Talk:Cimarron River (Canadian River tributary)

USGS Streamer (Watershed Navigator)

Item #1

USGS.gov Recent Streamer Enhancements Streamer is on the move ...

https://plus.google.com/115688724551882441676/posts/doc8RzXQVkR Bob-RJ Burkhart Jan 4, 2017 - ... has moved from its former location at The National Map to become a feature of USGS Water Data for the Nation. The new url is:http://water.usgs.gov/streamer StoryTrek (talk) 22:43, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Created USGS downstream trace summary from trail leading to Palo Flechado Pass that connects major watershed basins: Rio Grande & Arkansas-White-Red that feeds into Lower Mississippi Trace Details Trace Direction: Downstream Trace Origin Stream Name: Cieneguilla Creek Trace Origin (latitude, longitude): 36.356, -105.235 Trace Origin Elevation (feet): 9,801 Water Features Total Length of Traced U.S. Streams (miles): 2,162 Outlet Waterbody: Gulf of Mexico USGS Stream Gages (count): 61 Stream Names (count): 9 Waterbody Names (count): 15 https://txpub.usgs.gov/DSS/Streamer/api/3.14/js/report/report.html?debug=false&caller=streamer_report_summary&session_id=222255357682&basemap=terrain&basemapOpacity=1&UsaMask=true&UsaMaskOpacity=0.5&traceDir=down&StreamID=20113728&xWebMerc=-11714726.519&yWebMerc=4349764.6472&reportType=summary StoryTrek (talk) 02:34, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi StoryTrek, Yes, I ran the streamer report for myself yesterday and it is nice to see this view. I couldn't figure out how to save it like the one that you ran here for Cieneguilla Creek - one of the headwaters, right?

Is this an FYI? Or, is there something from this information that you think should be included in the article?–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:55, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Note that this tributary is part of the Canadian River Watershed before feeding into the Arkansas Basin! GeoVenturing (talk) 18:20, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Item #2

USGS National Map Database shows 1958 Placename as Old Taos Pass which suppresses biogeography & cultural heritage legends of non-European inhabitants: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kq32wmpqe4zhnvk/Old%20Taos%20Pass%202017-06-03%2021.41.42.png?dl=0 StoryTrek (talk) 02:49, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

StoryTrek, We cannot use the dropbox link, but we could try to use https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/Browse/NM/NM_Raton_403180_1958_250000.jpg -- but it would be much better to have something in text about this, because it's essentially WP:Original research to ascertain that it's the same location. I assume this for the Palo Flechado Pass article - is that right?–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:03, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I added "Old Taos Pass" to the Palo Flechado Pass article, based upon the GNIS entry.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Item #3

TopoView Source of prior JPG Screenshot: https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/maps/TopoView/viewer/#5/39.521/-103.359 StoryTrek (talk) 02:52, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I picked up the link from the page - and copy and pasted in a different link above.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Item #4

Prior edition (1963) shows headwaters streams near Palo Flechado Pass: https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/Browse/NM/NM_Raton_192024_1954_250000.jpg StoryTrek (talk) 03:05, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

As said below, It's not good to go back to a previous edition. Usually items are corrected in subsequent versions.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

What I have seen in more recent sources (if there's a choice, almost always better to go with reliable recent sources) is that the headwaters for the Cimarron River are from the Sangre de Cristo Mountains. Are you seeing recent sources that say that the headwaters are only from the Palo Flechado Pass area?–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:17, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Item #5

N.M. Geographic Names Data Base, 1992. Compiled by Bob Julyan over more than five years of researching individual geographic names in New Mexico. Especially useful for historical names, name changes; and variants. Subsumed within this bibliographical reference is the much larger bibliography of the data base, comprising 235 references, including county histories, local histories, other historical works, correspondence, and numerous oral sources. https://geonames.usgs.gov/apex/f?p=138:4:0::NO:4:P4_FID,P4_OBJECTID,P4_FNAME:902214,31182177,Semarone StoryTrek (talk) 04:22, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi StoryTrek, I am having a hard time understanding all that you're saying here, but the one thing that I can comment on is that it's not good to go back to a previous edition. Usually items are corrected in subsequent versions.

I do understand the connection to Palo Flechado Pass, but I think that some of the headwaters for the Cimarron Watershed are from other areas... I think Wheeler's Peak, if I remember correctly.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:38, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm breaking this into individual subsections to address each separately. I got a little overwhelmed by the block of items and now it seems that they are separate issues.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Please try doing your own downstream trace via https://txpub.usgs.gov/DSS/streamer/web/ StoryTrek (talk) 04:48, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Yep, I ran that again. Please help me out. What are you wanting me to see?–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

See "The Cimarron River and its tributaries begin in the Sangre de Cristo Mountains, where three main tributaries (Cieneguilla, Sixmile, and Moreno creeks) converge at Eagle Nest Lake to form the Cimarron River." in this source on page 11.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:42, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Many thanks for your extra diligence in parsing issues, barriers & challenges. My UNless Otherwise DIRected (UNODIR) USNR-Ret. Mission was resolving why the first three Cimarron-class oiler (1939) hulls were named for watersheds honoring Native American Legends along the 1846-47 Santa Fe Military Road from Fort Leavenworth (Kanza Territory) via Stranger Creek Watershed's Ridgelines. (USGS Streamer Summary Report) https://txpub.usgs.gov/DSS/Streamer/api/3.14/js/report/report.html?debug=false&caller=streamer_report_summary&session_id=222255475538&basemap=terrain&basemapOpacity=1&UsaMask=true&UsaMaskOpacity=0.5&traceDir=up&StreamID=20109087&xWebMerc=-10578605.9427&yWebMerc=4722683.6341&reportType=summary GeoVenturing (talk) 19:12, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

During the Mexican-American War, Army of the West Topographers boosted their own egos by removing placenames that embeded Indigenous Peoples Traditional Ecological Knowledge ... See Anthropologist Keith Basso's "Wisdom Sits in Places" via http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-wisdom-sits-in-places/#gsc.tab=0 GeoVenturing (talk) 19:15, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Found GNIS validation for Semarone naming derivation:

https://geonames.usgs.gov/apex/f?p=gnispq:3:0::NO::P3_FID:902214

199.167.204.250 (talk) 01:30, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Etymology of name Cimarron (People)

Etymology In all likelihood, the name of this group is derived from the Spanish word cimarrón, meaning "wild" or "untamed". This word usually referred to runaways or castaways and is ultimately derived from the word for "thicket" in Old Spanish.[2] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Seminole

A less common folk etymology holds that cimarron comes from the Taino word si'maran meaning "the flight of an arrow".[3] Mann, Charles C. (2011). 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created. New York: Knopf. p. 331. ISBN 978-0-307-26572-2. StoryTrek (talk) 05:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Unless you can find something that ties that to this river, that kind of information might best go on the Cimarron (disambiguation) page. For instance, how a sentence is added before the "Cheyenne may refer to:" sentence in Cheyenne (disambiguation).–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

1763, from Creek (Muskogean) simano:li, earlier simalo:ni "wild, untamed, runaway," from American Spanish cimarron (see maroon (v.)). They fought wars against U.S. troops 1817-18 and 1835-42, after which they largely were removed to Indian Territory (Oklahoma). http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=maroon&allowed_in_frame=0 maroon (v.) Look up maroon at Dictionary.com "put ashore on a desolate island or coast," 1724 (implied in marooning), earlier "to be lost in the wild" (1690s); from maron (n.) "fugitive black slave in the jungles of W.Indies and Dutch Guyana" (1660s), earlier symeron (1620s), from French marron, said to be a corruption of Spanish cimmaron "wild, untamed," from Old Spanish cimarra "thicket," probably from cima "summit, top" (from Latin cyma "sprout"), with a notion of living wild in the mountains. Related: Marooned. StoryTrek (talk) 05:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't understand. I don't see a mention of the Cimarron River in this content. Did you see my comment?–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:22, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I found a source that refers to this specific river and added an etymology section. See what you think.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Several military officers engaged in the Mexican-American War recycled prior "lessons learned" during The Second Seminole War. The ambiguity of placenames like Cimarron River & Nine Mile Creek were simple but effective military mapping intelligence sharing methods. See Human Geography about Seminole Nation of Oklahoma relocated to the Canadian River Basin.GeoVenturing (talk) 20:08, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

>> The volunteers' actions during the various Indian Wars also bequeathed a mixed heritage. The Second Seminole War (1835-42), which pitted the Army against some 1,500 Seminole and African-American warriors in the Florida Everglades provided a particularly relevant example. The Seminoles used their knowledge of the nearly impenetrable Florida swamps to conduct ambushes whenever possible. In response, the Army shunned conventional tactics, such as trying to coordinate several converging columns over virtually impassable terrain, and adopted an unconventional approach.

Commanders established a series of heavily garrisoned posts to protect white settlements and to limit the Seminoles' ability to move with impunity. They also began active patrolling from those posts to find and destroy Indian villages and crops, as well as Indian war parties whenever possible. The tactics were both brutal and effective. Generals Zachary Taylor and Winfield Scott would apply similar measures during the occupation of Mexico. << https://history.army.mil/brochures/Occupation/Occupation.htm GeoVenturing (talk) 19:51, 1 April 2018 (UTC)