Talk:Belgian Hare

Images

This article needs a few images, so if anyone has a picture to spare then this would be greatly appreciated. Ka34 (talk) 21:58, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Edit

I removed this section:

"It is recommended that the first litter must be born before the female is one year old due to the fusing of the pelvic bones, which would hinder her ability to give birth naturally, and it is recommended that they should have no more litters after the age of three years."

That information is totally incorrect. Rabbit pelvic bones do not fuse. The Belgian Hare is a large rabbit and can continue to breed longer after three years of age given they are in good condition and well cared for. As a doe gets older they will have smaller litters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.165.35.32 (talk) 20:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

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Wire floor cages

@TanRabbitry guidebook style content is inappropriate for Wikipedia per WP:NOTGUIDEBOOK. Furthermore wire cages should not be used for any rabbit: https://www.naeac.org.nz/assets/NAEAC-documents/Occasional-paper-10.pdf They have been proven to cause unnecessary harm in multiple studies and are proscribed by major veterinary organisations such as the British Small Animal Veterinary Association. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:31, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

What you citing is about laboratory animals and is specifically about space within an enclosure. Rabbits for pets or breeding stock are never housed in conditions similar to animal test subjects. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 00:50, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

"Wire cages are more durable than wooden cages and are less expensive in the long run. Wire cages reduce the incidence of disease because they are easier to clean and disinfect." Additionally, wooden cages absorb urine, are chewed through, upset ventilation (the most critical aspect of rabbit health) and harbor mites, filth, bacteria and viral diseases. TanRabbitry (talk) 00:55, 17 June 2024 (UTC) TanRabbitry (talk) 00:55, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

That isn't about wire flooring.

In one experiment on rabbit housing does housed with wire flooring had rates of plantar hyperkeratosis of between 65-68%. The authors noted even limited exposure to wire flooring can cause alopecia and keratosis

Why would wire flooring be unsuitable for one rabbit breed but not another? Rabbit breeds have no major phenotypic variation in the plantar to explain such a thing. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:10, 17 June 2024 (UTC) Traumnovelle (talk) 01:10, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

The thickening of the hind foot soles is common in all rabbits, whether they are housed in solid floors or wire. It is not a health concern. This may be comparable to calluses on hands developed due to continuous activity. They only become sore hocks (an issue) when they are open. At that time they should be treated with iodine. Many, if not most rabbit breeders nowadays add plastic mats to the cage to provide a place for the rabbit to rest on, however not all rabbits will use them. The reason that different breeds require different housing is precisely due to the fact that the structure of the foot pads are similar across breeds, while the body size is not. The very large and giant breeds (Flemish Giant, Giant Chinchilla, English Lop, Checkered Giant, et cetera) are quite heavy and the increased pressure on foot pads that are also on wire more frequently causes sore hocks than smaller breeds. Belgians are the exception, they aren't too heavy for wire, but have extremely long and fragile toes and feet. This, coupled with their flighty nature, make them generally unsuitable for wire cages, although this is not a universal belief. I hope this is helpful. I can provide additional quotations from rabbit books that explain this, if you wish. TanRabbitry (talk) 01:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

It progresses to pododermatitis and it was 9 times higher in the wire cage floor housed rabbits.

>more frequently causes sore hocks than smaller breeds

So you admit pododermatitis is still caused even if the breed is smaller?

Regardless we're going off topic.

This is guidebook style advice that doesn't belong on Wikipedia, we're meant to provide an encyclopaedic overview of the breed, not how to take care of it. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:55, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

"Although severe pododermatitis was absent, the prevalence of plantar hyperkeratosis (hair loss and callus formation) at the end of the 4th cycle was much greater on the wire floor"

Hair loss and callus formation on the hind feet is not a health concern. They very rarely becomes inflamed and turn into sore hocks. Additionally, a study of two dozen rabbits that references a controversial theory about does' reproductive cycles may not be completely trustworthy for this discussion.

This is not guidebook-like advice, but common breed-specific information. TanRabbitry (talk) 02:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

The current edit does not delve into the unrelated subject of rabbit housing, rather it contrasts the Belgian's specific needs with those of virtually all other breeds. TanRabbitry (talk) 02:19, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

The basic needs are the exact same, the only difference is volumes based on size and grooming differences based on fur type and length, which still falls under guidebook content. Traumnovelle (talk) 02:25, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be arguing in two different ways. You are against rabbits in wire cages, but also against mentioning relevant information on this breed. Additionally, rabbits do not groom the bottom of their hind feet and the basic needs are dependent on breed. Rabbits can vary between around 2 to around 20 pounds and consequently require quite different care on either end of that spectrum. TanRabbitry (talk) 03:09, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

And it's still guidebook content. We don't explain how to take care of rabbits nor any animal on Wikipedia. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:20, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

You're right a study in a journal published by Cambridge University is unreliable, clearly we should rely on what the self-published breeder website says. Traumnovelle (talk) 02:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for agreeing.

In all seriousness, a study that is assuming an unproven model of rabbits' reproductive cycles and has an extremely small sample size and is all one one breed (which happens not to be this breed) and in its own summary acknowledges it needs further study, is in fact less relevant than the expert opinion of a century old breed association. Thank you,

TanRabbitry (talk) 03:00, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

It's one example, other studies have been performed. The BSAVA recommend against wire cage flooring for example. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:21, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I even contacted an expert just because my rabbit experience is limited and they've affirmed what I've written. Wire floor caging is unsuitable.

To the matter of whether this should be included: the breed club is a self-published source making a claim that goes beyond what they're capable of per acceptable use of self-published sources, they're not an expert in the field of rabbit care. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:No Original Research and WP:Hearsay.

I would also note that quite a few officers in American rabbit clubs are veterinarians. For example, the last president of the American Rabbit Breeders Association is a veterinarian and also a Ph.D. Officers in other clubs also include several college professors. Anyone may have an opinion, but the vast majority of rabbit experts (not animal, small animal, or any other type of expert) affirm that wire cages are suitable. Would you like me to add some quotations from rabbit related books and publications? It will take a while to type them out, but I will if you wish. Thank you,

TanRabbitry (talk) 23:14, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Original research applies to adding content, not removing it. The removal is based on it being not adequately sourced (self-published) + what Wikipedia is not. The reason I think it's more impertinent is that it is misleading.

I'm quite certain based on my own understanding + affirmation from the only rabbit specialised in my city that it isn't suitable and nothing short of an actual study will make me re-consider, so don't bother. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:04, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Why do you think that the development of calluses on the feet is detrimental to health? Would you really not be convinced by the expert opinion of authors of rabbit books? I would note that the past president of the ARBA I mentioned is the author of a book on rabbit care. TanRabbitry (talk) 01:03, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

No, because it's not all that hard to get a book published about animal breeds. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:39, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

It's a bit more than a book on animal breeds. It's an extensive overview of rabbit care by a professional who has raised rabbits for more than 40 years. He is a licensed veterinarian, has a Ph.D. and is board certified in microbiology.

TanRabbitry (talk) 06:48, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

What's the publisher? Traumnovelle (talk) 06:50, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Not a very big one: Leathers Publishing up in Kansas. TanRabbitry (talk) 08:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Then no. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:18, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

It's still one of the larger publishers in the Midwest. I just meant that it isn't Simon and Schuster. Storey also has some excellent books by other authors, as well as the university publications. TanRabbitry (talk) 08:52, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

It's not size; it's not a veterinary/medical/academic publisher. Traumnovelle (talk) 09:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

@TanRabbitry There are two editors who oppose this content and only yourself who supports it. If you want to see it included you can seek WP:DRN but per WP:ONUS the content should not be restored, especially when there are two editors opposed and only one editor for inclusion. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:03, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you mind if I ask another editor their opinion on this issue? TanRabbitry (talk) 02:33, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Traumnovelle

I know you said you wouldn''t accept the recommendations of a veterinarian with decades of rabbit experience, due to their publisher. Prhaps you would consider a publication by a University? Or by extension services? TanRabbitry (talk) 02:59, 21 September 2024 (UTC) TanRabbitry (talk) 02:59, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Here's another from the Mississippi State University Extension Service: "We recommend that you use all-wire cages. Hutches (or cages) with wooden parts are not sanitary or as convenient to manage." It's a PDF entitled Commercial Rabbit Production.

Now aren't these enough evidence? Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 03:13, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Those are sources on cuniculture they probably also recommend farrowing crates. We're not teaching people how to raise rabbits for food nor how to keep them. Wire care flooring is harmful to any rabbit. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:00, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

We're not teaching people anything - we're summarising what other sources say. Reliable sources on cuniculture are just as relevant as reliable sources on pet rabbits, because they both present information about the topic. Prioritising one type of source over the other would be inappropriate.

With that said, I don't see any reason why this specific argument is actually relevant to this article at all. There's no reason to include information about how other rabbit breeds are kept on the page about this rabbit breed. It's just not relevant information. Whether other breeds are recommended for wire or solid floors doesn't need to be mentioned here. Just like we don't need to mention all the colours that other breeds come in, and whether those are the same or different to the colours of belgian hares.

Leaving out the "unlike other breeds" part doesn't suggest or imply anything about how other breeds are kept. It doesn't give the impression that all rabbits are (or aren't) kept on wire, it simply omits information that's irrelevant. Averixus (talk) 13:13, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Averixus I appreciate your willingness to consider reliable sources neutrally.

The reason I think it is important to include the additional information, is that Belgian Hares really are an exception. Out of the 52 recognized American Rabbit Breeders Association breeds, only a handful (Belgian Hares, Checkered Giants and Flemish Giants are the ones that come to mind) should ever be kept on solid floors. It is intended to draw distinction.

I wonder if editor @Traumnovelle recognizes that for many breeds it is not just a poor choice for the stock to be housed so, but actually bad for them. For example, none of the Angora breeds can ever be kept on shavings. It ruins the wool for exhibition and for spinning, mats the wool and can actually be dangerous to the animal's health. I commend their concern about rabbits being properly cared for, but adding improper information and ignoring sound references is not the way to go.

TanRabbitry (talk) 20:41, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

References