Talk:Auria

Add discussion
Active discussions

Ibn HazmEdit

The genealogy of the Banu Qasi by Ibn Hazm includes a daughter of Musa ibn Musa named Awriyyah, (i.e. Auria), who was married to Garcia. As tempting as it may be to identify this woman with the other woman named Auria, there is no solid basis for doing so and several reasons not to. 1) It is highly unlikely that there was only one woman named Auria in all of history, such that every single reference to the name must describe the same person. 2) The two women named Auria, the one named by the Codice de Roda, the other by Ibn Hazm, were married to men with different names, the former to Fortun son of Garcia, the latter to a Garcia (no parentage given). No writer would intentionally write Garcia for someone who was named Fortun, just because their father happened to be named Garcia. Occasionally the chronicles and other writings contain errors, such that an original record describing ibn Garcia, the son of Garcia, would mistakenly come to be written (or copied) simply as Garcia, but there is no reason to think this was the case here. 3) There is reason to think it is not an error. Ibn HayyanThe Chronicle of Alfonso III described among those killed at ClavijoMonte Laturce a prince Garcia, son-in-law of Musa ibn Musa. That means we have two completely independent sources both naming a son-in-law of Musa as Garcia, not ibn Garcia, let alone Fortun. Not only are they in agreement, but the fact that this Garcia died at ClavijoMonte Laturce, almost a half-century before Fortun abdicated, means that different men are clearly intended. We don't get to 'correct' sources to make them say what we want them to say, and Ibn Hazm names the daughter of Musa as wife of Garcia, not of Fortun. Agricolae (talk) 01:01, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Just to be clear here, these are the accounts of the two families: 1) among the children of Musa ibn Musa shown in Ibn Hazm's pedigree of the Banu Qasi is an Auria who married Garcia, King of the Basques and had a son Musa ibn Garcia. 2) In the Codice de Roda we are told that Fortun Garces married Oria, daughter of {lacuna} and had Inigo, Aznar, Lope, Velasco, and Onneca. There is no reason to conclude there was any connection between these two families, given how different they are and how little we know about the people involved, how little we know about female naming practice in the Basque country at her time (there are only two surviving documents that name a single Basque woman from before Fortun's time, and they give us three names, total), and how little we know about the politics (where there were clearly multiple contemporary 'kings'). In this context, just by describing the other occurance of the same name is making an implicit genealogical claim that there is a significance to it, as opposed to Auria simply being a popular name in Basque culture, and as Wikipedia editors, we don't get to drop such hints on our own. Agricolae (talk) 15:57, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
As the attempt continues to insert material about someone else, let's look at the sources. The claim to relevance of the disputed text is that the original source gave the husband of that Awriyah the wrong name, and that even though Ibn Hazm says she married Garcia, she is actually the wife of Fortun who had the same name. Wikipedia is not about personal assertions of editors who 'correct' primary sources to say what they want them to say, it is based on the interpretations of published authors. So, what do the published authors say: Alberto Canada Juste in his "Los Banu Qasi (714-924)" (1980) and Jesus Lorenzo Jimenez, La Dawla de los Banu Qasi (2010), do not mention this Awriyah at all. Claudio Sanchez Albornoz in "La Auténtica Batalla de Clavijo" (1948), Evariste Levi-Provencal in Histoire de l'Espagne musulmane (1950) and Jose Lacarra in Historia politica del Reino de Navarra (1972) all agree that the husband of Awriyah named by Ibn Hazm was the same Garcia who was killed fighting for his father-in-law (in 959), a full 45 years before Fortun abdicated. The personal conclusions of a single Wikipedia editor carry no weight in the fact of these three scholarly sources that directly address the question, which are all in agreement that Ibn Hazm was not referring to Fortun. Agricolae (talk) 21:00, 17 January 2020 (UTC)