Talk:Brazil at the 2023 Pan American Games

Orphaned references in Brazil at the 2023 Pan American Games

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Brazil at the 2023 Pan American Games's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "manual":

• From Gymnastics at the 2023 Pan American Games: "Santiago 2023 Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Panam Sports. 1 September 2022. Retrieved 12 May 2023.
• From Taekwondo at the 2023 Pan American Games – Qualification: "Taekwondo" (PDF). www.santiago2023.org/. Santiago 2023. Retrieved 4 November 2022.
• From Tennis at the 2023 Pan American Games: "Tennis" (PDF). www.santiago2023.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. Retrieved 5 November 2022.
• From Karate at the 2023 Pan American Games – Qualification: "Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. 11 April 2022. Retrieved 10 October 2022.
• From United States at the 2023 Pan American Games: "Santiago 2023 Qualification Systems Manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Panam Sports. 11 September 2022. Retrieved 11 November 2022.
• From Water skiing at the 2023 Pan American Games – Qualification: "Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. 11 April 2022. Retrieved 12 October 2022.
• From Rowing at the 2023 Pan American Games: "Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. 11 April 2022. Retrieved 5 November 2022.
• From Water polo at the 2023 Pan American Games: "Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. 11 April 2022. Retrieved October 17, 2022.
• From Roller sports at the 2023 Pan American Games: "Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. 11 April 2022. Retrieved 19 October 2022.
• From Judo at the 2023 Pan American Games – Qualification: "Santiago 2023 Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Panam Sports. 11 April 2022. Retrieved 4 June 2022.
• From Boxing at the 2023 Pan American Games – Qualification: "Boxing" (PDF). www.santiago2023.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. Retrieved 5 November 2022.
• From Cycling at the 2023 Pan American Games – Qualification: "Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. 11 April 2022. Retrieved 27 October 2022.
• From Fencing at the 2023 Pan American Games: "Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. 11 April 2022. Retrieved 4 June 2022.
• From Rugby sevens at the 2023 Pan American Games: "Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. 11 April 2022. Retrieved 12 June 2022.
• From Cuba at the 2023 Pan American Games: "Santiago 2023 Qualification Systems Manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Panam Sports. 11 September 2022. Retrieved 30 September 2022.
• From Bowling at the 2023 Pan American Games – Qualification: "Santiago 2023 Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Panam Sports. 11 April 2022. Retrieved 4 June 2022.
• From Beach volleyball at the 2023 Pan American Games: "Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. 11 April 2022. Retrieved 20 October 2022.
• From Taekwondo at the 2023 Pan American Games: "Qualification System manual" (PDF). www.panamsports.org/. Pan American Sports Organization. 11 April 2022. Retrieved 4 November 2022.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT⚡ 02:52, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Cleanup tag

I've again replaced the {{cleanup}} tag on this article. The tag should not be removed until the issues the tag describes are remedied: there is an undefined reference in the article, and almost all of the sections contain empty boilerplate tables. -- Mikeblas (talk) 14:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Instead of blindly edit warring and reverting, you would have seen there is no more undefined references on this article. You can also see the games have not started, ergo the tables cannot be filled at this time. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 15:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Note that you were the first to revert, and removed a maintenance tag after making zero effort at repairing the issue it identified. If the tables can't be filled in, they shouldn't be in the article per WP:CRYSTALBALL, obviously. Empty boilerplate isn't the mark of a quality article. I've updated and expanded the list in the cleanup tag. -- Mikeblas (talk) 15:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

sp

Response to third opinion request:

The main point of conflict seems to be that this article includes tables that are for future events and red links for people or events who may or may not merit an article in the future. WP:REDLINK tells us, "Add red links to articles to indicate that a page will be created soon or that an article should be created for the topic because the subject is notable and verifiable." Red links help Wikipedia grow and should not be discouraged. That being said, it is important to consider the "notable and verifiable" aspect of WP:REDLINK. Could you create an article for that red-linked topic today? If the answer is no, you should probably remove the red link. I also noticed that some of the red links are there because an existing article was not correctly linked to a term or phrase. For example, Men's Stand-Up Paddleboarding is not a Wikipedia article but should be linked to Standup paddleboarding. So some cleanup is needed there and with other similar links, making a cleanup notice about red links a helpful reminder to other editors. For the tables, I am responding using Wikipedia:Current event templates. WP:CET notes that "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball" or a placeholder for information on events that may or may not occur. Thus, it is not appropriate to include results tables or participant lists for future sporting events. Instead, copy and save those tables and lists in your sandbox, adding them to this article once the events' participants and results are published in a reliable secondary source. It is fine to leave the headers for the events, with a statement about the scheduled day of the event; WP:CET allows for this as long as the information is sourced. There is also a template created for this type of article. It allows the article to exist, while also letting readers know that not all results are available. Please do add to the top of the article: Rublamb (talk) 19:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, Rublamb! I've removed a couple of the many blank tables here, and added the template you've suggested. I'll carry out similar edits on the other "Country at the 2023 Pan American Games", which are in similarly poor condition. -- Mikeblas (talk) 15:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

One person's opinion doesn't = the correct way. Removing tables is unnecessary as these games start next week and will be filled up. Instead hiding them would be better. Also the event has not started so using the current sporting event is wrong Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 16:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted most of your edits that removed tables as its highly unconstructive. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 16:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

These articles are all in terrible condition. I can't understand your resistance to improving them, or marking them for improvement. This is'nt one person's opinion; see the AfD discussion as well as the repeatedly referenced Wikipedia policies. Since the tables are empty, there's nothing destructive in removing them. -- Mikeblas (talk) 16:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

You don't understand MSE events clearly. How can these articles be improved if the games have not started yet? Hiding the tables is a more constructive way of 'hiding' these if they aren't warranted at this time (instead of just removing/blanking them). Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 16:42, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

You are correct. A 3O is just that--an opinion. However, it is an opinion based on Wikipedia policy. It is great that you are enthusiastic about adding content to this article. However, please remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper or crystal ball. You cannot say for sure who will participate in a sporting event in the future; even those scheduled to participate are subject to change. I was being generous in suggesting that you label this article current as a way to justify its place in Wikipedia. If this is not a current event, then this content has no place in Wikipedia. Those are really the only choices I could find. The tables can be hidden or removed (and later replaced); you are correct that either approach will work. With regards to what improvements can be made: As I detailed above, the empty tables are pre-populated with red links that will never have a match in Wikipedia. In some cases, this is something to link to and those should be corrected. I gave one example in my response. Another is a red link to "swimming". This could be improved by linking to an actual article "Swimming (sport)" rather than leaving the red link. Many red-linked terms will never match a Wikipedia article: men's recurve, team compound, women's duel, women's team, Men's C-1, B-boys, etc. These links can be removed to improve the article. There are also several red links to main articles that do not exist. WP:REDNO specifically says, "Because they are useless as navigation aids, do not create red links in: Templates such as Main. So this is another area where this table needs improvement; these links should be removed until such an article exists. As long as this article has issues, other editors have the option of labeling content as needing improvement or removing flawed content because it does not adhere to Wikipedia's guidelines. You can help resolve this by fixing the issues with red links and hiding/removing the tables until the events take place and have sources. Rublamb (talk) 21:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

There's little difference between removing the blank tables and hiding them. (Presumably, you mean commenting them out with <!-- HTML comments -->. MOS:COMMENT explains how HTML comments are meant to be used, and it's not to hide templates in article sources. The style guide says Avoid adding too many invisible comments because they can clutter the wiki source for other editors., and in these articles many large blocks would be commented away while we wait for someone to populate them.) Nothing is deleted (usually) on Wikipedia; the boilerplate text can be copied from previous versions of the article, and it's not hard to build templates on your own computer in a text file to keep around when the data is ready. The appropriate solutions -- drafts and sandboxing -- have been recommended to you before, but for some reason you won't accept them. Wire-framed, incomplete articles aren't appropriate for visible article space. -- Mikeblas (talk) 01:13, 12 October 2023 (UTC)