Talk:Bravanese people

Split

I split this from the Barawa article, as per the discussion at Talk:Barawa. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 02:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Brava people

It seems to me that the Brava people is discussing the same topic. A merge is due IMHO --Moglex 15:02, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we only need one article. However, the 'Brava people' article is unreferenced so it is difficult to determine what, if any, text should be merged. I suggest simply redirecting 'Brava people' to this article if the situation hasn't changed after a week (at the most: there's really nothing that compels us to keep the unreferenced text). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Copyright infringement; unreliable source

I just removed about 4 paragraphs from the article, as the text was copied from this website. The article did have an inline citation for the website, but I do not believe it is attributable as a reliable source. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I've removed additional text that was copied from (and cited) this website. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Swahili dispute

I cross-posted the following to Talk:Mogadishu as it involves a larger dispute concerning the relation (or non-relation) of Somali and Swahili topics:

I saw that Bravanese people had been added (then removed, then added etc.) to Category:Swahili. I should point out that the word "Swahili" does not even appear in that article (perhaps a minor point, since it does appear in related articles Bravanese language and Barawa).

-- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Folks, the Swahili are a mixed people. There is no conflict with them being Swahili and also "of mixed Persian, Arab, Portuguese and Spanish origin". (Though that list is of course incomplete.) The Brava are Swahili speaking. kwami (talk) 01:54, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Origins

What on earth do the Bravanese have to do with Somali Bantus? They don't even "look" Bantu. There are many sources that state that they are descendant from Swahili sailors, along with major Arab and Persian mixture, and often as well Somali despite speaking Swahili. AcidSnow (talk) 14:36, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The Bravanese aren't really an ethnic group per se, but rather a confederation of peoples from diverse origins within Brava/Barawa. There are thus some individuals that have Bantu (where their Chimwiini dialect originates from) or Eyle ancestry, while others are largely of Yemeni, Omani, Persian or Somali heritage. Certain individuals also have Portuguese ancestry. Middayexpress (talk) 15:59, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Accoding to other sources that seem to be relatively true. But most don't mention "Bantu" at all other than the Swahili people. So I don't really see why you reverted me. The same can be said about the Bajuni people as well. AcidSnow (talk) 14:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes and no. Most Bajuni are descended from early Bantu settlers, the original Swahili speakers (Swahili is today a lingua franca for most other eastern Bantus, not their mother tongue). They belong to the same Northern Swahili or Sabaki Bantu group as the Pokomo, Mijikenda, etc., not as later Bantu arrivals like the Kikuyu. The Bajuni now often have varying degrees of indigenous hunter-gatherer admixture (related to the Hadza and Sandawe), Austronesian admixture through assimilation of Indonesian migrants (that's where their double outriggers were inherited from), and Cushitic admixture through absorption of early Cushitic settlers in the southern Somalia/northern Kenya area (that's how many of the Afro-Asiatic loanwords in their language were acquired). Individuals may also have Persian or Khaleeji admixture through contact with Muslim merchants. There are thus as well a number of Arabic (Afro-Asiatic) and Farsi (Indo-European) vocabulary terms in Kibajuni. I understand that the language may also have some Turkish loanwords, which were probably derived secondarily from Farsi. Middayexpress (talk) 16:02, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes and now. As you stated yourself, the author of the book assumes that the people who lived in the region were Bantus/Swahilis because of Azania. However, it does not reflect actual studies on the orgins of the Azania which are actually Afro-Asiatic. The same can be said about the Bravanses people. I have gone ahead and fixed it. AcidSnow (talk) 21:56, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Wait a second, didn't you say the Bantu never lived in Somalia, let alone any other part of the Horn of Africa until after the 1800's? In fact, there are plenty of sources that mention this. Those that don't, however, are pseudo-history. Case closed Midday, it seems that I have won this round. AcidSnow (talk) 18:28, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

The Azanians were indeed Cushitic. They were in part absorbed by the Bantu ancestors of the Bajuni. As such, they are the early Cushitic settlers whose language is the point of origin of many of the Afro-Asiatic loanwords in the Bantu Kibajuni language. Middayexpress (talk) 15:46, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Um Midday, at this point I am specifically talking about the Bravanese. Even so, there's no way the Bantu went that far up into Somalia. So how could the majority of the group or even a few families be so? AcidSnow (talk) 15:59, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Brava is in far southern Somalia. The majority of families obviously aren't Bantu, but there are a few with such ancestry. This was after all the only area in the south where the Zanzibar Sultan had an actual base on the ground. I'm not sure if that's when the local Bantu dialect was first spoken there, but perhaps it was. Middayexpress (talk) 16:35, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

You do know that they constantly killed the governors, soilders and merchants right? If my memory also serves me correct, they brought only a few soilders. These soilders were even feared leaveing the "fort" they were stationed in LOL. So once again their "power" was highly limited. Nobody is stupid enough to bring their families to Somalia during this period since Somalis are highly xenophobic. Barawa is also more than 500 milieus from the border as well. So what's the point of going so far to get killed? Anyways, it's most likely recently since the Tunni clan speaks Somali. AcidSnow (talk) 18:54, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Understood. Through what mechanism do you think Kibajuni came to be so widely spoken in the town? I understand it rivals Somali there in terms of usage, but is spoken nowhere else. Middayexpress (talk) 19:11, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Are we talking about the Bajuni islands? If so, probably to sell fish since it don't think people in Kimsayo ate fish until recently. Though, the language will soon die out anyways. AcidSnow (talk) 19:32, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant Chimwiini. The Bajuni have always spoken Kibajuni; they aren't ethnically Somali. Middayexpress (talk) 19:59, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you want the book on them being fearful to leave? Also, can the Bravanese even be defined as an ethnic group? Their history is quite intertwine with the rest of the Somalis. AcidSnow (talk) 19:38, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Through what mechanism do you think Chimwiini came to be so widely spoken in Brava? I agree that the Bravanese aren't really an ethnic group, but simply the residents of the town. Middayexpress (talk) 19:59, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok so I guess I can change it from "ethnic group" to "group". I am not really sure how it happened though. Maybe it too evolved as a trade language? Though it seems unlikely since it would have been lost already since almost 150 years of no contact with other speakers. Though loss of contact would explain why it's not the same as what is spoken in Zanzibar. AcidSnow (talk) 20:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Group is alright. That Chimwiini evolved as a trade language is possible, maybe even likely. However, there are also some families of actual Bantu descent in Brava. Middayexpress (talk) 20:26, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

There were only two soilders sent so it's highly unlikely that any are.[1] Even so Midday, it wasn't the full Bantu but rather the Swahilli. Anyways, I can't find a source for the Khonians. AcidSnow (talk) 20:29, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

They probably were Swahili. However, two officers is obviously not enough to make many residents of a town speak a foreign language, and one from an entirely separate family at that. Middayexpress (talk) 20:57, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

That's the point. AcidSnow (talk) 21:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, so it's more likely that the Chimwiini language spread through some other means. Middayexpress (talk) 15:47, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you know see how it's unlikely for any to be descendent from them? AcidSnow (talk) 16:08, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

How then did that language come to be so widely spoken in the town? I think it was perhaps recent given the fact that it's simply a dialect of Swahili. Middayexpress (talk) 16:50, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

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