Talk:Character fighting techniques (Ranma ½)

Use of images

Each character is already linked to so that the reader can read up on and identify them; images on here then I think should largely be restricted to those illustrating the techniques in question. BrokenSphere 08:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't hurt to keep them as is for the character who don't have any descriptive technique images yet, in case people need a reminder who is referred to, rather than spending time looking up each of them. I agree that they could be removed at the point some of their abilities are individually shown. Dave 13:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Btw: I don't really have the motivation to look up and scan more of them, but anyone should feel free to help out, with Ryoga and Mousse as a basis/example. Also, with characters like Ukyo, where the text is brief and won't allow insertion of all images, please try to stick to the more significant or impressive ones. Dave 07:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Pulled the non-technique images. As to what deserves to be shown, I agree that significant techniques that appear more than once should be emphasized, no need to show all techniques. --BrokenSphere 19:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't really mind removing the images so much, (though I still disagree with doing so before any techniques are shown) but much preferred Ryoga's previous formatting. I thought I had created an excellent pattern. Dave 18:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Btw: Come to think of it, your Musanbetsu Kakuto Ryu page likewise displays plain character images (which I find improves the quality), so why do you want the images here gone immediately? Dave 18:53, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

The thing with those images for me at least, is that they're repetitive since they already appear in the respective characters' writeups or article space already. The emphasis of this page is supposed to be techniques, so the images on here should support this page's focus.

Re. the AGMA page, I didn't actually set up that page; I added a few technique images and only have replaced the Happosai manga one. The other pics showing Soun and Genma were already there. If, as with this page, the focus should be on the techniques only since the characters are already covered, then the manga one for Happosai can replace the current one on his page and the Soun and Genma ones removed. --BrokenSphere 03:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's not that I don't agree with you, just that I think it would have been better to wait until some technique scans had been added for the characters. It's obviously unneccessary for Ryoga, and possibly for Mousse and Herb as well (although I'd have preferred to have had at least 2 descriptive pictures for each of them before that).

However, the current formatting for the Ryoga images seems considerably less effective than previously. I'd rather not simply put them in a straight, somewhat unsynchronised, list, but keep the more visually pleasing alternating option (starting at right for each character, then left, then right, etc, or simply alternate them depending on the last previous one, depending on which you'd prefer), without descriptive text. Both because this apparently negates the option to auto-resize their display (Or is my memory mixing them up? In that case I apparently simply resized the originals), and because it seems unneccessary and patronising in the cases where it's perfectly synchronised, and the technique is self-explanatory enough to not create any confusion. Ryu's kick isn't all that evident, but Ryoga's are. I'll try to change it back somewhat and you can see what you think. Dave 10:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, never mind the 'always starting at right, or relative to the previous character' bit. We should probably simply use the alternating option, and adjust/fit the images depending on whatever looks and synchronises best with the text. Dave 11:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Hm, the thing I think with the current arrangement is that alternating the images left and right disrupts the flow of the text, which is why I had them all set to right. I'm going to set up the images on the AGMA page so that it focuses on the techniques and pulls out duplicate manga images like this one does. --BrokenSphere 00:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I disagree that showcasing technique images left and right depending on where they fit best disrupts the flow. I much prefer the current format for Ryoga's section at least, but as long as they're manageable to synchronise we could use the 'mostly' to the right' as a first option, just not a 'tyrannical'/all-encompassing one. Dave 13:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to get some other peoples' input on this, but as of right now, the only one that could go left would be the perfect Shishi Hokodan, and this is due to the volume of text devoted to its entry; everything else I think, should be to the right, again, for text flow. --BrokenSphere 19:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I still disagree and think the text flow reads better this way (or I wouldn't have used the format in the first place), and the alternating option in itself takes much less room (restrict far less upon each other and leaves room for more displays), but if you can somehow manage to synchronise them better than the previous attempt/on par with this one, I have no cathegorical problem with it. I just don't find it practical in general. Dave 19:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking along the lines of going back to an [edit] of mine, with some revisions:

• resize thumbed versions so they don't take up so much vertical space
• shift perfect Shishi Hokodan image left --BrokenSphere 19:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Nah, I don't like that layout at all. Alternating sides works much better to keep the images distinct to the context, and unintrusive to each other. Just listing them after each other forces us to make them smaller for room and turns them int a simple row of pictures floating together, rather than keeping them connected to each column and separate in the reader's mind. Why do you have such a problem with alternating some of them in case this looks better? Dave 21:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Like I've said, it has to do with the way alternating the images disrupts the flow of the text for me. Alternating them worked fine for the minor characters because each character has their own heading. If the techniques had headings as opposed to using bold type, then alternating them would work here for me. However, this would also blow up the TOC and several of the techniques are relatively minor. --BrokenSphere 21:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I just don't get the interrupting part, since I perceive it the opposite way, and will soon start to upload several other techniques (for Herb and Ryu to begin with), which I'd by far prefer to keep in the same format as Ryoga, especially given that the shorter text descriptions require extra vertical space. I also don't see any problem with using it in connection with bold markers, rather than unnecessary full headings.

Just to clarify, since you call it a '_Theory_ Of Constraints', would you agree that this would work better in terms of reduced space interference without having to frequently readjust them to too compressed sizes, especially for the shorter mentions? What about the listing part then? Alternating them also should help to keep them distinct, and as long as this praxis was followed consistency would be maintained to satisfaction. Dave 21:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

If you mean maintaining bold headings for the techniques vs. headers, then yes. Going back to what has been said elsewhere here, not all the techniques need to be illustrated, the most significant ones deserve focus. We can see how it looks after the additions you're thinking of doing. --BrokenSphere 22:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

After vainly trying to fit the images I actually see your point. If you manage to reorder their most prominent techniques (curently seen) to satisfaction with neither too long spaces in-between, nor confusing layout, that would be great. Ryoga's still look good to me as is, but if you can find a better solution to better fit with the others, why not. It feels pointless to be a mule about this. Dave 00:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, after some tinkering they actually seem to fit all right. Please tell me what you think.

Two months later, but here's what I think:

• The fit looks OK, but many of the images had to be shrunk to fit, which it can be argued, invalidates their use since they're too small resized anyway without having to look at the image in full to be of help.
• I think the number of images in use is on the high side; as mentioned earlier, I think the focus should be on the character's recurring techniques, which it would be helpful to illustrate; however, most of the techniques seen on here are only used once, thus they doesn't need an image. Some characters (e.g. Ukyo and Shampoo) are affected more than others, but we have Takahashi to blame for that. This would also help alleviate issues that may arise re. the overuse of fair use images on this particular page. BrokenSphere^{Msg me} 23:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think even the small images are large enough to illustrate the technique in question and, as you've noted, if we stuck to 1-arc techniques we'd have to scrap almost all of them. Shampoo and Ukyo have quite a lot of interesting skills they never openly use again, or at least not in the manga, Derek is the anime expert. And how are we to properly evaluate which ones have merit or not? For example, Ukyo's standard spatula shuriken aren't nearly as efficient as some of her other stuff (Neither are Shampoo's chui, but that's off-track). Ranma also uses a lot of 1-time techniques for that matter, even if that's kept in the sister-page.

I've also taken some care to show the extent of each shown efficiency and, given that they all fall under the 'specific illustration' clausule, I don't think there's any true need to cut them down, unlike with the minor characters warning (which I technically also find unnecessary), but I may be incorrect. If that is the case I suppose we have been forced into a corner and have to cut down some of them. Dave 18:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, we have Takahashi to blame for giving characters like Ukyo and Shampoo more techniques that are only seen once. Having descriptions is fine, but illustrating them is something else. As for having to scrap most of them, I know it sucks, but Derek and I have gone through the minor characters page and pulled 90+% of the pics and even then we likely still have issues because these are "list of" pages and thus the characters don't deserve their pics because they don't have their own articles. User:Durin I believe has been at the vanguard of this effort, for the reasons he's outlined here. You can let him know how you feel, but he'll likely give you the same answer he's given me, in that use of fair use images should be minimal to comply with the Wikimedia Foundation's mission. Personally I've had to pull many of my own uploads and speedy delete them to cut down on the # of fair use images used in other articles I've worked on, so I know how it feels.

But I think it would be better if we pull the pics ourselves and decide what to emphasize as opposed to having a 3rd party come in and pull all of them, as has happened with several of the Naruto character pages last week for what has been defined as "fair use image overuse". For those charas who hardly have recurring techniques, perhaps one at least can be kept for illustrative purposes, like Mousse pulling the weapons out of his sleeve. His other techniques that are illustrated really don't need the accompanying illustrations. BrokenSphere^{Msg me} 19:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with BrokenSphere, sadly. As he said, you can lay the blame at Takahashi's feet for having really lacking supporting character development (and no, the anime doesn't help in this regard, most of it's techniques are just as much 1 timers). The very fact that they are 1 timers really means that aren't that important, regardless of how nice they were in the plot they showed up in, and how much potential they had, the fact is they didn't realize that potential and were for whatever reasons tossed aside, or never gotten back to. But, remember, you get to keep the descriptions, there is nothing against that, just limit illustrations to the techniques that actually do have importance. Yes, that will hurt alot of characters on the illustration side, but it is just something you'll have to deal with I think.

Also, just as an additional warning, I've seen technique pages for other animes get the complete boot (AKA the dread D word). I think the policies for such are stupid and abused by the admins, but I have little say on the matter, so let's not give them yet another excuse. Derekloffin 07:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

But are you sure~about this? I remember reading a clausule stating that images illustrating specific plot points or descriptions are fine, and this is very much the case here. Dave 12:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Dave, if you can point to the clause, that would be helpful. Even if this is the case though, it can be argued that the current use of images is too much and that there's sufficient descriptive text to render the images "decorative". Again using Mousse as an example, his Hawk's Talon entry adequately describes the technique, we really don't need the accompanying image. Also, if we are trying to focus on the techniques, we should avoid too much plot summary. I've seen deletion debates arguing that the pages in question were overheavy on plot summary.

As for the deletion possibility, if this article is sourced (manga and anime ep cites) that should help defend against the OR claim. BrokenSphere^{Msg me} 15:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I haven't quite found what I remember, but this page: [1] one of the more relevant relevant in the situation, and it does mention:

All fair use images must be used as a part of a commentary on the material in question; it is not acceptable to use fair use images for mere decoration.

Although I remember one in the opposite direction, (Images used to illustrate plot points are fine) unless the memory is fuzzy, but I don't think so. As for references, is that really necessary? All the images state the exact volume and page they originate from within the image description itself. Dave 19:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

We can use the specific volume and page #s as a basis for the refs. I know the info was taken from the anime and manga, but unless we provide specific sources, this article is a target for an OR claim because it's currently unsourced.

Now while what you pointed out is true, the following is also mentioned in that section:

However a single famous or extremely important panel or series of panels, (a scene), is acceptable under fair use provisions when used in an article to which the image pertains and which makes a critical point about the scene or panel in question, and the point is more clearly made if illustrated.

and

it is important to use an insubstantial amount of the total comic book because the amount of the original work copied and the impact of the fair use on the commercial value of the work are critical considerations in US case law.

both of which can be used as counterarguments against illustrating so many techniques because the descriptive text describes them adequately. I raised similar issues on the Anything Goes MA talk page in re. to the images used there as well.

I may or may not have mentioned to you that I've had to pull many of my own image uploads and speedy delete them because they were orphaned or to reduce the # of fair use images on other pages I'm working on so the ones on there don't get all wiped out, so I know how it feels, especially after spending so much time looking for a good illustrative image, finding it, and setting it up only to have to eventually see them pulled or unused, it sucks, plain and simple. Unfortunately if we want to continue contributing to this encyclopedia we will have to adapt accordingly to changes that continue to be made re. the use of such images on an ongoing basis. BrokenSphere^{Msg me} 21:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't think the descriptions are enough in general, especially given the many esoteric techniques, (How are Ranma's Hiryu Shoten Ha variants supposed to be properly explained for example? You basically have to see them) so to me the images seem completely relevant to illustrate the context, but I suppose we can think through which ones are less characteristic. Ryoga's should probably all be kept for example. He uses all of them in many situations, and there's extensive text to fill out. All somewhat->very unclear entries should also be kept. Crowded entries like Kodachi or, to a lesser degree, Ukyo might be thinned down somewhat. Although they've both used variants of all the ones shown on several occasions except for the gunpowder flakes. (In Kodachi's case thrown different types of roses, and in Ukyo's through two different types of okonomiyaki projectiles) Although most of Konatsu's techniques are pretty **** irrelevant, as are a few of Ranma's and Genma's (the 'useless' cathegories, as well as non-techniques like the 'greeting supplex').

Also, the important one-arc characters like Mariko, Ryu and Herb generally don't have time to use several of their techniques more than once. Though I suppose the last two are comparatively safe, since they have several repeat moves. Shampoo and COlogne would have to be butchered, as would Mousse, despite the mostly very esoteric moves.

In any case I won't be able to insert lots of references, due to current severe time-contraints, but given that I've personally inserted virtually all of the ones available for the entire Ranma section, and the images here are all shown with volume and page numbers with a simple click I think anybody who wants to help out should have a comparatively simple task, especially if all of you collaborate. I'll be able to pinch in but not do all or even most of it. Dave 12:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I've checked it over and here are suggestions for ones to remove:

Ukyo’s “Tempura Flash” (I improved the description instead)

Cologne’s “Hiryu Shoten Ha” (It’s shown in Ranma’s profile), perhaps the “Bakusai Tenketsu” as well (shown in Ryoga’s) although it’s a very good illustration.

Mousse’s “Hawk’s Talons”.

Shampoo’s “Chow Mein Strike”

Kodachi’s “Scattered Bomb Shots” (Two unnecessary variations on throwing roses, and paralysis is one of her trademarks)

Maybe Principal Kuno’s “Pineapple Bombs”, although he uses it pretty frequently so I don't think it's a good idea.

Konatsu’s “Greetings Supplex”, “Mystery Bust” and “Sleepy Kunoichi Throw” (this one in exchange for regular shuriken-throwing, since it's the move he uses most frequently), possibly the “Toushintan as well.

Mariko’s “Ensnaring of the Lover Ribbons”

Rouge: Maybe, maybe the “Ashura Flash” Dave 13:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. As a supplement or affirmation of those, I propose:

• Ryoga: Take out his version of the bakusai tenketsu but keep Cologne's, which is better. Also take out sixth sense. It can be shown for Akane, so no need to show it twice, and the description is good.

He has lots of text to fill out, he's arguably the 3'rd main character, and his image is better due to showing the offensive capability of creating minor earthquake explosions. If Ranma gets lots of images Ryoga should at least get 4. Akane's danger sense is technically on another page, but I've removed Ryoga's image.

• Ukyo: Take out the flour bomb and super-sized okonomiyaki.

The flour bomb I agree about, although it's uses it several times. Removed. The okonomiyaki is kept because she's used different types of these projectiles, as well as her trademark profession, and an illustration is appropriate to show what they look like. The main issue is size constraints. I think the suggestions above are pretty much sufficient.

• Cologne: Take out ki projection (looks more like a jab at Happosai with her staff) and shark fist.

No it's a ki-blast, she was literally seeping energy right afterwards and the wall is destroyed beyond the reach of her staff. The image clearly shows some kind of projection. The shark fist is her most unique attack and should be kept. The Bakusai Tenketsu could be removed.

• Mousse: Take out one of the weapons container pics. The second one is probably better because it also shows them being used as projectiles. Take out scythes of sorrow.

The first weapon's container pics I agree about, but definitely not scythes of sorrow. He's one of the most important characters, It's his only other image, one of his most dangerous techniques, and an illustration is appropriate. Removed the former.

• Shampoo: Take out remote control accupressure, the description is fine.

I think the unusual nature makes it need an illustration. Two images is not much for such a prominent character. The noodles one the other hand are useless and not really a fighting technique. Removed.

• Principal Kuno: Maybe keep pineapple bombs over the sword shredder

The sword shredder is more unique, and less self-explanatory, if less useful. I'd prefer to keep both, but I suppose 1 image is enough for so little text. Removed.

• Kuno: Keep the blue thunder attack over the watermelon splitter.

Also lots of text, and a prominent character. Illustrations are warranted for both of them. If we get serious complaints despite the apparent clausules, we can go further.

• Taro: Remove ink blast. The description works or can be improved.

He needs some image and it's very unusual and as such in need of a description. Somebody else will have to repostition it however (the usual browser troubles).

• Kiima: Remove; description is fine.

Ditto.

• Lukkosai: Take out circle of fire.

It's a combination image for several techniques, but I agree that it's pretty self-explanatory and that he only needs one image as a minor character. Removed.

• Mariko: Take out the Love Rival Elimination Kick pic and improve the description. Take out pom pom spikes.

The love elimination kick I'll give you. Removed. I took out the web-whip instead of the pom-pom spikes, since it's similar to Kodachi's ribbon.

• Rouge: Take out comet shots and Ashura flash.

Removed the Ashura Flash. The comet shots are one of her 3 most prominent moves and might warrant some illustration, but I've removed it anyway.

• Saffron: Take out fire ball/fire column.

Agreed. Removed.

Before this discussion, the # of images was at 53; now it's at 50. BrokenSphere^{Msg me} 15:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC) Only because I hadn't had time to remove the others I mentioned. Currently it's down to 31. Some help to restructure for better layout and insert references would be appreciated. Dave 11:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Non-combat "techniques"

Could these be better integrated into the character descriptions and overviews of their abilities? Specifically I'm referring to those characters who can fly who have "flight" or some variation thereof listed as actual techniques. --BrokenSphere 02:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, their special abilities all grant an advantage in combat. Listing a long array of useless techniques as for Konatsu, Mariko, Genma or (to a lesser degree) Ranma, seems appropriate, but 1-2 significantly useful beneficicial talents are more vague, regarding if it's worth the trouble. However, if you wish to separate them in a similar manner feel free. Though preferably before the strictly combat-oriented ones, as they sometimes work as a basis for the rest (especially in Herb's case), or more frequently, serve to put them in context (attacking from afar due to flight). Dave 07:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Water-walking

"Water-walking: Being a grandmaster of martial arts, Cologne is shown as able to somehow "find foothold" even on the surface tension of the sea."

The foot hold was later shown to be a large fish that was mostly submerged. It wouldn't be hard to stand on something bigger than she is, so why is it still listed on the encyclopedia? 65.103.213.139 06:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)