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Talk:Asmahan/Archive 2

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Latest comment: 14 years ago by Arab Cowboy in topic Sockpuppetry Allegations

RfC

Latest comment: 14 years ago51 comments7 people in discussion

There's a longstanding discussion of Asmahan's nationality. Several options have been discussed: one is to label her "Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin" (this edit); another is to not mention her nationality in the lede at all, and merely state her origins and naturalizing in the paragraphs below (this edit). Which should be used, or is there another option? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

This is my first contribution to Wikipedia, but I have been following the debate for some time. My position is that I support the current version of 15:48, 2 July 2009. And I believe her Egyptian nationality needs to be in the lead. Nefer Tweety (talk) 18:04, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

There is a thread related to this comment below. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:30, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Asmahan and Farid Al-Atrash were Egyptian citizens as all the sources show. We, in Egypt, have always considered them to be Egyptians and they sang all their songs in Egyptian. I think that this is what the articles of Asmahan and Farid Al-Atrash should make very clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.201.252.219 (talk) 05:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I understand that mentioning the name of a public figure, their date of birth (and death), nationality (and origin) and profession are the first and most important pieces of information one would search for. How do you want to ignore mentioning Asmahan's nationality in the lead? That is basic information that has to be to there. When I supported this point of view I used logic and common sense, nothing more! This article http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/Lebanon/192567 identifies Asmahan as Egyptian. More importantly, Sherifa Zuhur, the author of the book that has been widely used all over the page, Asmahan's Secrets, makes a comment at the bottom of the article. She objects to many things on it, but NOT to Asmahan's identification as Egyptian. --Nefer Tweety (talk) 14:26, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm reading parts of the book, but I don't see that she denies that Asmahan was originally a Syrian. It doesn't matter if people in Egypt considered her Egyptian, that doesn't take the Syrian aspect away. Concerning her nationality, the NPOV and accurate thing to state in the lead is "Asmahan... was an Egyptian singer with Syrian origins." --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Al Ameer: I agree with you. Asmahan was Egyptian of Syrian (father) and Lebanese (mother) origin. This is the way it should be stated in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arab Cowboy (talk • contribs) 09:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Mediation

First of all to lead this RFC successfully we have to remember that all articles must follow Neutral point of view, Verifiability, and No original research. I've read most of the discussion and it seems that both parties care a lot for Asmahan's article on Wikipedia and want to broaden its spectrum. I hope after this discussion is closed Supreme Deliciousness and Arab Cowboy continue to work on improving the article with all the references and knowledge they have about the subject.

After reading all of this discussion I became confused about facts and Original Research. All the references displayed in this discussion will be displayed in the article as long as they're reliable sources. So please both parties display here a fact and its reference and please don't comment on why this fact is a fact. Just put in points your facts and next to them your references. I think that Supreme Deliciousness and Arab Cowboy in the end are saying the same facts just with a different wording. I hope this will lead to a consensus in a short period of time. Before consensus has been reached please don't change the lead. You can however replace the many citation needed templates with your references. Please Supreme Deliciousness and Arab Cowboy don't revert each others edits and restrict your edits on placing references and expanding the article. Again, please place under the fact header your facts with your references with no opinions added. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Syrian nationality

1. "Asmahan's parents were Fahd al-Atrash, a Syrian Druze from Suwayda"(Page 81, "Images of enchantment" http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+syria , "and 'Alia al-Mundhir, a Lebanese Druze from Hasbaya".(Page 81, "Images of enchantment" http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+syria

2. "The al-Atrash clan Asmahan and her family was from is a notorious Syrian Druze family, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s." http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/Joshua_Landis_Druze_and_Shishakli.htm (The Great Syrian Revolt) http://books.google.com/books?id=Ej8ZMk1822sC&pg=PA72&dq=sultan+al+atrash (Her father- al Atrash clan, "Images of enchantment" Page 81) http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+syria "Trouble erupted with the colonial power after King Faysals defeat and the Adham Khanjar incident which Sultan al-Atrash and his men had participated in. 'Alia fled Suwayda with her kids" (Page 81, "Images of enchantment" http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+syria)

3. (two important words here what was deleted by Arab Cowboy) "she returned to Syria where the marriage was celebrated in 1933, and gave birth to a daughter, Camellia. She lived in Suwayda, her home town, (Quote: "Asmahan was from Suwayda")(Asmahan's Secrets By Sherifa Zuhur, Page 98) http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria "She came from an important clan in the mountains of Syria" = Suwayda/Jabal Druze)(Asmahan's Secrets By Sherifa Zuhur, last page) http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA98&dq=asmahan

4. (later on) "while the rest of the family emigrated to Egypt (around 1923), where they were naturalized later on. (Quote:"Asmahan had not become an Egyptian citizen early on") (Asmahan's Secrets,page 98) http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria

5. And considering that her father was Syrian, her mother Lebanese and she lived the first years of her life in Syria and that she was born heading to the French Mandate of Syria, It is not correct to call her an Egyptian in the first line of the article. Asmahan did not abandon or give up her Syrian background: (Quote: Asmahan paid attention to the news, she was concerned with two fronts, Egypt and conditions in Syria) (Page 90) http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria


Notes: here below in the Egyptian Nationality section on nr 6, Arab Cowboy refers to page 95 in a book, that page is not viewable online. Also in nr 7, he refers to page 165, that page is also not viewable.

Not sure who wrote the above, but reliable sources are not required to be online. I have quoted the referenced text where possible. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:09, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Egyptian nationality

1. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash were of Syrian (father)-Lebanese (mother) origin. There is no evidence to confirm that they held either citizenship. When they arrived in Egypt, the Atrash family possessed no passports. source: (1) Asmahan's Secrets by Sherifa Zuhur. page 39 and (2) In this live interview, at Time 4:34 with Fuad al-Atrash, he states that the al-Atrashes had no passports when they arrived in Egypt, among many others.

2. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash immigrated to Egypt at 5 and 8 years old, respectively, in 1923. sources: (1) Asmahan's Secrets, pages 34 (Asmahan born in 1917 or 1918) and page 38 (family immigrated to Egypt in 1923). and (2) Syria & Lebanon By Terry Carter, Lara Dunston, Amelia Thomas, Lonely Planet Publications. page 72 (Farid born in 1915)

3. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash became Egyptian citizens. sources: (1) The Evolution of Rai Music Hana Noor Al-Deen, Journal of Black Studies, May 2005; vol. 35: pp. 597 - 611. and (2) article dated 23 May 2008, by Abdel Fadil Taha Al-Quds Al-Arabi "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع", which can be translated to: "The whole family was granted Egyptian citizenship, and they enjoyed it, including Asmahan of course....".

4. The entire bodies of work of both artists, Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash, were made in Egypt and virtually all was in the Egyptian Arabic dialect. sources: (1) Female Singers in Egypt and (2) The Druzes in the Jewish state By Kais Firro. page 240: "after they had moved from Jabal Al-Duruz to Egypt, Farid and Asmahan never again sang in the Syrian dialect".

5. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash's adopted homeland was Egypt. sources: (1) World Music: "they are Egyptian by adoption" and (2) Asmahan's Secrets: "The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt.".

6. Asmahan was regarded as a "foreigner" by her own clan when she was married to her cousin in Syria. When her marriage to her cousin failed, she returned immediately to her adopted homeland, Egypt. source: Asmahan's Secrets. page 95: "For the singer was in many ways a sophisticated "foreigner" in her home province - a binational, or a transnational as we might say now...", page 18 "when asked to sing of cultural patriotism and love, she sang of Egypt", and page 216 "her quest for individual happiness may indeed have been more strongly motivated than her patriotism to her clan". and

7. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash insisted on being buried in Egypt. sources: (1) Sherifa Zuhur states, on page 165, quoting the Egyptian Gazette newspaper, "Asmahan wished to be buried in Egypt". (2) Farid died while on a visit to Lebanon and his body was flown back to Egypt for burial. Sami Asmar states here that Farid's older brother, "Fou'ad stressed Farid's wish to be buried in Cairo". See also (3) here too.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 10:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Conclusion from the facts

First of all it seems that there are so many sources but none of them have been added to the article to complete the "citation needed" templates. With that many sources you could probably bring the article to Featured status if both of you work together. I see that the facts don't contradict each other and should all be added to the article. The article should be restructured to start with "Early life" which should include three paragraphs about her family, birth and immigration. Another section should be created about her marriage (She was 15?), return to Suwayda, divorce and her career during that time. The word "returned" can be added as long as there is in the early life section a mentioning (with reference) that she lived in Suwayda until she was five. The word "home town" may not be added as it is subjective and "home" can only be specified by Asmahan herself. The fact that her mother was Lebanese should be mentioned, however nationality at that time was according to the father. There is no specific date when they got their citizenship, Arab Cowboy if u find such evidence you can put it forward, however it can't be contested that they got the Egyptian citizenship. So therefore I give Supreme Deliciousness 24 hours to create all the requested sections integrating your references and if capable Arab Cowboy's section. You may not alter the lead before later discussion. If Supreme Deliciousness isn't capable of doing this work within the next 24 hours, Arab Cowboy gets the job. Please Supreme Deliciousness if u don't have time or the willingness to do so say so. Arab Cowboy after his changes you can propose changes to what he added. You may not revert anything before discussion. You may however add information whenever possible, however also after the 24hours deadline. I hope we can solve this issue before the end of the week.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 12:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa abdelmoneim, you give me authority to freely edit the article in 24 hours? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm telling Arab Cowboy not to revert any of your edits within the next 24 hours. You're an established User and are very capable of writing unbiased sections.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 12:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa abdelmoneim, ok thanks, I will begin later on tonight, and I will send you a message when I'm done so you can take a look at it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, Arab Cowboy would u have a problem with that?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, before editing can begin, please list the "facts" that are agreed upon, consistent with those listed above. Is the lead still up for negotiation? I think the only thing missing from the lead is the importance of her work. Also, in her photobox, there should be no mention of any Syrian music, for sources show that she never sang in Syrian. I only know of a (one) Lebanese song that she sang, outside of her entire repertoire in Egyptian. So, she had no Syrian music to speak of. The word "returned," if used to mention Asmahan's move to Swaida, will also be used to refer to her move back to Egypt after her divorce. After SD writes the first draft, I will have the right to edit the whole thing, and add new sections, in a new draft subject to discussion. Is this agreeable? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
All the facts are agreed upon unless otherwise noted in my first reply under "Conclusion from the facts". The lead is for negotiation after the main body is fixed. As I said before Supreme Deliciousness is not to change the lead until he finishes his draft and a lead with three paragraphs should after that be created. Supreme Deliciousness is going to start later tonight, I hope however that he specifies at what time exactly. The word return can be used about her return to Egypt. Arab Cowboy you may not alter anything he writes. You can only propose it here and then it's up for discussion. You may however expand with your information without discussion. Which Supreme Deliciousness can contest here but not remove. If Supreme Deliciousness is going to start later then I'd suggest you start with the changes and he awaits his turn. You may not skip any of the facts he posted and the same Supreme Deliciousness.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, ok, I'll be patient for 24 hours and agree to your arrangement. Please note, however, that this article is about Asmahan, not her family (there are other articles about Al-Atrash clan, and the family has a branch in Egypt who are Egyptian citizens) and any subjective expressions or "facts" without reliable sources will be removed. The article should generally be weighed proportionally to the amount of time she lived in Syria versus the amount of time she lived in Egypt. Thanks for your help. SD may proceed if these guidelines are agreed. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:35, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Everything about her family that relates to her life and the circumstances she grew up in should be added. The early life section should also have a {{see also}} template that goes to the Al-Atrash article. In the meantime till [[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness] finishes his editing, I suggest you create a todo section in this talk page suggesting what changes are to be made so that this article would mature and expand.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm glad everything here seems to be settling down. I just want to state about the genres, that Syrian should be removed. It is clear from the sources that she sang in the Egyptian style. Unless someone could bring up a source that backs the claim that she also sang in the Syrian style, that will have to be removed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Arab Cowboy and Supreme Deliciousness, I find the improvements to the article by the two of you very good and of a very high standard. It seems however as of now that there is no information on the legacy of Asmahan in Egypt. A museum has been created for her legacy in Syria, her influence in Egypt or Syria isn't mentioned though. The TV show has many references that I sent Arab Cowboy as he knows arabic and can use the references. Nothing has been added though. The Voice characteristics section is totally unreffed which makes it a candidate for removal. Her influence in Egypt or Syria isn't mentioned anywhere, which is another problem. So anyway aside from that, does anyone of you have any comments on the info added by the other? Is anything not factually correct or sth.? After this has been cleared, there is a clear conclusion from the article and the fact's contents that both of you can understand. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 01:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Diaa, I am still working on the sections that you mentioned and gathering information. I have read the information you sent on the TV series and am in the process of translating parts of it. Will make the changes in the weekend; week is a little busy. I am not sure what you mean by "influence". Please clarify. I will also make some more general comments. Regards, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 07:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Critique of the expansions

List here any critic on the writing of the others. I'll review each allegation and state my comments.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 08:44, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments on the info added by AC.

1."'Alia chose to escape to Egypt because Egypt was under British, as opposed to French, mandate" This is somewhat a repeat of my "they headed to Haifa to escape the french altogether."

The fleeing to Egypt should be merged with the Immigration section. I'll take care of it and you could state your opinion on that. The sentence "they headed to Haifa to escape the french altogether." isn't correct. The source states they went "to Haifa and by train to Egypt" in connection to "escape the french altogether". Through singling out Egypt from the sentence it shows that their first choice to Escape the French was living in Haifa. This isn't clear from the source and as such is misleading.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

2. "and she knew of a written correspondence relationship between Sultan al-Atrash and Egypt’s then popular prime minister Saad Zaghloul, each fighting colonial occupation on his respective turf." .. What is this? Was this the reason she fled to Egypt because she knew of a written correspondence relationship between two leaders?.. and if Zaghloul was popular or not brings no substance to the article.

This could be one of the reasons she fled to Egypt. She wanted to hide her name so that the French wouldn't find her and take revenge, which was achieved by losing the passports and having a prime minister as a correspondent in Egypt. This has to be stated. However the word "popular" shouldn't be there as it is ambiguous and a prime minister is popular whether good or bad. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
The source added by AC for this is a youtube video, my arabic is far from good, so can you please check through it?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

3."Alia drove south with her children, Fuad, Farid, and Amal al-Atrash, to Haifa in Palestine," This is somewhat repeat of what I added. "they headed to Haifa to escape the french altogether."

Yes like above I'll move some of the first section to the second.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

4. "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely." This is guessing.

Correct, this can't be stated even by Sherifa Zuhur.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

5. And the rest of the text AC added should be in another section since it has to do with her career life and not immigration to Egypt.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

"Marriages and Personal life"

6. He added "Asmahan had not actually lived in the Jabal in childhood, she had spent those early years in the family's residences in Lebanon and Turkey and only been to the Jabal for visits."

While the source says at page 36: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

"In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s. Still it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her familys consciousness rather then her familys residences in Turkey and Beirut."

This isn't a conflict to the above, "She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s". The word "home" is connected to her family (father, mother...) which were Druze and saw Jabal Druze as their home. This however doesn't make sense cause if she didn't live on Jabal Druze then she wouldn't flee the French. Could u look for another source that would clear this up?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes its is, because AC added that she didn't live there while the sources are saying that she did live there. The original sentence is this "her childhood in the mountains of the Druze" so she had her childhood or part of it in the Jabal, original sentence: "She remembered a happy and carfree period" So it was a period that she lived there. Original sentence: "She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself" Beacuse she wasnt born there so she lievd soemwhere else before and her mother fled early in Asmahans life. And also it would controdickt info in the same book, page 38: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 Read the "Flight" section Amals(Asmahans) emigration, her mother 3Alaia fleeing Jabal, as has already been added to the article, so this shows that she indeed did live there. She wasn't born, there so this was maybe a period of when she did live there. And this sentence: "rather then her familys residences in Turkey and Beirut." does not mean that she as AC wrote "she had spent those early years in the family's residences in Lebanon and Turkey" Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, the sources: Asmahan's Secrets on p. 36 and this one, 4th paragraph make it clear that Asmahan did not live in al-Jabal in childhood, but went there only on visits. It is, probably, during one of these visits that the raid occured, or that the raid occurred at another place named "al-Qrayya". Alia initially fled to Damascus then to her home in Beirut when the raid occured. Asmahan's Secrets on page 39 states that Alia did not consider the home in al-Jabal to be her home, but her husband's, i.e., she was not living there, and refused to go to it when her husband sent a cousin, Salim, to summon her. It is argued, also in Asmahan's Secrets, p. 38, that "Alia never felt comfortable in al-Jabal," and when the French bombarded "al-Qrayya" (not sure if this is the same as Swaida) she left for Damascus and would not return. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

1.This source that AC is refering to is controdicting the book: http://www.asmahan.com/profile/index.php "Asmahan's father died in 1924, when she was only six, and her family then emigrated to Egypt" while according to the book Asmahans Secrets he was still alive when they fled "When shelling of the al-Atrash home in Suwayda began she left for Damascus and refused to return. Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to bring her back together with his kids."

2.AC claims that Asmahans Secrets on page 36 "make it clear" that Asmahan did not live in Jabal during her childhood. This is not true: Asmahans Secrets: "Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s." The writer makes an assumption at the end In asmahans secretes page 36 it also says that they had a large stone house with a servant, this means that they indeed did live there. http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 And on page 81 in Images of enchantment it is written that the family returned to the Jabal, and she left after the problems with the french. http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Images+of+enchantment

3.AC also writes: "the home in al-Jabal to be her home, but her husband's, i.e., she was not living there" The link says nothing about her not living there.

4.What AC later writes has already been explained in the article :"The fighting with the french continued for almost a year after. 'Alia couldn't endure the hostilities anymore. She was still mourning the deaths of Widad and Anwar, and felt that she must protect her other children. When shelling of the al-Atrash home in Suwayda began she left for Damascus and refused to return. Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to bring her back together with his kids. After receiving Fahds message 'Alia told him that the only way her children would return to Suwayda was if he killed her, but that Fahd in return would be cursed for the deaths of they're children (as in they would be killed of the fighting in Suwayda) Salim gave her all the money he had, thinking she would eventually return when the chaos would end in Suwayda. 'Alia and her children moved on to Beirut but after being notified that she might be arrested by the french to force a ceasefire in Suwayda" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:20, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


7. He also removed that she had returned to Syria. and added the word "returned" to Egypt instead.

This is dependent on 6.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

8. . This can not be found in the sources: "Asmahan agreed to the marriage proposal on three conditions: to live in Damascus as opposed to the Druze mountain (the Jabal); to not be forced to don the hijab; and to spend her winters in Cairo."

I guess Arab Cowboy is the one who answers this.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

9. This can not be found in the sources: "Asmahan was to grow increasingly lonely and frustrated with life in the Jabal" The original sentence is this: "She could not stay away from the stage for long, however."

Will rewrite.

I request from Diaa abdelmoneim, to re write this sections and actually follow what the sources are saying.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

  • It seems that the Syrian or Egyptian Identity is an issue that is discussed in multiple books and sources. I guess a section about her identity would be useful stating the difficulty in determining how she saw herself. I'm not sure if she got the Egyptian passport, she has been deported multiple times it seems, which can be found here http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html . I guess a section like that should be created. I propose again ceasing editing until I somehow restructure the first three sections. In the meantime you can write about her involvement in WWII as it seems this would be crucial in the identity issue. Th Death section is also largely unreferenced so I suggest you (SD or AC) work on that too. The legacy section should be expanded with the info about the film created and the museums created for her. I'll do what I can in the meantime, which we could discuss again later on.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, her identity is very clear. She referring Jabal as "home". And look here on page 37, http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 "Asmahan always refferd to her relative Sulatan al Atrash along with her father to assert her lineage and status, She told a friend: "Dont you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al Atrash and cousin to the Amir al Atrash amd the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see this section. I explained some of this below, but basically I have an issue with the tone of many sections. It's just too informal sounding, and at times seems irrelevant or is glorifying her too much. Some examples:

  • "'Alia couldn't endure the hostilities anymore. She was still mourning the deaths of Widad and Anwar, and felt that she must protect her other children."
  • "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely."

There are others as well, but I think the article just needs a general scrubbing. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 17:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Tag removal and more cleanup

I'm removing the RfC tag, since I think we've sort of come to a consensus here. Or at least the issues that caused the need for an RfC have passed. If anyone disagrees, please go ahead and readd it. As a side note, the last handful of edits are pretty poor, in my opinion. The text is entirely too informal. We're not here to tell stories about her life - people can read that on their own if they want. And to reiterate, this page is not a fansite. Let's examine.

  • "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely." - Come on. There's no source for that, and it's pure conjecture.
  • "'Alia couldn't endure the hostilities anymore. She was still mourning the deaths of Widad and Anwar, and felt that she must protect her other children." Same thing. She felt that? There's no source for that.

There's a lot more. I'm inclined to go through and remove statements like these if they're not well-sourced (and no original research or synthesis with the sources, please!) but I'll allow for a few days to get more sources in. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:08, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The main issue has not passed, which is the first line of the article labeling her as "Egyptian" That part about her Immigration to Egypt was added buy AC and I have already pointed out in the Critique of the expansions section that it should be removed. That second one about 'Alia couldn't endure... is sourced, page 38 http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA98&dq=asmahans+secrets --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:34, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
So do you want me to add the tag back? It seems like we've got a few more editors involved now. And as for that second one, even if it is sourced, that doesn't mean it should be included. Wiki isn't an indiscriminate collection of info. This article doesn't need to mention every single thing that ever happened in her entire life. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:44, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
No need to ad it back, but the issue is far from over, the mediator said we would talk about that later and first focus on the rest of the article. Yes sure but, it follows a red line in the text that explains her emigration from Syria: "The fighting with the french continued for almost a year after. 'Alia couldn't endure the hostilities anymore. She was still mourning the deaths of Widad and Anwar, and felt that she must protect her other children. When shelling of the al-Atrash home in Suwayda began she left for Damascus and refused to return. Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to bring her back together with his kids. After receiving Fahds message 'Alia told him that the only way her children would return to Suwayda was if he killed her, but that Fahd in return would be cursed for the deaths of their children (as in they would be killed of the fighting in Suwayda) Salim gave her all the money he had, thinking she would eventually return when the chaos would end in Suwayda. 'Alia and her children moved on to Beirut but after being notified that she might be arrested by the french to force a ceasefire in Suwayda, they headed to Haifa to escape the french altogether. They finally arrived in Egypt where they were naturalized later on." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:49, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
So we have an entire paragraph of text in there that's not quoted from the source? That's copyvio - and therefore should not be in there. At the very least, it needs to be heavily shortened in the article and fully sourced. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 17:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
What? the whole quote I added here above is re-written and not copied from the book, all of it is sourced, click on the references and read the pages.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:14, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Ah, sorry, I thought what you wrote above was quoted from the book. And I can't read the pages, some of them aren't available on Google books. (?) — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 17:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
It depends on which link you are using, some links can show pages in the same books others can not, try this one: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Identity Section

The statement made by SD in this section is unscientific and should be removed. The source states that it was made by Asmahan in a certain context, and it was taken out of this context by SD. The author, Sherifa Zuhur, stated that the statement was, in fact, inaccurate: Asmahan was not the cousin of Prince Hassan, but "actually a third cousin twice removed". More importantly, the author stated that it was "cuttingly accurate" that that lineage had no meaning at all in Egypt. It was a statement, even if true, that was made as a boastful bluff to a "friend" and was taken out of context by SD. The only thing that matters in this regard is the Identity that Asmahan chose for herself. As the sources show, Asmahan had not lived in Suwayda in childhood and, when married to Hassan, she could not get accustomed to life in the Druze mountain and grew to despise married life. Additionally, when it was time for her to choose between Syrian and Egyptian citizenships, as this source (http://ramsesthesecond.livejournal.com/32835.html) shows, she demanded a divorce a second time from Hassan and set on a road trip to Egypt to salvage her Egyptian citizenship. She married Ahmad Salim to help her in this cause. The source says: "Asmahan was in tight spot, between losing her throne again and the end of her money also the loss of the Egyptian nationality, so she had to wait for any chance which came true when she met the Egyptian actor Ahmed Salem and married him to move with him back to Cairo from Jerusalem.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nefer Tweety (talk • contribs) 11:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Livejournal posts are not reliable sources for a number of reasons, including WP:SPS. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

The statements by Nefer Tweety (I believe Arab Cowboys socupuppet) here above are all lies in his quest to falsify this article and undermine everything Syrian and ad the word "Egyptian" as much as he can everywhere.

He first claims that the section is unscientific and should be removed, although the quotes are direct from Asmahans own mouth so how is this unscientific? And both the administrator Al Ameers son and the mediator Diaa abdelmoneim has asked for an identity section.


1. He claims: "source states that it was made by Asmahan in a certain context, and it was taken out of this context by SD."

Now let us take a look at the sources at page 36 and 37 in Asmahans Secrets: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 This is direct copy from the sources: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refferd to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status, and to substantiate her ability to act for the British. She told a friend, "Dont you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al-Atrash and cousin to the Amir al-Atrash and the Druze Revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash" "So what does that mean in Egypt he replied? Your clans, your tribes, your princes are meaningless here" She was living in Egypt at that time and was on her way to her mission in Syria. Then the author writes "This statements was cuttingly accurate, as the Egyptians had their own complex web of elite families."

He claims that "The author, Sherifa Zuhur, stated that the statement was, in fact, inaccurate: Asmahan was not the cousin of Prince Hassan, but "actually a third cousin twice removed"." Now lets take a look at the sources: "(although she was actually a third cousin twice removed)" This has nothing to do with the whole statement being false, this is the author pointing out that they were not first cousins but third cousins, and this has nothing to to with Asmahans comments about her identity.

He says: "the author stated that it was "cuttingly accurate" that that lineage had no meaning at all in Egypt." exactly as a comment from Asmahans friend to her, her friend is saying that what Asmahan just said has no importance in Egypt, this has nothing to do with Asmahans self identity, what is acceptable in Egypt or not.


2. He says: "The only thing that matters in this regard is the Identity that Asmahan chose for herself." Exactly and the only sources quoting her in this matter have I already added in the section and you are trying to get them removed. So what is this agenda you have?


3. He says: "As the sources show, Asmahan had not lived in Suwayda in childhood" This is a complete false lie by Arab Cowboy, there is no source showing this, it was AC himself that added that, the sources showed indeed that she did live in Suweida.

Page 36 in Asmahans Secrets: "Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s." Her childhood in the mountains, she did not spend much time there. Meaning she did indeed live there but not for a long period of time. Also on page 36 she talks about they're servant and their stone house. This is a quote from page 38 in Asmahns Secrets: "It was infact the Adham Khanjar incident that sparked Amals(Asmahans) emigration to Egypt. Alia was not willing to endure another phase of hostilities in the Jabal..." This is direct evidence that what AC/Nefer Tweety are saying is false. She did live there for a period.


4. And then he brings in a blog as if this is some kind of reliable source and makes radical twisted statements that even the blog doesn't mention.

AC/Nefer Tweety says: "when it was time for her to choose between Syrian and Egyptian citizenships, as this source (http://ramsesthesecond.livejournal.com/32835.html) shows, she demanded a divorce a second time from Hassan and set on a road trip to Egypt to salvage her Egyptian citizenship."


This is what the blog says: "yet her marriage didn't last longer as she started having too much troubles with her husband which ended by divorce, Asmahan felt strong longing to artistic life after her first marriage ended so she returned to Cairo to restart her artistic career." "Asmahan got introduced personally to the director Ahmed Badrkhan and their relationship evolved quickly until they got married in the same year, yet their marriage was unstable and ended so soon after few months by divorce. by that time, Laws in Egypt didn't permit any citizen to have double natinalities, and when Asmahan was the princess of the mountain, she lost her Egyptian nationality, also her second marriage ended so rapidly that she couldn't gain back her Egyptian nationality"

and: "Yet Asmahan's situation didn't remain as good as it is and again she started having troubles with her husband which ended by divorce. Her money also ended and she found herself obliged to ask for more money from the English who refused to help her any more, and during this year, General Edward Spears admitted that Asmahan was helping the English side but she is a big mouth and alcoholic and that he stopped all relationship with her. Asmahan was in tight spot, between losing her throne again and the end of her money also the loss of the Egyptian nationality, so she had to wait for any chance which came true when she met the Egyptian actor Ahmed Salem and married him to move with him back to Cairo from Jerusalem where she was living after her divorce from prince Hassan."


The guy is a lier. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Watch your spelling, it's "liar", not "lier". --Nefer Tweety (talk) 22:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry Allegations

Latest comment: 14 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

This thread was originally a response to this addition to the RfC; it was changed in this edit.

Your first edit on Wikipedia is commenting on an RfC? A rather suspicious start... I hope someone isn't puppeting... — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 18:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Nefer Tweety is Arab Cowboys socpuppet, the same language bringing up the "15:48, 2 July 2009" that no one supports, talking about "Egyptian nationality needs to be in the lead" ... no doubt about it, its Arab Cowboys socpuppet.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
"A suspicious start"? Why? I find it interesting to read the debates going on here about various topics. I never participated in one before, and I am not sure I will involve myself into this "edit warring". When I saw you opened RfC, and I read the options typed above, I thought of contributing by stating my opinion, and what I typed above was what I strongly supported from the very beginning. I was going to support either of the options anyway. If I had supported SD's point of view, would I have been considered SD's "socpuppet" by Arab Cowboy? What a disappointment! --Nefer Tweety (talk) 19:49, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Annyong,
  • that kind of reply would have been expecetd from SD, but you are proving your alliance with SD and your partiality. Your trend ALL ALONG has been to jump to conclusions without carefully examining the evidence. What a good 3O you make! You had stated that you did not want this section to be a continuation of the warring, yet you have done just that. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:42, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Nefer_Tweety and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/82.201.252.219

=

Arab Cowboys Soc puppets. Two accounts/ips, show up, both of them, first posts they ever make on wikipedia is to add a comment on this RfC. Using the exact same language and phrases as Arab Cowboy. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness, you had no right to call me somebody's "socpuppet". Judging people that way is completely unacceptable. Did I have to support your point of view? Your comment gave me the impression that there are some personal issues between you and AC, and that your attempts to edit the article are not really for the sake of improving it (hope I am mistaken). That's why I have decided to again support what I previously stated in the RfC. So, think what you want! But I am telling you again, it is how you are thinking that is making me insist more on getting myself involved here. Why is it difficult for you to understand that there is always a "start" for everything! But you know what, you keep thinking you are surrounded by conspiracies, so I am not really surprised. --Nefer Tweety (talk) 22:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry Investigation Conclusions

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:11, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

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