels section. – Mipadi 19:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

We also need to do something about those battle articles. Most of the clone war battles have been merged; about 80 percent of those left are summaries of the climax of a random clone wars cartoon episode. My idea was to compress the data and put it in a plot synopsis on the main cartoon page per WP:FICT, or have articles for each episode. — Deckiller 20:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd advocate merging the small battle articles into the relevant media article, i.e. small battle articles from the Clone Wars microseries can go in that article, small battle articles from Star Wars: Battlefront II can go into that article, and so forth. – Mipadi 20:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Clean up!

Let's clean this article up! I'd like to eventually submit it to peer review, once it seems to at least be approaching such quality. – Mipadi 20:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

GA promotion

I promoted this article to GA status. I think it is a good article. My only comment is that the once-sentece paragraph of the lead be expanded or deleted. Also, there is a paragraph in military section without a reference (I'm not sure about Count Dooku's beard, either). Dmoon1 05:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Military infobox

I'm a little concerned about putting an in universe military infobox for this article, since it's from an out of universe perspective (hence the GA status), so it may not fit with the goal of this page. I know many of the others have it, but they are not yet from an out of universe perspective. — Deckiller 19:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur. It makes the fictional element too ambiguous; I'd suggest removing it. – Mipadi 20:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. Couldn't the same be said about a character box, such as the one on Jabba the Hutt? The Wookieepedian 04:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. I see no need for an infobox there, either.

In fact, I'm of the opinion that infoboxes are overused on Wikipedia. – Mipadi 06:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Size of the armies?

Does anyone know size of the armies? How many clone troopers did the Empire have and how many droids did the other side have? --Svetovid 23:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Consdiering the whole talk page is dead i'll just answer for the heck of it, and correct you.

• First off, it was the republic, anybody who's seen the prequels would realize this,
• and then theres the number of troops, how do you get a troop number when the sides were clones that were created and basicly are cannon fodder, and the easy to make droids?

The true answer is either ? or infinite, you can't put numbers on clones and droids, droids speceficly in that if you watch epsiode 2, you see the big droid factory.--Jakezing (talk) 21:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but then Karen Traviss decided to contradict all other evidence and drop very big and obvious hints that the CIS army wasn't actually all that big but *only* seemed that way because of how Palpatine was running the war. Honestly, I thinks she's just trying to hog the spot light with that claim though. Anyway, because the evidence her characters come across is just vague enough to written off as freak coincidences, I think most hardcore fans (and probably most other authors) have chosen to ignore her characters' findings, because I've really only seen criticism of her decision and I can't say I've ever seen any other sources by other authors, etc. that support her. Thank goodness. 129.107.81.12 (talk) 06:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Sifo-Dyas

The order for the soldiers was submitted to the Kaminoans by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, later revealed to be an alias of Count Dooku.

This passage contradicts to what is written in this article: Sifo_Dyas

can someone who is more familiar resolve this conflict —Preceding unsigned comment added by NaibStilgar (talk • contribs) 21:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I think this confusion was actually mentioned on SNL by the girl who played Padme (saying she didn't know that much about Star Wars and then correcting someone's misunderstanding about this as a joke). I think she said Sifo Dyas *didn't* make the order, though I don't remember. Check StarWars.com or Wookieepedia, they're both reliable for important details, well Wookieepedia is anyway, I've seen StarWars.com make mistakes, which is ironic but funny. 129.107.81.12 (talk) 05:56, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Not to nit pick but... (about the commanders)

In the Republic Commanders column it mentions "other Jedi", is it worth mentioning there were non-clone commanders as well (such as Pellaeon)? And then there were recruited Mandalorians who were sometimes assigned ranks in the CIS army (such as Hokan)... Just thoughts. 129.107.81.12 (talk) 05:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Clone Wars (Star Wars)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

I will do the GA Reassessment on this article as part of the GA Sweeps project. H1nkles (talk) 16:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I am working my way through the article and I wanted to comment on this statement, "Parallels between the Clone Wars and the Civil War also seem to exist with the secession of territories, the name "Confederacy of Independent Systems" and the Republic's army being called the Grand Army of the Republic." There is no reference for this and it appears to be speculative on the part of the editors. Please advise if this has a source or if this is speculation. If it is speculation it should be removed as a violoation of WP:OR.

The last two sentences in the Political and Military sub-section are stub paragraphs (one-sentence paragraphs) that should be expanded or combined.

The subject connections between the two sub-sections in the Allusions section are a bit tenuous. I'm not saying they don't exist but it seems to be a bit of a subject jump between the two sub-sections. H1nkles (talk) 17:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm debating the clean up tags that are on the article. I don't feel that the plot summary is necessarily too detailed. I've seen far worse. I think some could be trimmed out of the plot summary but I'm not in agreement that a clean up tag needs to be put in there for excessive length and detail. I do think that the summary should be cleaned up to meet WP standards. After the second paragraph in this section there are no in-line citations. To avoid original research please look for plot summaries that will help support the assertions in this section. Also there are three very small paragraphs (one to two sentences in length) in a row that could be combined. Sentences like, "The Clone Army of the Republic first sees battle engaging the Separatist forces on Geonosis, rescuing a group of Jedi trapped by Count Dooku's droids." are poorly written and should be edited. Also the detail about Yoda being the general of the Republic's forces in the Geonosis battle is unnecessary and could be cut. This statement, "Three years after the Battle of Geonosis, CIS forces under the command of the cyborg General Grievous attempt to kidnap Chancellor Palpatine from the Republic capital world of Coruscant. The Chancellor is rescued and Confederacy leader Count Dooku killed, thanks to the efforts of Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi and Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker." is somewhat restated in the next paragraph, combine them to cut duplicative information. These are just some examples and suggestions to help clean up this section. In short I would say the clean-up tag regarding WP quality standards is legitimate while the tag regarding plot length and detail has some weight but I feel could be removed when the quality standards are addressed.

In the Multimedia Campaign section I put a tag at the end of the paragraph regarding the cartoon series. This should be referenced. This section is also a series of very small paragraphs that should be combined for better flow.

There are several dead links in the references section including: 1, 12, 14, 19. Ref 13 does not link to the editorial referenced in the article.

I'd also like to see an image or two. Per WP:WIAGA a GA should try to have an image whenever possible. I think it is possible to find something given the subject matter.

Overall I do not believe the article currently meets the WP:GA Criteria. Specifically I feel it falls short in section 2, 1b and 3b (given the need for clean up of the Plot section) and 6 (given no images in an article that should have plenty of images to choose from). I think that clean up can be done to bring it up to GA standards. As such I will put the article on hold for a week and notify interested projects and editors. Should there be any questions please contact me on my talk page. H1nkles (talk) 17:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The article has been on hold since August 7th with no evidence of work and no discussion here or on my talk page regarding my review. As such I will delist the article and encourage editors to continue to work on it and renominate it at WP:GAC when it meets the current GA Criteria. H1nkles (talk) 15:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Episode III Additions

None of the events in Episode III are here, some lazy bugger made the sections but no text inside. I made a rough outline of the battle of Coruscant and I might do the same with Kashyyyk soon, but I think some major attention needs to be paid. The Clone Wars TV series events need help too. Wikipedia's resident grammar police --NorwegianNazgul (talk) 14:46, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

How exactly did the clone wars end?

Who shut down the deactivation code/the deactivation switch-Darth Sidious or Darth Vader? Did the deaths of Nute Gunray, poggle the lesser, and the other seperatist leaders really truly end the clone wars, or was it just shutting down their droid armies? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.145.218 (talk) 17:43, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Protected

This article appears to be in trouble. There are too many issues to ignore. Maybe a semi-protection standing for approximately six to eight months until more stable restoration can take place. A good tidy up and properly cited sources can be referenced.

AMS351996 (talk) 07:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)AMS351996AMS351996 (talk) 07:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Pre 2002

Were the Clone Wars depicted in any of the comics and novels published before the prequel trilogy? If so how did they depict them? Timrollpickering (talk) 12:57, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

The Clone Wars were more a Sith victory than a Republic/Imperial victory

I did update the table putting the victor as the Order of the Sith Lords, but it was reverted, so I'd like to discuss it here.

This I think is the most relevant statement regarding this matter, from Chapter 18 "Order Sixty-Six" from The Revenge of the Sith novel by Michael Stover:

What is happening right now (Order 66) is why the Clone Wars were fought in the first place. It is the reason for their existence. The Clone Wars have always been, in and of themselves, from their very inception, the revenge of the Sith.

This same passage talks about how "[t]he Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap."

So it is clear that the Clone Wars were orchestrated by the Sith for their own benefit as a war against the Jedi, rather than as a true war between the Galactic Republic and the Confederacy of Independent systems (which each secretly had the exact same person as its leader), so it would make sense to at least include the Order of the Sith Lords as a victor of the war.

What do the others here think? --Beneficii (talk) 02:54, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

The entire article is a mess of in-universe plot summary, trivia, and rampant inference, speculation, and original research. It is not well served by more layers of in-universe trivia about machinations and secret orders. --EEMIV (talk) 23:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Archive 1