Talk:Brandywell, Isle of Man

BRD Bold, Revert, Discuss

I changed the intro (lede, lead) to accurately-reflect the current (2015) situation for anyone searching for information as stated in the title - Brandywell to read "Brandywell... a left curve on the TT circuit..." It's not a corner or bend, witnessed by the Primary Sources of Google Maps and imagery. I also added an image to convey the course-direction.

This was immediately reverted by controlling editor @Agljones: who regularly breaches not own and has been historically allowed to singularly control the IoM articles. The edit-summary complained of duplication - there was no duplication - the prose stated repeatedly variations on 'The Brandywell Corner' - there is no evidence of this, it a long sweeping bend known as Brandywell (or a series of curves, requiring adjustments at racing speeds)

The name is recognised for the TT course landmark, and the intro needs to be summarised; its not known for being a wider area of bleak mountainside. Names can be readliy identified with; course markers 11th, 31st, 32nd etc cannot PLUS abbreviations should be deprecated as non-first language speakers may not recognise the pecularities - eg 1A Kat - may mean a lot to Spanish speakers (Primera Category = 1st Class) but not to those from GB.

In undoing agljones' revert - as the BRD - I also have deleted all "The" and "Corner" - using as the title states, simply "Brandywell". The Brandywell does not Google-map search. I have also arranged a new section heading for "The Brandywell", historically as a water-well for shepherds.

This is a perfect example of the control this singular editor will not relinquish - not allowing anyone else to contribute. His style is inappropriate for Wikipedia, too cluttered, too repetitive and chronologically often not correctly-sequenced.

I will include @Doncram: and @Andrew Davidson: as observers as it seems very few are interested in contributing.

This wont last long but it needs to be memorialsed for admins - I really need to do something about the control-freaks on Wikipedia not allowing others to input. When I get the chance I will compile a list of all the deletions and reversions to my contributions by agljones.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 12:21, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

• The original feature is a well, as noted, and this existed before people started racing motorcycles there. Jenkinson's Practical Guide to the Isle of Man (1874) documents the locality in detail and says that the well gave its name to the nearby road junction, which it calls Brandy Well Junction. I'm not especially bothered about the exact title we use for the place provided it is clear and the alternative forms are also available as redirects. Andrew D. (talk) 12:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

It is the Snaefell Mountain Course used for Isle of Man TT Races and Manx Grand Prix. It is not the TT Course. Provide a reference that it is the "TT Course." The official description is Snaefell Mountain Course. If there is just an emphasis on the motor-cycle feature the article will likely be nominated for an AFD and be deleted. The area is known as Brandywell including the nearby sheep-pens and pre-dates the motor-cycle racing. The parishes are part of the local government authorities in the Isle of Man and in recent years many legal responsibilities have been devolved from the central Isle of Man Government. That "boring archaic stuff and the bit about archaic parishes and the moorland that nobody is interested in 2015" is important to prove notability which is required by Wikipedia. It is your own WP:OWN which is causing problems in developing articles including your own "tub-thumping rhetoric." It is also a public road used in both directions for road traffic and is a corner with a road junction. It is a substantial (short) corner or bend(much shorter than Windy Corner/Brandish Corner/Verandah...etc) It is a public road junction which previously had a very prominent sheep-gate and also an accident black-spot in respect to fatal road traffic accidents. It is not possible to define an area as a curve from just looking at Google Maps. This is not a problem as the map co-ordinates are displayed in the article or switch to the Google Web search. The Brandywell Corner is a very difficult, substantive (short) corner/bend/road junction for normal road traffic and not a series of curves even for racing motor-cycles which is demonstrated by the on-board racing motor-cycle videos. I have already given a list of articles if you would like to contribute. There are many IoM articles outside of the motor-cycle network of articles most of which I have never edited or even read. Care is often shown to chronologically correctly-sequence articles. Again, I cannot find the multiple edits and your contributions that you refer too. I do not own or control articles and it is particularly inappropriate to include general comments about "control freaks" in the same paragraph that includes comments about "all" my alleged deletions and revisions. There is no need for over personalised comments on Wikipedia and this is the second set of personal comments in one week(the Life on Mars comment was particularly inappropriate as it was used by Kate McCann (in the same context) after being arrested by the Portuguese Police due to the disappearance of her daughter Madeleine McCann). As regards to the inappropriate style for Wikipedia (I guess that you have not looked carefully at my user-page.) The only stipulation is the use of plain English and in comparison the revisions made to the executive summary of the Windy Corner article by another contributor used such bad English it was almost completely unreadable. Also, the correct spelling of the area at the 6th Milestone is Appledene rather than Apageledene. NB Issues of Original Search (OR) do not apply to talk pages. agljones(talk)20:20, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Agljones, your comment is a bit long and rambling. I can understand how others maybe are being driven crazy a bit by long comments that do not get quickly to a relevant point. A bunch of what you say doesn't relate at all to how this article could or should be improved, as far as i can tell. So what about a previous version of the Windy Corner article...it is GONE, it has been redirected, and it has nothing to do with this article. For another example, you comment about "the correct spelling of the area at the 6th Milestone is Appledene rather than Apageledene.", but as far as i know that location is different, and was not covered within any version of THIS article as far as i can tell. And the comment that "NB Issues of Original Search (OR) do not apply to talk pages" has nothing to do with anything said here before, as far as I can tell.

About the general sentiment that an article about a corner of the race course should cover that topic, and not be about moorland or whatever nearby, I agree based on my experience with the the Windy Corner, Isle of Man article up to when it was redirected. In general comments like "If there is just an emphasis on the motor-cycle feature the article will likely be nominated for an AFD and be deleted" are not helpful. Padding out an article with irrelevant other stuff does not help...just makes work because that stuff needs to be deleted and argued about. Adding irrelevant stuff to keep the article from being deleted is not helpful. If there's not enough really relevant to say, maybe an article in fact should be redirected (say to List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course#Brandywell). Agljones, any legitimate point you have about THIS article is lost amidst everything else said, I guess. Don't pad the article, and don't pad the Talk page! Please all do follow the BRD process. Cheers, --doncram 20:46, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

• The issue in the BRD process is quite clear. Provide a reference for the name TT Circuit in a secondary reference as per the Wikipedia rules or the article will be reverted. Provide a photograph which does not have a copyright issue or the photograph will be subject to the Wikipedia copyright process and removed.
• The issue in the BRD process is quite clear. Do not resort to WP:OWN and define the limits of the article or what can or cannot be included. Do not resort to WP:OWN in defining the structure of the Isle of Man network of articles. Do not resort to WP:OWN in respect to what content or articles will be include the list of corners or what type of policy will be employed. Do not resort to WP:OWN in comments that refer to "padding." The issue in the BRD process is quite clear and resort to WP:OWN and the content addition, deletion, merging, redirecting or general policy will be reverted.
• The issue in the BRD process is quite clear. Provide a neutral point of view, provide evidence of notability from at a least a single neutral secondary source. Also, do not rely completely on articles from articles from the internet as they tend to disappear and become untraceable. Check against another secondary source to check if the spelling is correct.
• The issue in the BRD process is quite clear. If there is an issue about inclusion of the parishes or moorland, challenge the issue with a secondary sources from articles as per the Wikipedia rules.
• The issue in the BRD process is quite clear. There was no consensus about either the deletion or merging of the Windy Corner and there has been an incorrect interpretation of the decision.
• The issue in the BRD process is quite clear. I cannot find the multiple edits and your contributions that you refer too. In respect to the edit of the 24th May 2014, do not use biased newspaper reports to support a particular point of view. Wikipedia rules state that a neutral point of view has to be observed and an alternative point of view included from another source. Also statistical research provided that the edit was incorrect and biased.
• The issue in the BRD process is quite clear. Do not use resort to personal comments about my style being inappropriate for Wikipedia. The only requirement from Wikipedia is that plain English is used. It is incorrect to comment on my style being inappropriate as a large percent of edits are updating race results and there is no issue of an inappropriate style.
• The issue in the BRD process is quite clear. Do not make personal comments about being a "control freak" or "sort yourself out" and "IOM resident appears partisan non-neutral COI."
• The issue in the BRD process is quite clear. Do not make personal comments about "Life on Mars" as this particularly inappropriate as it was used by Kate McCann after being arrested by the Portuguese Police due to the disappearance of her daughter Madeleine McCann.

agljones(talk)22:54, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

photo status

An editor tagged the article and/or its top photo for copyright violation, using {{copypaste}} template. I removed it because it appears from the photo info that it is used in accordance with its CC commons license. Also, the "copypaste" template is for marking text that is copied from somewhere else, not photos. --doncram 00:06, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Spurious addition of inappropriate tagging. I had to abandon this page, taking off my watchlist, because of singular editor control, but now I am collecting evidence of my contributions being deleted or otherwise interfered with. The quotation "Wikipedia has rules about graphic content and placement of images.." or some such nonsense spring to mind. The article page history shows 13 changes from agljones, AKA 11thmilestone since I added the image.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 01:03, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

BRD BOLD, revert, discuss cycle Discussion General areas and location of Brandywell

Section was titled "BRD" unhelpfully IMO. Retitled by me to a meaningful topic, as "Is Brandywell a general area or what?" I mean for the title to be objective. --doncram 18:28, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Agljones changed the section title to "BRD BOLD, revert, discuss cycle" and I changed it back again, because this section is about whether Brandywell is a general area or not. I feel like I should open a discussion section "how to title discussion sections" at User talk:agljones, but I hesitate because in the past they asked me not to post there, though they post at my Talk page all the time. Hmm. Why do they want to title every section on every talk page the same? --doncram 01:13, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

There is substantive evidence that areas such as Brandywell, Keppel gate and the Windy Corner exists as general areas. The general area of Brandywell is located in the vicinity of the road junction of the Isle of Man B10 Beinn-y-Phott / Brandywell Road and the B28 Ballaugh Glen Road. The conclusion for the BRD process that there is evidence under Wikipedia rules to define independent notability WP:N for the general area of Brandywell which is emphasised by a previous editor changing the name from Brandywell Corner to Brandywell without gaining a consensus. agljones(talk)12:00, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Photo that has been in and out of article. Photo suggests that Brandywell is the name of a curve of the Snaefells Mountain Course

The current article states that Brandywell is the name of a curve of the Snaefells Mountain Course. I don't get what conclusion you mean. --doncram 17:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

In this edit today, with edit summary implying that this "BRD" discussion section supports the edit, an editor changed the lede of the article to assert that Brandywell is an area of open moorland, rather than a named corner of the Snaefell Mountain Course. I am suspicious because this is just like contention at former Windy Corner, Isle of Man article where the same was asserted. Upon examination of sources, the claims there turned out to be false by any reasonable interpretation of the sources. Here, the same sense of battleground behaviour is conjured up in my view by the accompanying change of photograph included in the article. The photo removed (which I include at right, here) supports the fact that "Brandywell" is the name of a corner in the TT race course. Of course the photo doesn't say anything about whether Brandywell might be used more broadly, but I look at its removal as argumentative. It is well enough established that Brandywell is in fact a named corner. I am reverting the edit, per wp:BRD process (an editor boldly made a edit, I am calling that edit controversial and am reverting it, now do let's discuss it).

For discussion: does someone seriously believe that Brandywell is not the name of a corner of the SMC? Note, you don't get to win an argument by removing a photo. --doncram 16:57, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Summary or conclusion

The requirement for the BRD discussion is a process on based on “policies, guidelines, or common sense.” The revised article of 17:22, 27 December 2016 [1] (which was reverted by the edit 16:59, 30 December 2016 [2]) corrected a series of anomalies, mistakes and misunderstandings in the article. It is very unclear why all these improvements were reverted despite the same editor User:doncram tagging similar citations for correction in another article. The citations reverted by the edit of 16:59, 30 December 2016 by User:doncram do not support independent verifiability WP:V for the lede sentence or independent nobility for the article. WP:N, WP:FALSE

It is unlikely that Wikipedia would justify two separate articles for the areas of “Brandywell” / ‘Brandywell Cottage’ and a separate article for the nearby corner of “Brandywell Corner.” As the two areas are linked by joint entomology, areas of open moorland and share the same road junction it is likely that “common sense” would prevail and Wikipedia administrators would suggest merger of the two articles. It is very ambiguous why the editor User:doncram has again raised the issue in respect to the “moorland’’ in this context. The issue of the ‘moorland’ was addressed by the editor user:Andrew Davidson in the edit 12:39, 12 March 2015 [3] for this talk:page and BRD (User: Rocknrollmancer 12:21, 12 March 2015) and “moorland” as stated in the Jenkinson publication (1874) which actually reinforces the process of establishing independent notability for the article as shown by the revised edit of 17:22, 27 December 2016. WP:N Also, the reverted description for “the Brandywell Corner” of the edit 16:59, 30 December 2016 does not pass WP:GEOROAD as it is not “….the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable and independent of the subject” WP:N and a Geographical feature cannot inherit the independent notability;- “….of organizations, people, or events.” (WP:N;- see previous comments and talk:page Windy Corner, Isle of Man) Former ‘historic’ names have Encyclopedic value and should be incorporated into the article.

It is a suggestion by Wikipedia that editors should first ask to clarify the intentions of editor. WP:CIVIL The editor User:doncram has not asked if the issue of the removal of the photograph may have been a mistake or if the current editing period had finished as the edit of 17:22, 27 December 2016 established a sub-section of the ‘Brandywell Corner, A18 Snaefell Mountain Road.’ The editor User:doncram has also not established with the originator editor of the article what was really intended for the description or general direction of the article and how it should be developed. In general, editors should note that the issues of Circular reporting and ‘feedback loops’ in respect to secondary sources should be avoided. Wikipedia does not allow the issues of Common knowledge and Confirmation bias to disrupt the normal editing process by concentrating on a single issue of a ‘non-notable bend’ in a commercial blog style as shown in the edit of 16:59, 30 December 2016 for this article. WP:NOTBLOG, WP:LOCALCONSENSUS
agljones(talk)10:12, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Okay, by "summary or conclusion", do you mean to convey this is your final judgment, and you have "won" or something like that??? That is not how Wikipedia works. Like I asked before, does someone seriously believe that Brandywell is not the name of a corner of the SMC? You don't answer the question. The edit above accompanied a big edit in the article, which I am reverting again. Like I said before you don't get to win by removing a photograph, which you did again. There is too much changed in the edit, and the material changed is not by consensus. It seems like you have too many issues to discuss them one by one to consensus, or otherwise you are not willing to address just one at a time. --doncram 15:20, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

It is part of the BRD process to make available a summary or conclusion and this is the correct use of the process. The BRD process does allow for the discussion of multiple issues or 'cross-over' issues and does not place a 'time-frame' on the rate of change. Wikipedia is a 'collaborative censuses process' and does not allow the issues of Common knowledge, Confirmation bias or Circular reporting to disrupt the BRD process or the engagement of a “local consensus” WP:LOCALCONSENSUS or the inclusion of alternative facts. The changes in the two BOLD edits under the BRD process were incremental and corrected a number of “anomalies, mistakes and misunderstandings in the article.” Arguments about the length of BRD discussion, either too long or too short or the objection about questions should be seen in the context as pre-empting the BRD discussion, gaming the system WP:GAME, acting unilaterally and article ownership. WP:OWN

For the benefit of other editors, in the edit of 16:57, 30 December 2016 the term in the BRD process of “SMC” has not been defined and neither explained its relevance to the reverted article edit of 16:59, 30 December 2016.

The question in respect to the “SMC” is a non-sequitur and a rhetorical question as are many other questions in the edits for the BRD process by the editor User:doncram of 17:33, 11 September 2016, 16:57, 30 December 2016 and 15:20, 28 January 2017. The BRD discussion about the significance of renaming the relevant article can be found here [4].

The question about the “SMC” is answered by reference to WP:GEOROAD. For the benefit of other editors, the Auxiliary Road closing order for the 2016 Rally Isle of Man refers to “Brandywell Corner” and not “Brandywell” as a location as suggested by the reverted edit [5] of 16:59, 30 December 2016 or the non-sequitur question in respect to the “SMC.” The Webber publication used in the reverted edit of of 16:59, 30 December 2016 refers to on page 161 to the Highroads Course being modified to becoming the 'Short' Highroads Course later being further modified as the Four Inch Course or "Snaefell Mountain Course" for the Tourist Trophy races for automobiles rather than Isle of Man TT (Mountain) Course for motor-cycles. For the Tourist Trophy races for automobiles in the period 1905-1922 and for the Isle of Man TT (1911- ?)the term used in the reverted edit of 16:59, 30 December 2016 was actually known as the "Mountain Gate" rather than "Brandywell" as suggested.

Further research of the entomology of the Manx Gaelic place name “Chibbyr y Phunch” may suggest that “Brandywell” is a non-literal translation. The Broderick publication "Isle of Man Place Names" refers to a second “Chibbyr y Phunch” and the term used in the same context as suggested by authors Kneen, Stenning and Webber and is found in the ecclesiastic church parish district of Kirk Christ Lezayre. The second “Chibbyr y Phunch” is located some where at the base of Snaefell mountain near to the road sign in the photograph which is also is located in the parish district of Lezayre.

agljones(talk)20:52, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I noticed an edit by Agljones elsewhere today, at the list of fatalities on the racecourse, addressing link to here, and this brought me back to here. Brandywell or Brandywell Corner is, like Windy Corner, not some area of moorland. It is a named corner on the List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course. In past debate about Windy Corner, the editor made claims about what a source said which turned out to be false, and there remained no sources supporting it being an area of moorland. It's just a corner / curve in the road, named after a well that once used to be nearby. There is plenty of support for it being a corner / curve. --doncram 21:28, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

P.S. I welcome editor User:Andrew Davidson or others to participate in discussion here, and I especially invite them to consult any sources. --doncram 21:30, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

It is unclear and ambiguous if the edit of 21:30, 26 February 2017 by editor User:doncram is addressing the BRD process directly (?)

It is a policy of Wikipedia that editors should “Comment on the content, not on the contributor” WP:CONTENT.

The edit that editor User:doncram actually refers to is a change with an edit summary of “correction, incorrect link to Brandywell Stadium” from edit 20:53, 26 February 2017 [6] from the incorrect link to Brandywell stadium located in Derry, Northern Ireland to the “Brandywell Corner.” This was reverted by the editor User:doncram with edit 21:05, 26 February 2017 [7] changing back to the link to Brandywell Stadium, Derry in Northern Ireland for reason unknown (?)

The issue of the moorland was addressed in this BRD discussion of 10:12, 28 January 2017 with User:Andrew Davidson in the edit 12:39, 12 March 2015 as stated in the Jenkinson publication (1874) which actually reinforces the process of establishing independent notability for the article as shown by the revised edit of 17:22, 27 December 2016. WP:N The reverted article with edit 21:07, 26 February 2017 by editor User:doncram [8] gives an edit summary of restore content as;- “This is an article about a corner on the racecourse. There is no "Brandywell" place otherwise, as far as I know. Discuss at Talk.” The edit of 21:07, 26 February 2017 by editor User:doncram for the purposes of independent notability of the article WP:N has replaced the Broderick (1994) citation with the Kneen (1970) citation. Wikipedia states that; “Don't cite a source unless you've seen it for yourself.” WP: SAYWHEREYOUREADIT Both of these citations from Kneen and Broderick give the same description and actually describe the same place as the Jenkinson publication (1874) of Brandywell in the parish of Kirk Michael [9] which is not the location of;- “…..a corner on the racecourse” as described in the edit summary 21:07, 26 February 2017 WP:V, WP:NOTBLOG (?)

The Broderick citation actually gives a map reference which confirms the process and clarifies the revised article of 17:22, 27 December 2016 for the purposes of independent notability WP:N. This is also confirmed by other publications from authors in part or in full such as Jenkinson, Webber, Basnett, Gill, Stenning, Quilliam, Woodworth and Wright. Further details of the location can be found in the race programmes for the 1977 Isle of Man TT and the 1984 Manx International Rally.agljones(talk)20:59, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

The link to a google map location proves nothing at all. It links to a location on a road next to a named plantation. There is no "Brandywell" indicated in Google there, either, not that it would prove anything if there was such a label.

In advance, I am skeptical about it, but I would be happy to see/review the actual text, e.g. by a scanned PDF, of coverage asserted to exist in Broderick and in Kneen and in Jenkinson publications. Agljones, you have my email address from previous correspondence about Windy Corner, or if you don't, you can email me from my Talk page.

Otherwise, I expect they are like the sources in the article which mention Brandywell as a location/corner on the TT race course, as in two footnotes:

• One footnote in article: "Isle of Man Mountain Biking Guide – 8 complete self-guided routes page 3 Visit Isle of Man (2014) Isle of Man Department of Economic Development – "....Before you enter the open moorland, be sure to take a few minutes to soak up the magnificent view.... At the B10, turn left and follow this road through the cattle grid and on towards the TT Course. As you join the TT Course at Brandywell, you will see your starting point just half a mile to the north."
• Another footnote: "TT 100 The Official Authorised History of the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy Racing page 26 Mick Duckworth (2007) Lily Publications ISBN 1-899602-67-4 "....The wind can catch you out approaching Brandywell. It's as well to go in steady and take a classic racing line through...." The Mountain Course. A lap of the legendary circuit accompanied by the record holder John McGuinness."

In those sources Brandywell is mentioned only in passing and only as a location/corner on the TT course. Akin to the Windy Corner discussion, I believe Brandywell is not an individually Wikipedia-notable place at all, actually, and probably this article should be deleted/redirect to the List of named corners where an item can cover the corner. --doncram 17:59, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

• Brandy Well is detailed and discussed as a location in sources such as Jenkinson's Practical Guide to the Isle of Man. This was written in 1874 before motorbikes existed, let alone the TT race. Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia and so not exclusively concerned with sports. The general geography and history of the area will be of interest to a variety of readers including tourists, walkers, geologists, botanists, &c. Our presentation should be written accordingly and so the article should be edited and entitled along those lines. Andrew D. (talk) 18:15, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

To Andrew Davidson, do you have access to that Jenkinson's Guide? What does it actually say? 1874 dated item could be merely "on our carriage ride, we stopped for a picnic luncheon at Brandywell" or the like, and nothing more. Thank you for responding to my request that you discuss here, I appreciate that. --doncram 18:28, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

An editor changed the article to this version which includes the assertion that I contest (that Brandywell is an area of open moorland). I reverted the article and request that the version without contested content be kept in place while this discussion goes on. Frankly, though, neither version contains anything about a place named Brandywell! It's all about the road or the bikeway or the general area, with nothing about Brandywell per se. As far as I know, the only importance of Brandywell is as a notable location on the TT course, including that there were a couple fatalities there (and that's another issue: if there is an article, it should cover the fatalities, but I expect that an editor will oppose mention of fatalities in order to put forth a positive view). Did anything else ever happen there? I think not, but I would be happy to learn otherwise. --doncram 18:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

The Jenkinson publication of 1874 makes repeated references to "Brandywell" as shown in the revised edits of 17:22, 27 December 2016 [10] and 10:14, 28 January 2017 [11]. The publication by Gill (1929) also refers to Brandywell and clarifies that the name dates from at least 1703 and the Broderick publication confirms this and gives a map reference.

The Jenkinson publication (1874) does not describe or mention the description of "Brandywell, or Brandywell Corner" as in the 'lede' sentence / executive summary of the reverted edit under the BRD process of 18:33, 1 March 2017 [12] and only refer in general to the position of "Iron Gate" which may have been in a different position to the current road junction. The first reference to “…..a corner on the racecourse” may not have occurred until 1950/1951 which cannot be used to define independent notability WP:N as it is an Isle of Man TT source about the Isle of Man TT Races. WP:N The mountain bike citation cannot be used to define independent notability WP:N as it is completely non-specific and would be seen as original research WP:OP to use it in this context. WP:V

This is the case also with the Duckworth citation as is also non-specific, vague and from an Isle of Man TT publication and not independent as a source for use to define independent notability WP:N. With the Duckworth citation there is also an issue copyright and not suitable for inclusion. These points are understood by editors by the repeated references to "moorland." The Jenkinson publication makes two references to "moorland." Also in the revised version of 10:14, 28 January 2017 [13] and this revision uses two references from DEFRA (2014) and from the Liverpool University Press publication for the issue of "moorland." The same citation from DEFRA (2014) is used to describe "Brandywell area is open moorland" in the reverted edit of 18:33, 1 March 2017 in the same "general context" which confirms for the BRD process that there is nothing to "contest" in the discussion of 18:28, 1 March 2017 and the 'burden of proof' lies very much with the contributing editor either adding or removing text. WP:BURDEN, WP:V

The issue of independent notability for the revised article is from the Broderick citations. It is not possible to define the independent notability of the article from fatal race accidents as Wikipedia is not a memorial WP:MEMORIAL. A final recommendation for the BRD process is that all editors should stop reverting edits and let the normal editing process recommence. There is a consensus from editors that the Jenkinson publication and other also other publications such as by Gill, Webber and Quilliam....etc support the article as shown by the revised edits of of 17:22, 27 December 2016 and 10:14, 28 January 2017 and there is nothing to contest in the issue of the description of the moorland.agljones(talk)20:19, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, but I see no info value in that, nothing to support that it is an area of moorland, much less a notable one. The linked previous version of the article does not prove anything. --doncram 01:23, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

The 2015 comment by Andrew D seems concise and appropriately descriptive:
"The original feature is a well, as noted, and this existed before people started racing motorcycles there. Jenkinson's Practical Guide to the Isle of Man (1874) documents the locality in detail and says that the well gave its name to the nearby road junction, which it calls Brandy Well Junction".

Here is a link to a transcription of the Kneen entry - scroll down to (Chibbyr y phunch}

Taken together, it forms a very good case that this is nothing more than a road (trackway) junction where people gathered and enjoyed fortified drinks (punch) for which they paid. Any dissenters could prove their case by uploading images of the relevant pages to a publicly-accessible portal to enable further discussion. Please don't shout Copyright, as this is for research, not for permanent re-publication. Picturesocial would be familiar to at least one of the above dissenters .--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 03:12, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

The straight forward reply is that the citation in the Manx Notebook refers to a “Chibbyr-y-Phunch” or “Chibbyr Slieau-ny-Maggle” is in the parish of Kirk Michael. The Manx Notebook is quoting an abridged and edited version of the Kneen publication. The place known as the “Brandywell Corner” on the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road described by the 2015 Auxiliary Road Closing Order is located 3.5 miles to the east of the location described in the Manx Notebook citation in the parish of Kirk Lonan. For the process of independent notability WP:N or the process of independent verifiability WP:V for the article this Manx Notebook citation clearly fails the process of locating the place correctly as suggested in the reverted edits of 16:59, 30 December 2016‎ (...This is R in BRD process) [14], 15:21, 28 January 2017‎ and 21:07, 26 February 2017‎ by editor User:doncram as the Manx Notebook citation actually states the Parish of Kirk Michael at the top of the page.

There is suggestion of bias WP:BIAS that the “TT Course” takes precedence over articles on the general Isle of Man network of article. In the narrow framework of Wikipedia there are no references to support independent notability WP:N for an article for names on a course as they are actually independent “ historical notable place-names.” The names on the course which may be considered to be primarily course names have now become “ historical notable place-names” and Wikipedia does not permit Original research WP:OP. The only publications which may list all the corners of the course are not sufficiently independent of the subject for independent notability WP:N and one of these publications requires copyright permission from the author and publisher to be used as a source and currently has a major copyright issue.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not an internet blog WP:NOTBLOG. Articles can sustain Isle of Man folk tales for independent notability WP:N. For example, Isle of Man folk-tales in relation to water wells and “well lore” in regard to Isle of Man “fairy wells” or “ghost well” of which the “Brandy well” is an example of “well lore.” Also, the “ historical notable place-names” of Brandywell is an example Isle of Man historic agricultural land practices/agricultural folk lore/oral history/slang and non British-English European Community minority language. The issues of a general area is covered from references from DEFRA (2014) and other references such as Jenkinson, Gill, Stenning, Wright and Holdsworth. The issue of the moorland from references can be resolved by again by DEFRA (2014), Moore/Daff (2009) Liverpool University Press (2016) and the heath and moorland Act DaFF (2004).

The recommendation for the BRD process is that it is a BRD process and a BRD policy is to provide a summary based on "policies, guidelines, or common sense." A suggestion is that all editors should stop reverting edits and let the normal editing process recommence. agljones(talk)12:26, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

• Another incomprehensible, inane rant, more spurious Wikilawyering of Wikipedia itself, and more evidence of WP:CIR

• Desperate attempts to conflate disparate passing mentions and odd words from barely-relevant historic documents into conferring Notability are a breach of WP:SYNTHESIS

• Determined attempts to ascribe Notability from name-only locations, eg, Brandywell Cottage. There are many, many houses named Appledene, Gorse Lea, Braddan in mainland. A name is simply a name, not an historic notable widespread area

• Completely irrelevant image WP:NOTGALLERY

• The original upload by Agljones 2008 permalink September 2008 states:
  • Brandywell is situated between the 31st Milestone and 32nd Milestone road-side marker...
    • Brandywell Corner was part of the...
      • The Brandywell Corner is part of the...
        • The name originates from a nearby water-well that was used by local shepherds
          • The Brandywell Corner was subject to road widening...

• The link to the transcription (Manx Notebook) given above was added only for info; as I mentioned elsewhere, it cannot be used as a direct reference due to {{copyvio link}}

As a defiant conflicted editor Agljones has been previously requested not to edit, and should be keeping away from, any Isle of Man and TT race type articles. The multiple conflicts of interest do not involve birth/residency in the Isle of Man. This was met with the tacit admission:

• I am not the managing director of ACU Events Ltd
• CoI should not be used as a trump card in editing disputes

Agljones historically has single purpose accounts created in 2006 and 2008 used almost-exclusively to promote the Isle of Man and TT race type aspects into Wikipedia, including re-naming several-to-many articles to incorporate the words Isle of Man contrary to WP:MOS WP:COMMONNAME, without any consensus, note well @Andrew Davidson:; I first wrote COI in May 2014, and he now has been regularly and bad faith trolling and Wikilawyering for two years.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 01:47, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

about removed "Mountain Bike" and "Weather" sections

Removed Mountain bikes text:

The B10 Beinn-y-Phott road section near to the 'Brandywell Cottage' forms the first official manned check-point of Brandywell at 30 kilometres for the Isle of Man End-2-End Mountain Bike Challenge. The largest single day mountain bike race in Europe, the 75 kilometre route races from the Point of Ayre in the north of the Isle of Man to Port Erin in the south of the Island. [15], [16]

References

"Brandywell" is not mentioned at the links. It may possibly be true that a) the bike course goes through Brandywell Corner, but that does not deserve mention unless b) there is a lot more specifically about the role of Brandywell Corner in the bike race. I see no evidence of a) or of b). We don't include mention of everything that went through a given point for any other place topic in Wikipedia. --doncram 01:54, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Removed text (2nd paragraph):

The Brandywell Corner road junction forms part of two official mountain bike routes. The first A Grand Day Out (cross country loop) a mountain bike trail of 18.5 miles follows the B10 Brandywell Road and the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road and is classified as a Red difficult route. The second official route is the St Luke's & Windy Corner (cross country loop) a mountain bike trail of 17 miles and is also classified as a Red difficult route.

References

The coverage of Brandywell is apparently one word mention in the A Grand Day Out course description, and no mention at all in the "St Luke's & Windy Corner" course description. Even if there were mention, that does not justify padding out this article with this irrelevancy. --doncram 01:54, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Removed Weather text:

There is a weather station at Brandywell, which is 425 metres (1,394 ft) above sea level. In 2005, this recorded wind speed gusts of 97 knots (180 km/h; 112 mph).

References

I think the statement is a falsehood which was in mainspace. There is no mention of "Brandywell in the source. I honestly do not believe that there is a weather station there, which would be a starting point for discussion whether it is suitable to mention it at all. --doncram 01:54, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

disputed content

Besides about "Mountain bikes" and "Weather" sections which I simply removed, also disputed in the article includes the starting assertion that "Brandywell is an area of Mountain Lands of heath moorland" and so on. I believe that is false, just like it is false that "Windy Corner" is an area of moorland which was asserted in its article (since redirected to the list of named corners), as covered in discussion at its Talk page, where it turned out claims about what sources said were simply untrue. It is not controversial that Brandywell is a named corner on the Isle of Man TT race course, but that's not what the current lede says. Please do not remove the "disputed" tag. This is just a starter about what is disputed in the article.--doncram 02:03, 23 June 2017 (UTC)