Talk:Australian English vocabulary/Archive 1

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Etymology

Pom (Englishperson)

I have never heard the theory that "pom" comes from "pompous" before. If this is merely conjecture on the part of the author of that edit, maybe it should be removed? MyallR 12:27, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I've not heard of it either. In fact, I was the one who changed the original attribution ("Prisoner of Mother England") to "Origin Uncertain", which at present seems to be all that can be said about it. The P.O.M.E. explanation is definitely an urban myth, which appears to have originated in the 1960s, at which time this kind of cod acronym etymologies were popular (cf. F.U.C.K. and others). It seems as if the origins of the term have been lost. Personally, I don't mind being called a Pom, but 'pompous' is another matter ;-) Graham 06:08, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Indeed!  : zig 02:35, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I started a new page (fake etymology) for stories of this kind. Graham 23:48, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

According to the Macquarie Dictionary, "pom" is a contraction of "pomegranate" which was used as rhyming slang for "immigrant" ("imme-granate"). Seeing as this is Australia's official dictionary, they probably have a better idea than anyone else. I would either concur with them, or mark the origin as obscure. The derivation from the French "pomme de terre" is certainly wrong in any case. dmmaus 06:28, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Didjeridoo

I've never heard the etymology listed on this article:

actually derived from the Irish term "Dudaire Dubh", which literally means "black trumpeter".

That looks like a folk etymology to me, or perhaps what some users have begun called a fake etymology. I've always heard, including from an aborigine and from a didj teacher, that the name is onomatopeoic from one of the sounds commonly produced by the instrument.

I'd like to see some citations to support the Irish etymology please or it should be removed. — Hippietrail 14:02, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This etymology was copied over from the didgeridoo article where there is a link to a page about this theory. It is quite creative, but probably false for a couple of reasons:

• The English pronunciation would require a spelling like duidirí dubha, but in fact the word has a long ú in it's standard (dúdaire) and variant (dúidire) spellings. The long -í ending also implies plural, which doesn't make a lot of sense.
• It's not impossible, but an English speaker would be unlikely to change doodaradoo (dúdaire dubh) or doojeradoo (dúidire dubh) into didgeridoo.

In any case, it's certainly not a proven etymology, so I'll amend the articles. — Moilleadóir 16:35, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Not necessarily Irish, same in Scottish Gaelic. A lot of "aboriginal" words like kangaroo appear to have obscure origins. It's notable around North East Scotland though, they call a trumpet a tooteroo, which is similar.

'Bloke' from Polari?

Polari is described as "a form of cant slang used in the gay subculture in Britain in the 1950s and 1960s". Use of 'bloke' long predates that - for instance, C.J. Dennis' "The Songs of a Sentimental Bloke" was published in 1915. See also Talk:Polari on this point. --Calair 12:49, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I thought that Polari was likely to have come from 19th century theatre-speak. Just because it was popular in the 50s and 60s doesn't mean the terms originated then. My SOED says it's from Shelta and Talk:Polari mentions the OED having a first citation in 1851. — Moilleadóir 16:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Australian Words Still In Use

I don't know which part of Australia "bloke", "bloody" and "poofter" are falling into disuse, because I hear them used by lots of people all the time (In both Queensland and Victoria). I suggest the be moved from the "disused" list to the "common" list. I've also never heard the term "Anglo-Celtic" in my entire life! ShaneKing 10:22, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Anglo Celtic

I have read, heard and used "Anglo-Celtic" in Australia, but as an adjective not a noun, describing/grouping people in Australia of U.K. and/or Irish descent, their POV, suburbs, food, etc. Yes, it's an inaccurate term in many senses. While not unique to Australia, it seems to be used more commonly here.

-- zig 13:15, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Interesting, I've only heard Anglo, never the Anglo-Celtic bit. I still think its presence in the list gives an illusion of being in wide use, when it's not really. ShaneKing 13:20, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've never heard Anglo-Celtic and have lived in Oz all my life. Also, I've rarely heard "Anglo". And things like "wog" are not as derogatory now - look at Nick Giannopolous and the like, who have helping turn "wog!" into a proud statement about one's orgins or a term of endearment to a mate. And there are accent differences between states, as well as between "classes". I, a Melburnian, can instantly pick if someone on telly is from New South Wales when they are acting as a Queenslander, for instance, and the accent of Adelaide is VERY distinct. The table showing pronunciations of different words accross the states is completely innaccurate, according to my personal experiences.

I've also been baffled by the term "Anglo-Celtic" in this list. I can't recall hearing it and I'm 36, a 6th generation Aussie who's lived in 4 states. I've definitely heard "Anglo" though it's certainly not very common.

As for accents in Australia, it's widely known by linguists that many Aussies believe there are regional accents in Aus but it's been studied many times over the years and it just doesn't hold up. The chart in this article may not be completely up-to-date but it does give a good view of just how slight the regional variations are in Australia. Adelaide or South Australia is acknowledged as having more tendency to a British sound but it's only a tendency and different speakers have different numbers of the traits to differing degrees. Usually when an Aussie picks an "accent" it's actually use of regionalisms which give the hints - this doesn't make an accent in the linguistic sense, and this is a linguistic article. So we should state here that many Australians believe in regional accents but that linguists do not. Hippietrail 08:15, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It is probably out of place on the list, since most of those words are colloquialisms. "Anglo-Celtic" is used more by academics and the government. But in those fields it is used very widely indeed (see [1]), since the informal alternatives are all regarded as discriminatory in one way or the other. Securiger 17:03, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Anglo-Celtic seems to be used a lot in the media (particularly the ABC). It's strange to hear it described as a non-discriminatory alternative since I find it so very offensive. Given the history of the Irish in Australia, it seems incredible that anyone could ever use this term without blushing. Moilleadóir 05:41, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Anglo-Celtic is fairly common in discussing society and religion. I see how it could be considered offensive, but it's chiefly a way of broadly distinguishing different groups of European origin. Despite all the tricky history, Australians of Irish origin had been reasonably integrated (particularly in terms of language) by WWII as opposed to the large waves of Italian, Greek etc immigration in the post war years. It's particularly useful in discussing Catholicism in Australia, and the changes forced by incorporating these southern and eastern European immigrants into the Australian Church(where the Irish/British were very much the establishment). Munster 11:05, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Use of G'day

I think the comment about Australians being embarrised by the use of 'Gday' is becoming out of date. I frequently use it in conversations with friends and in particular people I am meeting for the first time. Most people I know either use it or have no problem with other people using it. And I am only 17! My work also encourages people to use it to meet a customer.

I really do think that the whole use of 'Gday' is coming back in, and that a revision of this sentance may be necessary.

- I agree with this. I'm 29, and use g'day every day of my life, even if I speak to foreigners. I've never been embarassed or ashamed by it. Too bad for them they're not Australian, I say. David.

Smoko

Another word that is listed as obsolete slang is smoko. News to me: smoko meaning a work break is standard usage where I work. Unless anyone objects I'll move it. --GPoss 10:27, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. I use or hear used "smoko" several times a week here in Sydney. — Hippietrail 12:06, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Smoko, huh? Absolutely dinkum to me. Heard and used it all my life. Fikri 09:30, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Smoko" is still common in Perth as well. There was a recent radio advert for the "Kennard's Smoko Van".

Words to Add to Australian vocabulary

I am not entirelly sure if some of these words are in use in the USA of other english speaking countries but i think that the following should be added to the article:

Oi: usually used to gain someones attention, for example "Oi you you tosser!"

Thong: called flip-flops by Americans but is starting to decline by American influence in the younger generations (why is it not called G-string in USA anyway?)

bougan (sp?): Usually of Anglo appearance, similar to American white trailer trash, stereotype of blue flannel shirts, big beer drinker, dole bludger, and lower class.

• It is bogan. There is a separate article on that and the related westie. L-Bit 10:25, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Although the accent in Australia tends to be consistent throughout the country there are differences, for example when you go out bush or in central or regional Queensland it tends to be more nasal, or perhaps thats due to education levels in the areas? In addition there is Aboriginal accents which are different from "whites" particually in Missions or reserves. -June 4 2004 K. Levett

• Both "oi" and "tosser" are common English slang - specifically London slang I think. "Oi" does get some use in Australia (Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi comes to mind), but tosser is only known from British TV shows.
• Thongs in Australia are cheap plastic or rubber summer footwear, which I think are called flip-flops in the US. The sense of thong underwear is not used, although the Lewinski scandal has made it better known.
• Bogan is common urban youth slang meaning a young man of limited intelligence or education. An American equivalent would be hick or redneck, although it doesn't have the connotation of violence or bigotry that redneck has. It may come from the town of Bogan Gate in western NSW, but it may have some other source.

• Differences in Australian accents are mostly class based rather than regional. As a rule country people have lower incomes and less education, and tend to speak more slowly and have broader Australian accents. Since Queensland and Tasmania are the least urbanised states, the "bush" accent is sometimes assumed to have a regional basis. Upper-class people, particularly South Australians, cultivate a Home Counties English accent, although this is declining under the pressure of Americanisation.
• Aboriginal people certainly have a distinctive vocabulary, which when mixed with a broad rural Australian produces what might be called an Aboriginal accent.
• There is also a distinct "wog" accent, heard among second-generation urban youth of ethnic background.

Adam 06:38, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Oi is definitely British English, but I've heard it used here in Aus too. Tosser seems to be gaining ground, as in the recent ad campaign against littering - which as a Pom I find quite amusing by the way ;-). Never heard Bougan or Bogan, but I understand "ocker" to be the same thing, no?Graham 06:47, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

There is a difference between a bogan and an ocker. An ocker is a loud and uncouth male of any age, while a bogan is more a gormless youth. Adam 07:12, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• • There is a Bogan page. Although I am not an Ozzie, I believe Ocker and Ozzie are interchangeable. L-Bit 10:25, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

light globe – light bulb

Don't know about anyone else but as an Australian I find this definition vaguely insulting : "light globe – although "light bulb" is sometimes also used, most Australians don't realise that "globe" is no longer commonly used in this sense outside Australia." Perhaps the rest of the world doesn't realise that it is used commonly this way in Australia?

Note to above. This has been improved, by why even mention that "globe" is not commonly used outside Australia? Surely this is common to all words listed in an "Australian language" page - ie not used outside Australia?

Food And Culinary Terms

Capsicums/Peppers

One possible theory on why Australians call "peppers" capsicums may be to avoid confusion with the other form of pepper, the ground or unground berries of the genus Piper. What term is generally used by American or British English speakers to refer to table pepper? Is just "pepper" used, or "cayenne pepper", or what? thefamouseccles 10:10 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

That's black pepper, or white pepper as opposed to a green pepper, or a red pepper. Both the colour and the need for an article (peppers are countable items, pepper isn't) remove ambiguity. When I'm asked whether I want pepper on my salad, I know that the waiter doesn't mean peppers. -- Derek Ross 06:28, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

You mean you never have salad with capsicum or jalepenos?--ZayZayEM 10:49, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Entrée

I have removed ref to use of entree when used to describe a course before the main one,

In American English, an entrée is a main course; in Australian English, it is a smaller course that precedes the main course. It is more substantial than appetisers, better thought of as a half-sized version of a main course. Restaurant menus will often offer the same dish in different-sized servings as both entrée and main course.

as in fact use of entree to describe the main course is a characteristic of American English, and in Britain the Aust usage is the norm...and in France (it is a French word after all) they also use it to mean the course before the main meat dish.

See also List of words having different meanings in British and American English

--GPoss 10:12, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps I've misunderstood the British usage. Currently, Entrée redirects to Hors d'oeuvre, a discussion of appetisers, and I took this to be an accurate indication of British usage. As discussed above, in Australian English 'entree' does not mean the same thing as 'appetisers' or 'hors d'ouevres'; I've been to several places that offer both 'entrees' and 'appetisers', in separate parts of the menu.

If 'entree' in British English just means 'appetiser', then the Australian usage is different and ought to be mentioned here. If they're not, then the redirect from Entrée to Hors d'oeuvre is inappropriate, and the above deletia might be transplanted to Entrée. Somebody more familiar with British English than myself want to make a call on which of the two it is?

--Calair 23:39, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Indeed I am not British, but my recollection of normal usage there is the same as in Oz. I have just done a very quick online check of London restaurant reviews to check my memory and usage of entree seems to match Oz based on the dishes mentioned as entrees. However need a native to confirm.

--GPoss 09:47, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)

Lunch Meats

I have spent time, and eaten processed meats, in both Victoria and New South Wales, and my experience is that Devon and Strasburg/Strasbourg are different, and found in both states. "Stras" is a reddish-pink, spicy meat that also usually contains white, hard pieces of what I assume are cartilage or "grissle" and at least sometimes has a rind. Devon is usually less spicy than Strasbourg, while Devon is of a similar light-pink colour to Anglo-saxon skin, is completely processed and smooth, and has no rind. Both usually come in a round sausage of similar diameter, although I have also seen Strasbourg in square slices that I assume come from a square block, and there's no reason Devon couldn't be the same.

I'd like to change the section that deals with this, but I don't know what these two meats are called in the other states. Someone care to fill this in? Ben Hourigan 14:19 3 March 2005 (Eastern Standard Time)

I've never thought of Stras as being spicy, and I would consider stras to be about the same color as my (white) skin. A spicy reddish-pink meat that often has a rind is how I'd describe, among other things, salami. I come from Melbourne.

stras is spicy, dark red with white chunks. its not pink at all.

I grew up in SA (now live vic) and therefore not well versed re stras and devon: but can confirm that fritz in SA is the light-pink stuff that you get in a 'fritz and sauce sandwich'. I was told when growing up that this was called stras/devon in the Eastern states. Fritz was fat (say 8 cm diameter) with a tough skin of an unnatural colour. The red spicy stuff with white bits (fat) was (in SA) either salami or metwurtz (sp?). Metwurtz was likely to be less cooked and softer: salami was hard. Really need a European migrant to sort out the real names for these more recent foods. The fritz, strass etc line all date to before the rise in 'continental' foods in the 1970's.

Tomato Sauce and Ketchup

Tomato sauce may be used interchangeably with ketchup by some, but there is a difference between the two. On supermarket shelves in Australia, one may find "Ketchup" as well as "Tomato Sauce", often sold by the same brand (eg. Heinz). Ketchup tends to be thicker and with more tomato flavour (possibly containing more tomato paste), and is generally more expensive than tomato sauce.

Are you sure that the use of ketchup is not some marketing ploy? The word certainly seems very unAustralian to me. You might find it on the labels of certain tomato sauce bottles but is any Aussie going to use that word to describe the sauce? Does a slight differenc in texture, flavour and price warrant a whole new name? Sure it does but only if you're trying to sell the sauce. Heinz isn't even an Australian company. Jimp 13Apr05

It's an interesting comment. I don't remember ever seeing anything labelled as ketchup in the local supermarket, but I'll have a closer look next time I'm there. They do try these things -- for a couple of years Coles, here in WA at least, has insisted on using the word "cantaloupes" here in WA for the things that 90% of the population (in WA) call "rock melons" Grant65 (Talk) 11:00, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

I have seen tomato sauce labelled as ketchup once or twice in Sydney but that was a while back. Perhaps it's fallen out of fashion (one can only hope). However you've got to note some points about this alledged ketchup verses tomato sauce distinction.

1. The distinction has no etymological basis.
2. It's not a distinction made in other parts of the English speaking world.
3. It's not a distinction normally made by Australians in speach or writing.

It seems only to be a distinction made by the tomato sauce companies. Hence the only difference between the two is an invention of Heinz: i.e. there is no true diffence between the two. Tomato sauce is the Australian term. Ketchup is a foreign term. No mention need be made of this "distinction" in the article, in my opinion. - Jimp 15Apr05

Sultanas the intermediate!

My recollection is that sultanas have always been larger than the other two dried grape products, therefore I have changed order of these three.

Macquarie Dictionary

I'm confused as to why the link to the Macquarie Dictionary isn't seen as a link to a commercial product. It is sold after all.

We're allowed to link to information about commercial products, including to the official websites of people selling commercial products. We even have quite a few articles about commercial products, including the Macquarie Dictionary. -- Tim Starling 06:07, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

There is no ban on links to commercial products. Rather, links to commercial products have to satisfy a two-part test: (1) The linked product has to be relevant to the article; and (2) The linked product's site has to contain information relevant to the article.

The Aussie English CD doesn't meet part (2) of this test because the site in question doesn't have any information other than a sales pitch. While the Macquarie Dictionary site doesn't provide free access to the entire dictionary, it does provide free content from the dictionary, such as the full text of all the essays included in the dictionary as well as a dictionary of slang, both of which are directly relevant to the article.

Since the Macquarie Dictionary site has content that doesn't consist entirely of a sales pitch for the dictionary, a link here is relevant (not to mention the fact that Macquarie Dictionary is famous enough to have its own article. If The Aussie English CD had significant information about Australian English, then I don't think there would be a problem with having a link here. But since it is entirely a sales pitch, it isn't really relevant. Nohat 06:17, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hi. The Aussie English CD site (www.AussieEnglishCD.com) now has a lot of content, if you click under Multimedia Samples you can see it, including a full dictionary of Australian slang and the ability to actually listen to Australian English being used. It is a sales pitch, but there is a lot of "free" content there that would be of great use to someone with an interest in Aussie English. Please have a look at the site and see if it now passes the test.

Long List of Slang

Cadbury Commy

I've never heard anyone refer to a Commodore as "Commy", or to a two pot screamer as a "Cadbury". Is it possible these are purely recent/local slang? If there are no objections I'll remove them. Grant65 (Talk) 07:44, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

Not sure about the "Commy", but "Cadbury" is firmly established in Brisbane and its surrounds at least. thefamouseccles 10:10, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've never heard "Commy" for "Commodore". The most common nicknames would be "Dunny door" and "Comode door". I also can't recall ever hearing "Cadbury" in the 9 years I lived in Brisbane, but maybe I heard it and never picked up on what it referred to.

Cadbury is reasonably common usage in many parts of Australia; I'm familiar with it in Melbourne, and have heard it used by friends from Adelaide, Sydney and Brisbane. I've also heard more than one story of Australian backpackers recognising others in foreign pubs by their use of the word, so I'd say (in some social circles or sub-cultures at least) it's pretty wide-spread. -- Guybrush 03:27, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Commie has now been removed. Apart from anything else the excised entry was inaccurate in the assertion about communists, since the home-grown slang was "commo" or even "com".Grant65 (Talk) 11:40, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Actually Cadbury is not a two pot screamer but someone who gets drunk on a glass and a half of alcohol. It is after the slogan of Cadbury chocolate - a glass and a half of milk in each chocolate (slab?) - Frances

Wowser

I removed 'teetotaller' from the explanation of 'wowser' because it's misleading. IME, 'wowser' invariably means someone who inflicts puritanical beliefs *on others*. 'Teetotaller' simply means somebody who doesn't drink alcohol; if that's a personal decision which they don't force on anybody else (and there are plenty of teetotallers like that), they're not a wowser.

Youse

I've changed the comment regarding the usage of 'youse' (plural second person) to be common in some social circles, instead of being being common in the lower class. The use of 'youse' appears to be highly favoured in certain localities and cultures, and is not strictly related to social status.

Jerry-built

I was under the impression 'jerry-built' was at least as common in British English as it is in Strine, and with the same meaning - should it really be included as specifically Australian vocabulary? --Calair 23:24, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think (and might be able to prove, given time)that "jerry-built" is a phrase common to the British, the Americans and the Australians. There is a phrase, "jury-rig", that is an old sailing term derived from Latin and perhaps Old French which means - literally - to arrange mechanical help for something broken or unplanned. As in a jury-rigged mast or such. Since the term is older than near-universal literacy for common sailors, it's not hard to see the connection between the two phrases. This confusion may have been augmented by two wars between English-speakers and the Germans. A common euphemism for a German in both world wars was "Jerry". Toward the latter part of each of the wars, the German population was forced by the failure of their industrial and supply systems to do a great deal of improvising in order to provide themselves with housing, transportation and clothing. The term was in wide use in the subsequent popular literature written or dictated by veterans who pursued the German Army into Germany. captainjacklogan@netzero.net--24.91.129.109 09:22, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Here's an interesting side-note - doesn't quite belong here, but I'm not overly familiar with the original article and unsure what boundaries have been established for it. Calair, in your comment above you've referred to Australian English by its well-known (in Australia) colloquial tag "Strine". I suddenly thought "hey, wait a sec" and scanned the original article - nobody's mentioned or explained "strine". Is this a deliberate omission?

What *is* its etymology anyway? I mean, obviously, its immediate source is obvious to Australian speakers (non-Australians: it's an approximation of the word "Australian" as spoken in an Australian accent), but was it coined by "Afferbeck Lauder" in writing "Let Stalk Strine"? And who was "Afferbeck Lauder" a pseudonym for, anyway? Strewth! Stone the flamin' crows, Ailsa! So many questions!--CaseyBennetto 14:55, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've since seen a reference to it on the Australian English page, but it's still fairly remote - and interestingly it's defined about twenty paragraphs after its first usage on that page. We need a definition of it that both pages can link to, I think. Anyone?--CaseyBennetto 14:55, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tall poppy syndrome

This expression is used just about anywhere that a famous or successful figure attracts public animosity, not just "in context of academia". Googling on '+"rene rivkin" +"tall poppy syndrome"' will find plenty of examples; if you need more, replace Rene with "alan bond" or "steve irwin".

Whether any of these fine gentlemen is *actually* a victim of TPS (as opposed to their own flaws) is another matter, but the term certainly enjoys widespread use. --Calair 23:24, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Footpath

This term is in the article defined as a paved walkway running parallel to a street or road, but most footpaths as made of concrete. - Jimp 10Feb05

Pronunciation for Australian Vocabulary

Pronunciation guides - A request.

It's strikes me that some of the slang can easily be mis-pronounced by non-Australians. For example, "woop-woop" could be pronounced in a few different ways (eg, rhyming with "hoop-hoop") which are considered incorrect.

Unfortunately, I'm not a linguist, so I'm pretty awful when it comes to trying to write pronunication guides, or anything related to phonetics. However I think the page would certainly benefit if someone linguistically-talented were able to do so.

--pjf 07:23, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Are They Necessary?

I don't think the pronunciation of Australia words is really necessary. Most people reading these words would have a very good idea at how to pronounce them correctly. Wikipedia is NOT a dictionary, so if pronunciation is really needed for these words use Wiktionary instead. I will remove these pronunciations. -- AxSkov 09:59, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree. These words follow usual English spelling. Their spelling combined with the section on Phonology on the Australian English page should be enough guide as to pronunciation. Where ambiguities remain, sure, add a word or two on pronunciation (as has been done for woop-woop). - Jimp 9Feb05