Talk:Bravo Award

2009 winner

Does not match RSSSF page -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:21, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

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Notability issue

@Walter Görlitz: Would integrating the following sources in the incipit warrant the removal of the notability disclaimer?

• This The Sportsman's article on the award
• This coverage by Diario AS interviewing Iker Casillas who defines the award his obsession.
• This coverage by Marca, which defines the award as the Ballon d'Or of under-21 players
• This coverage by Mundo Deportivo, which presents the Golden Boy award as a replacement for the Bravo Awards.
• This coverage by Sky Sport (Germany), which compare the Bravo to the Golden Boy award.

There are also other dozens of other notable sources mentioning the award in relation to player being awarded, while also defining the Bravo as 'historical' (Sport). For instance, this and this. --Tanonero (msg) 19:21, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Tanonero, thanks for pinging me about this. You don't need to. So here are the problems. Only the Sportsman, mundodeportivo, and sky.de items have an author. mediotiempo is an editorial. Only the Sportsman is more than a passing mention. That means that there is only one RS here that supports its notability. See more at WP:N. In short, being compared to a notable award is a way to help the reader understand what field the award is in, not how notable the award is itself. For instance, everyone knows the Grammy Awards are for music and are the pinnacle of musical achievement. That is why the Juno Awards are compared to them, even when discussed in Canada. I'm not stating that the Juno s are not a notable award, simply giving a comparison. Perhaps WP:FOOTY should enter the discussion. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:05, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Coming here from the post on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Bravo_Award_notability_issue. Given this page passed an AfD vote that stated it was not notable 3 years ago, with the outcome being deemed that the article was notable, wouldn't that serve as enough to remove the tag? Obviously more sources would definitely improve the article, but doesn't that past vote solve the issue of the tag? RedPatchBoy (talk) 22:47, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, @RedPatchBoy:. Considering that the tag precedes the AfD, I guess that they forgot to remove it after it was decided to keep the article (and overwhelmingly so). I'm removing the tag now. --Tanonero (msg) 00:20, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

An AfD does not mean the article has proven it is notable, no. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:48, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

It seems we have hit a conundrum. I think it's a little unproductive to stick a tag on an an article for three years with no solution on the horizon (other than perhaps integrating the list into the Guerin Sportivo's main article, which, however, did not seem to be the consensus emerging from the AfD).

I've searched all main Italian newspapers' archives, sports focused and not, to no avail. Internationally, beyond the above-mentioned The Sportsman, I've found only two other articles specifically about the award (and not its yearly iteration): this from The Sports Mirror and this from Blogfutboero.com, but I am not sure these can be considered up to the standard required here.

This situation leads me to the conclusion that the way notability is assessed for this kind of awards is somewhat questionable. I believe the award – given also its yearly nature – does not lend itself easily to the possibility of being covered by ad hoc articles talking about it (rather than to whom it is given on a yearly basis). Perhaps we should assess its notability differently, based on the fact that every time the award was given, this action was promptly covered by international media outlets. Isn't this an indication of the notability of the award, when the notability cannot be demonstrated with pieces talking about the award with no reference to its annual assignment? --Tanonero (msg) 18:46, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Notability is assed by the references in the article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I get that, but I am saying that you are deeming the references in the article as insufficient to establish notability, requiring a coverage that may simply not exist for this type of award. References about awards are usually about whom they are given to (and we have plenty of those) rather than about the award per se. What I am contesting is that the lack of the latter signifies lack of notability. --Tanonero (msg) 20:58, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Despite the exception used for statistics that RSSSF.com has in footballer articles, it's still user generated and not a RS. The rest are passing mentions when discussing the players, not the award, save https://www.thesportsman.com/articles/bravo-to-young-talent. Again, referencing the music field, this is what we woulc all a single-source award. The Golden Boy is awarded by consensus across multiple countries, publishers and writers, not to mention players and managers. How is this award's recipient selected? What is the methodology? So little is known. The fact that it has been discontinued is also telling. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:13, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I fail to grasp the relevance of those arguments. What do the complexity of the methodology or the fact that it's been discontinued have to do with the notability of the award? --Tanonero (msg) 10:46, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

That's OK. I fail to grasp the notability of this award based on the references supplied in the article. Ultimately, the complexity is not now, nor was it ever, a concern. The fact that it was a single publication that determined who received this "award" is the key. If they had stated that it was a poll of all sport journalists across Europe, that would make it more relevant. For all we know the award was granted to the player whose name was selected by a dart thrown by the magazine's publisher. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:13, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

According to this, the jury was composed by sports journalists from the most important news outlets across Europe (besides the Guerin and Radiocorriere TV). I guess that what remains for me to do is find a reliable secondary source explaining that (unless you consider the one I just posted as one). --Tanonero (msg) 21:52, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Is di Vincenzo Paliotto a recognized sports journalist? If not, no, that is not a reliable source. Once again, the fact that so little is written about this results in me thinking it fails notability. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:57, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

It appears as though he is: https://www.amazon.it/Libri-Vincenzo-Paliotto/s?rh=n%3A411663031%2Cp_27%3AVincenzo+Paliotto Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:01, 15 March 2021 (UTC)