Talk:Arab-Berber

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Berbers which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Nonsensical page, to be deleted

This article is nonsense. Why are the millions of Imazighen (Berbers) who exist in North Africa (and have always existed) considered Arab-Berbers? When they are not of mixed arabian descent, do not speak majoritarily Arabic dialects (they speak berber dialects), clearly know the difference between Arabs (Aɛraben) and Berbers (Imaziɣen, or sometimes Išelḥin) and have different cultures, different history, different genetics etc. Yet this article wants to give us the impression that somehow, they are "still Arab". This article is clearly a remnant of the pan-arabist ideology, an unscientific and racist ideology born in some Arab supremacist middles in the 20th century. Needs to be deleted. 2A04:CEC0:10E2:B7BD:2DD7:9238:550A:518D (talk) 00:24, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Based on the overwhelming number of RS, I basically agree with this judgement. The first source quoted in this article does NOT speak of such a notion as "Arab-Berbers" and I doubt the others do. If anything, this article should be renamed Berbers in North Africa, but everything notable about them is already included in the article about Berbers. As it is really misleading and contradicts both RS and Berber identity in real life, it should be deleted. Munfarid1 (talk) 14:03, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Then provide those "overwhelming number of RS" as a countervailing argument. As for your dismissal of all 34 of the quoted sources because "the first" source doesn't "speak of the notion", well after only the quickest of checks I note that the first source (the CIA world factbook entry for Algeria) DOES use the term Arab-Berber (in the people and society section). If you instead meant the first quote in the body of the article (the encyclopedia of the world's minorities), again from only a cursory glance it while it might not use the specific term, it does talk about intermarriage between the two groups right at the top of the second column. As I said below, I don't know what the truth is, but your argument as presented here thus far is extremely unconvincing. Gecko G (talk) 19:23, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Where does this article claim that ALL Imazighen/Berbers are Arab-Berbers?

I'm an outsider so I'm not sure what's true on the ground in the Maghreb (I hope to visit someday though), but as I see it this article is one of three things:

A) As you say a hold-over of pan-arabism

B) Talking about a population separate from both the Arab and Berber populations, or

C) talking about the ethnic spectrum and/or mix within the Maghreb.

If it's A), then provide RS refuting such older claims. If B) I'm not sure how the article is different from the Arabized Berber article, and one should be merged into the other. If C) that should be more clearly explained in the article to prevent such misunderstandings.

Gecko G (talk) 19:13, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Discussing here won't achieve anything. If you think this should be deleted then start a discussion at WP:AFD. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:40, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

As myself a person of Arabized Berber descent, I think this article clearly doesn't state that all Berbers are "Arab-Berbers", or even that Arab-Berbers are "still Arab" more than Berber. I believe the article should be better sourced and clarified, especially to distinguish Arabized Berber (ie a person of Berber descent but of Arab cultural identity) and Arab-Berber (a term with a wider scope, including people of mixed descent or of mixed cultural background). Chaotic Enby (talk) 14:24, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Population figures

The population figures for countries like Algeria or Morocco do not distinguish between Arab and Berber, including both under "Arab-Berber". This doesn't seem to correspond to the definition used in this article, where Arab-Berbers are considered as a population of mixed origin and/or of mixed identity. I'm not sure these figures should be kept, as they are probably wildly inaccurate (for instance, Kabyle people, despite not being Arab-Berber for the most part, are still included in this count). Chaotic Enby (talk) 14:30, 16 May 2023 (UTC)