Talk:Ani-kutani

Citations needed

This is fascinating, and i presume that it is accurate, but some reliable sources need to be cited. There are also a good many "weasel words" that need to be clarified.

• "According the the legends, they killed women and children..." Are these legands recorded? How can they be verified, particualrly by soemone who is not a Cherokee?

They are in Reference 2 of Cherokee.

Can you provide a page number reference or other citation, please, when you have a chance? DES ^(talk) 19:25, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

• "...the legends of its existence may have been what inspired Sequoyah to perform his great work" what evidenence is there for this?

Current Theory from online discussions -- see 491 hits on Google. Several websites of Cherokees make this argument

Then this should be made more explicit. If some names of scholars or other people who hold this view can be cited, along with a web url or two that point to useful discussions of this view, it would be helpful. DES ^(talk) 19:25, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. References section updated. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

• "the legends of the Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni are believed to have inspired Sequoyah to recreate a means of writing for the Cherokee people" who belives this, and whre do those who belive this say so?

Current Theory from online discussions -- see 491 hits on Google. Several websites of Cherokees make this argument

Then this also should be made more explicit. If some names of scholars or other people who hold this view can be cited, along with a web url or two that point to useful discussions of this view, it would be helpful. DES ^(talk) 19:25, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

See References. Already Done. Wilma Mankiller is one of the References. I think she is credible. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

• "It was legend among the Cherokee that the Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni were able to record "the words of the people upon the wind"..." Has this legend been recorded anywere, or have people (Cherokee's or others) recorded being told this legend? Where and when?

Yes. Cherokee, Google 491 sites and on-line discussions, and the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya writings.

good. some specific citations would be helpful. DES ^(talk) 19:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. See References. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

• "Although it was widely held by the Cherokees that the Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni were all destroyed, a small group of their descendants hid among the people in secrecy and marched the trail of tears." This and subsequent sentnances are stated as fact. What is the source? how can this be verified?

Writings and history of An-ni-ku-ta-ni, Can be obtained from Paul Smith, leader of the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya in Grassy, MO. Published in ancient writings, also republished in Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya newsletters sent monthly. See Ref 3.

That is helpful. If this periodical can be cited by issue number and date, and page is it is large, that would be particualrly helpful. If it doesn't have issue numbers, by date or what ever other bibliographic info is avaiable DES ^(talk) 19:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Have to dig for that one. The date was October of 2002. I will update the References Section. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

• " In September of 2002, the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya and Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni performed the ancient ceremonies on the spot where the Cherokee people crossed the river, and believe that the true culture, spirituality, and brotherhood of the people was restored according to ancient written prophecies." Is there any publicly available account of this event?

Yes. Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Newletters, published monthly, and sent out everymonth from the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Religious Organization. (I have copies) Can be faxed if you provide fax number. Central Organization also has them.

• Current status everything in this section is stated as fact. Are citeable sources availabel for any of it?

Yes. Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Newletters, published monthly, and sent out everymonth from the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Religious Organization. (I have copies) Can be faxed if you provide fax number. Religious Organization also has them.

No need to fax them. Name of the newsletter, issue number and/or date and how to get copies for those who might want them is a fully adaquete citation. DES ^(talk) 19:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

• "It is currently believed that the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith visited the Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni in the early 1800's during his excursions into Missouri..." Who belives this? The Mormons? the Cherokees? Cherokee scholars? non-Cherokee scholars? Can a source be sited where any person or group of people say that they hold this belif?

Only the Mormons believe this. Its contained in their Journal of Discourses, and the Archives of the Mormom Church.

Then we should edit this to say "Momrons belive" or "Many mormons belive" or "some mormons belive" (whichever is correct) and cite the Journal properly byu title and issue date/number, and page number if available. DES ^(talk) 19:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I will have the mormons do this one. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Three references are currently given, but it is not clear which statements in the article are supported by which references. I hope that more detailed citations will be provided to support the statements in the article. DES ^(talk) 19:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Can be if researched and the time spent to footnote the entire article. There are a lot of claimed "Cherokee" groups who don't really know their culture. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.137.28.187 (talk • contribs) 14:17, 23 September 2005.

Which makes them much like many other people. It eoulfd be highly desireable to footnote or otehrwise reference this article better, IMO, and to clariofy the useage of words like "belived". If you like, if you provide the facts i will do the footnote formatting. Or you can do both if you prefer. DES ^(talk) 19:21, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll put the cites in the references section, and you can footnote the article. The newletters don't have versions and they are written in Syllabary (most folks can't read them probably). But there is some english text in them that headline events. I can ask for english only versions. 67.137.28.187 19:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, I'm more than willign to work with you on this. I do need to know where specifically (or as specifically as possible) a researcher would find support for each statement. DES ^(talk) 19:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Write to Paul Smith, leader of the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Religious Organization, He is United Keetoowah. HCR 64 Box 816 Grassy, MO 63751

Cititations added

I have added what notes I could in the standard Wikipedia:Footnote3 style. Please check them for accuracy, and provide any further specific source citations available. Thanks. DES ^(talk) 22:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Your are awesome! Wa-do Tsv-ge-na-li (Thanks my friend). I will go through all the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya postings when I get home. 67.137.28.187 23:05, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Mixed reviews from assessment page

Complete and balanced (this has nothing to do with languages, and the article is terrible anyway) ---- Waya sahoni (22 Feb 06)

Synonomy and Cherokee and AniKutani

The information regarding the AniKutani is interesting however I see no point of reference. As a Keetoowah person and Historian, I would like to point out an historic reference that places the "Destruction" of the anikutani beginning in 1760. A trader- John Long- (Journal available) notes the morning mist brought with it an attack on the town he was residing in, (Chestua), rabbit town, a Yuchee/Cherokee town, and the "Cherokee" warriors swept through the town destroying the "priest" etc. This coincides with oral history in my family that indicates that the Christian Cherokees (ofthe newly reorganized Cherokee lower towns Government), began destroying any and all AniKutani throughout Cherokee country. Further, that the AniKutani (phonetic- Ani K'u tani--meaning of high knowledge) were also seen among other nations e.g. Iroquois, Algonquians -Muskogee etc and known to those as Inihi- Micco etc. My family record also states re Cherokee that Cherokee is not as is assumed, of Muskogee language derivation but is, from- Cheriaki anhaka, and Cheriaki targhe (Variously seen in early Spanish Journals), freely understood- (those of) the Fire. Acherra is the Keetoowah reference for Fire as is also Ocherra in Mohawk, (a related language). Three things must occur in placing a "word/ term", A. Location- (geographic) B. Time-and C. Intent. Asseen in Traditional records ofthe related Nations, Cayuga, Mohawk, Onondaga, Senneca, Oneida, (and Wyandotte), the "Cherokee" were traditionaly known and freely refered to by all surrounding Native Nations as the "People of the Fire". In the case of Cheriaki anhaka, the reference is originally to the Central Fire. The location of the Central / Principal seat-Fire of the Cherokee. This location is seen on a British War department map -c. 1755 The map is "The British Colonies in America": and clearly shows the great Ohio Valley region and the Appalachians and specifically the Cumberland’s of E Kentucky. Along the Cumberland’s is written "Ouscioto Mountains". Ouscioto is translated as Was Cherra Oto. Understood as (the) Central Fire. Oscioto being an adapted British form of Wascherra oto. More literally it is aWasCherra- (primary/ core/ Fire- and Oto "Lodge". Various references of the Lene Lenape circa 13-1500's identify this geographic as the center of the Alligewi (a term used by Lenepes to define those of the cave country) The Keetoowah. Time (C13-1400s & 1755) Geography-Map Cumberland’s -and Intent-the "intention of the term as a describer of (a) central Fire all come together to define Ouscito as the ancient (pre 1492) central home/ fire of the body later known commonly as Cherokee. That this body was (over a 350 year period C.1300s to 1600s,) driven from the central home lands to more southern reaches by a combined Wyandotte and Lene Lenape push from the North, seems to escaped the notice of contemporary history. Also not seen is any indication that any descendants of AniKutani survive, and I assure you, they do. Staiyu', Wahya, AniKituwagi

Siyo,

As to all the upstart talk pretaining to Ani-yunwiya = Ani-kituwahni (Keetoowah) = Tsalagi = Cherokee. The Real History is before us all in plain sigth, yet we are use to golden BS....

All Cherokee are Ani-yunwiya, regardless if we perfer to say Kituwak, Keetoowah, Tsalagi, or just plain Cherokee.

The Lenape History, as well as a host of other Tribal History speaks of our Ancestors. We were the Mound Builders, than the Western Invansion of the Lenape brougth about the 350 year war which raged, that is where the concept of a South movenment came about and the fall of our Priesthood.

We did had a form of writting back than before the fall of Ani-yunwiya (even though we still are Ani-yunwiya) Each Village have a scribe. As for the attack in the early 1700s by the Southern Cherokee village on other Cherokee Villages, it did not pretain to any of the Old Priesthood, it was on due to that the Southern Cherokee Band attack those that would not embrace the new religion, which in turn they lost their land base. The Treaty of 1721 brougth that in to existance.

At no time there any of us had the right to kill.... Know and learn our Blood Law first and foremost before speaking. Otherwise, why do you think know one speaks of the old Legends any more at our Ceremonies ?

Wado Crazysun

Cherokee "women and baby killers"

The citations regarding the killing of men, women and children are disputable. While Cherokee priests may have killed men, women and children, there is no reliable record of these killings. The legends were probably stories exaggerated by European settlers whose racism, cultural dominance and ignorance of the native population lead ultimately to their demise. No full-blooded Cherokee live today; even the tribal elders are 50% or less Cherokee blood. The stories are shrouded in mystery; their origins, as well, seem to lack precise citation in this article. - signed by anon IP

I disliked the claim of Cherokee Indians are killing other tribes ruthlessly or with no reason, what kind of interpretation of Native American warfare in pre-European contact times? There have been tribal warfare between certain number of tribes for thousands of years, the arrival of Europeans ever since have created alliances like let's say the British and Iroquois during the French-Indian war of the 1760's. From what I know by the mythology, the Anikutani clas was exterminated by the common people in a similar way a nation state goes through a proletarian revolution to depose a ruling class. The anon IP's claims of "no full blooded Cherokee" today is far fetched, the current tribal member blood degree quantum rule goes by the percentile of ancestral blood a person has, except nobody not even the tribal board themselves can declare someone completely "full blooded" in terms of geneaology.

+ 71.102.32.144 (talk) 05:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

This article is ahistorical

There is simply no convincing evidence as to the truth of this article. Stories about a pre-Sequoyah writing system, for instance, are not supported by any serious scientific evidence.

Much of this sounds like "New Age" revisionism of traditional Cherokee culture. - signed by anon IP

I don't see the point of the article, whether it's describing an actual event preserved by prehistoric oral record by the Cherokees or a repertation mainly by European-American historians said to hold a degree in Native American history. I knew the mythology behind the Anikutani priesthood of ancient Cherokee society, but the article is confusing on how the sequence of events happened or taken place. The Cherokee syllabary was a 19th century invention, not to revive an ancient scripture of a sacred religious caste. There are other myths of the origins of Anikutani were white Europeans (Celts or Vikings?), Semites (Biblical Hebrews) and east Asians (i.e. Chinese or the proto-Turks known as Turanians), but the most reasonable claim would be the Anikutani are another tribal group of peoples indigenous to the Southern Appalachians range once in control of the Cherokee people. + 71.102.32.144 (talk) 05:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Claimed internet "historians" from Oregon State

For the "claimed historians" the preceeding sections on this talk page demonstrate A) the person commenting is not a Native Speaker of Cherokee. (Wahya is not spelled this way in phonetics or syllabary) and B) they have little or no contact with the Aniyvwiya or Cherokee Society and are quoting out of the same inaccurate books (which do not even mention the AniKutani). There are sections on Cherokee Mythology listed here and the existence of this mythology is verifiable and meets WP:RS and is accurate.

I do agree that the comments about baby killing are unsourced -- and have been removed. TsiGeGa 23:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say that this article is a "New Age" hoax and distortion of a Cherokee myth or legend. It appears that the distortion is driven by a desire to high jack the Cherokee. Also are there any state or federal recognized cherokee tribes in the state of Missouri? Just asking. I have added to this article what I can validate from the Cherokee history written by James Mooney., LoveMonkey 04:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Updated article by Cherokee Editor

I updated and cleaned up the section on James Mooney, added Benny Smith of the Cherokee Nation Oral Traditions and creation stories, removed POV materials, cleaned up artcle, updated sources.

Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 02:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Uncited claims and speculation

This article contains a great amount of material that is uncited and seems highly speculative. I would like to encourage one of the article's regular contributor's to attempt to find citations, or remove the uncited and speculative material. If preferred, I could do this myself. The Jade Knight 01:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The article is well cited. Unless you are an expert in this area, perhaps you should consider relying on experts in Cherokee History to review these materials. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 07:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I removed the materials related to the Mormon church since this religion has been established by Native American historians to be fraudulent cultural theft of Cherokee and Micmac Religious beliefs, culture, and language. Thank you for pointing this out. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 07:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Organization of article?

The organization of this article might need to be re-visited. Under the "Current Status" section, most of the information seems to relate to origin legends/mythology/beliefs. This information might be better located in the "History" section, or in an entirely seperate section? Mylorin 21:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Link to article on Grassy, Mo folks

http://www.semissourian.com/story/1188119.html

Request from Grassy, MO Group

The Grassy, MO group have sent me a formal request to remove any information about them from Wikipedia they considered confidential or that is classified as native american antiquities. They further stated they felt that editors on Wikipedia were responsible for creating a barrage of harassment including harassing telephone calls by being listed here. Since WP:BLP may apply in this case, I have honored their request and removed all uncited materials from the article. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that ANYONE can edit, it would be logical for THEM to make the request directly. --Kebron 19:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

If they have an issue, they should contact the Wikipedia Foundation directly. If they wish to threaten legal action, they should contact the Foundation directly, and not through you. -- ArglebargleIV 21:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not think it will get to that point since I am sticking to cited sources on this article. They have been told the same. I am more concerned about them being pissed off at me than doing something to me. It's all about good will after all. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 04:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Wild Claims

From above...

I have personally seen documents and carvings that are thousands of years old, and I even paid to have one of these items radio-carbon dated -- it was written circa 4200 B.C. Now its your turn. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

That's an extremely bold claim, and one I would expect to see backed up by serious scientific papers. Language scholars take this sort of thing very seriously, and the Ani-kutani having a system of written language before the Sumerians, before the Chinese, and, in fact, before almost every other civilisation, would be a major shakeup in our understanding of how, where, and when, language moved to written form. Claims like this are the sort of thing that make or break scientific careers, especially given the generally accepted fact that the Cherokee Syllabary was produced in 1821, some 5 and a half thousand years after your claimed date. As such, you'll forgive me for saying that, in the absence of published documentation of your claim, I simply don't believe a word of it. IP address same as SCOX account. France

I am having a very hard time accepting an anon IP from France as knowing anything in this area. Despite all this needless drama, I plan to stick to cited sources on this topic. You do not see any such materials in the article do you? There is a pre-sequoyah writing system, and no, it has never been published or made available to grave robbing academic types, it has not even been distributed widely among the Cherokee themselves. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

especially given the generally accepted fact that the Cherokee Syllabary was produced in 1821,

Sequoyah's Syllabary was created in the 1790's and was in published print prior to 1821. Get your dates straight. Also, I don't think its outside of the realm of possibility, after all, The Meso-Americans were performing brain surgery on people when folks in France were still living in caves and praying to Mut, the Earth Mother and using spears. European culture has this amazing attitude of superiority when something like this is mentioned, so I can understand how upsetting it would be to established academic types. The patina on one of the tablets contains carbon particles (probably from camp fires) used in the dating. It may not be totally accurate -- the again it may be. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

And I (and others) are having a hard time believe many of your claims because they are simply not verifiable. Since they're not verifiable, they don't belong on Wikipedia and only barely qualify as belonging on the talk pages. If you have a source which is verifiable by others on Wikipedia, then it can be discussed. If not, then it falls into the category of hearsay, which isn't acceptable for any arguments here. Indiana University IP Address.

What can be verified is listed in the sources of the article, and these sources make these claims. Even if you take me out of the equation, these sources remain. And I've got some distressing news for you. These artifacts exist and have been verified as authentic to time period. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 20:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't find that distressing at all: its not publically verifiable information, so its just hearsay at this point. As the person who "paid for the radio-carbon dating" it certainly counts as Original Research (and possible Conflict of Interest to promote this discovery) and doesn't really count for anything. If/When (but mostly 'if', since several of your claims have been followed up with utter silence) this information becomes available for research by the scientific community, it'll be interesting to follow. -- That IU IP address. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.79.32.152 (talk • contribs) 12:18, 13 July 2007

No, I don't see these claims in the article, I see them in the talk page, seemingly in an attempt to say that the article covers something other than oral history. Whatever the reason for posting, however it's a very interesting claim, and one that many of us "grave robbing academic types" would be very eager to see proof of. I think you'll find archaeology has moved on from the days of Lord Elgin, these days these sort of things tend to be treated with the utmost respect and deference, as one would expect when dealing with relics that not only valuable scientifically, but also culturally.

Radiocarbon dating may not be incredibly accurate, but it's a start, and having verifiably ancient writings dating back beyond anything we've seen thus far would shake certain portions of academia to its roots, and somewhat raise the profile of the modern descendants of those ancients. Despite your sarcasm below, I'm not at all interested in a "my ancient culture was better than your ancient culture" argument - in fact you'll note that I only mentioned the Sumerians and the Chinese (although I could have mentioned the Indus as well), none of whom are particularly European.

If we assume your claims to be true, then the cherokee have managed against all the odds to keep a closely guarded secret away from the rest of humanity for a good few hundred years, during massive cultural and social upheavals. Frankly, that would be a shame, such a document (or documents, if I understand your comment correctly) could be massively interesting not just in terms of understanding of mesoamerican culture, but in terms of our understanding of humanity in general. Maybe if that's the case, it's time to open up to the outside world a little.

One other item, this group are not Cherokee, they are Ahniyvwiya. They disavow all association with modern Cherokee culture. From their perspective, the Cherokee were the "killers of Kutani". They are of our bloodlines, but they are culturally distinct from the Cherokee People as they exist today. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 21:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this. The artifacts will be available for public viewing when the ancient stories are read for the first time in over 500 years at the council lodge being built in Grassy, MO. At this time, academics may come and study them. The story they tell is incredible. I will post the dates and you and your associates may arrange travel for review of these materials. They record a history of North America which has never been seen outside of this group. Prepare to be shocked. There was a second bridge to North America during the last ice age and people came from both directions. These writings state that a group of people went back to what is now Ireland (not called Ireland in these writings) around 4000/3000 years ago (dates are not precise and can only be guessed at), which may explain why the matrilineal clan system in ancient Ireland so closely resembled that of the Iroquoian confederacy. At this time, the proof you require will be available. And yes, it will alter all fundamental understanding of North American History. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 21:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I apologise wholeheartedly for any offence caused by wrong dates, that goes without saying. The date in question was, however, taken from http://www.cherokee.org, where 1821 is frequently listed as the date of the Syllabary's completion, for example : "The completion of the syllabary was accomplished after his arrival in present-day Polk County, Arkansas. He returned east in 1821 to present it to the tribe, and then returned to Indian Territory in 1822, where he first taught the written language in the west."—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.193.108.232 (talk • contribs) 21:25, 12 July 2007

Ani-yunwiya

Siyo.

Again this individual will try to shed some form of Ligth upon this issue. No, I don't have no documents, nor any educable degrees in any fields, except in life. So my words are just my words, yet with common sense.

Our Traditional name was, and is, and shall always be "Ani-yunwiya", translated into English (American verison) meaning "Pricinple Stock/Root" though normarly know as Pricinple people.

There did exist a Society of Ani-kutani, and in some ways still exist in one formare another. Yes, we could use the words "priest-hood". But those individual lost control, power way before the Mound Building era.... That is where the story/legend of the "Four Brothers" came into existence, comonly known as the "Pale Face One" that went East into the sea's.

The Story of the Four Brothers, is what brang into existence of the seven day fire Ceremony that is no longer preform in modern times. Back before Colonial times, every Village would build a gaint Bomn Fire facing the Eastern sea/ocean and it would burn for seven days and seven nigths diuring the spring storms, so that the Brothers and Sisters that traveled into the Eastern Sea would be able to return to their Home land. This went on through out the Mound Building Era.

Than many generations later, back around 800 Ad, when the lenape people invaded the East through the crossing of the Mississippe (Known as the Great River), at first it was a small group of Lenape families, Counicl was called and all the major red leaders wanted nothing to do with the Lenape, Yet the Medicine Society (which was never housed under any Band or Clan) thougth that maybe these werid (Lenape) people were kin of our Brothers and Sisters that went Eastward into the Sea.

Well word was sent out to all the Major Bands (Mound Villages) which was well over ninty some Bands, that Cahokia was goning to have a Grand Counicl pretaining to these lenapes.... It took years to accomplish this, bu by than more Lenape People cross the Great River, and little minor incidents delevoped, and as more happen people of both cultures were being killed, war soon delevoped.

Buy this time, Another Group of Lenape People were entering into modern day New England area through Canada.... And certain Bands of Ani-yuniwya in that area embrace the new people as being a part of them, while others didn't so war4 between familys delevoped, and after many generations of figthing, that is how the original Iroquois League began.

And at the same time, at Cahokia and a host of other major Mound sites (villages) fell to the Lenapes. The war reached all the way into the Ohio Valley. Through Out this time a lot of the Priest-Hood was being killed off due to the fact that they are the ones that were willing to embrace the new strangers (Lenape People), yet at the Same time abunch of minor Priest gather together in the East, which later formed in to what we know today as the Susquehanna (Priest/Warriors).

When the spanish touch down on the Island in the gulf of Mexico, Ani-yunwiya was a couple of gernations into rebuilding their Society back into their original form, where upon new diseases traveled northward and beganing killing off a lot of our Elders that still held on to a lot of ancient knowledge. Yes we still had a forn of Ani-kutanie in existent., and there were still Lunar as well as Solictis Priest men as well as women.

I think, not sure, but the last person that is know as holding knowledge of the Lunar was Dragging Canoe, though there are some today that do lay claim to some of the knowledge as well as a title, which the last part is debatable.

It is also a known fact that when a host of Southern Ani-yunwiya embrace the new religion in the mid to late 1500's, they began to build a power base, and as their power grew, they destoryed many of Traditional Villages and such that refused to give up their Tradiutional base of power which wasn't a power base.

Think, you take a hunderd people which all have equal rigths, equal voice.... It takes time to organize anything of importance. Now you take two individuals , sereparte them and give them a host of gifts to distute among the other ninty eigth people. those two people began to create self people of importance. As time goes on, you began to favor one of them buy gifting them more gifts then the other. The rest is plain common sense....

Now we are here in modern times, with three Federal base of Ani-yunwiya (Cherokee), and each one lays claim to holding true Traditions, yet a lot of our Ceremonies are not performed no more, the Law of Blood is forebidden, and all three are control by rules that are not of their making. Two of those federal bases lay claim to beginning the real Treaty Holders.

Than we have the sad fact that yes there are many of us that are living and breathing that are Ani-yunwiya that are not a part of neither Three Federal Base, and at the same time there are a host of others that may or may not have any true claim to the heritage that confess to being a Big Shot Medicine or Chief.

I for one, was born being of the Cherokee Heritage, and yes I have another heritages flo9wing through my veins being Ani-yunwiya (Cherokee), Chickasaw, Choctaw, Susquehanna, Mohawk, Creek, (And other unknown tribal Heritages) as well as German, Irish, Scott and other unknown heritages. Which one am I, I am all of them, but I was born and rise with the knowledge of being Cherokee, I didn't know anything of the other heritages into I was past the age of twentyone. Now I am in my fiftys....

Any one from the three Federal base, are no more and no less Cherokee/Ani-yunwiya than me or anyone else that has the heritage flowing within their veins. A person that is part Black (African) and part White (European-American) marries a Spanish-Japanisn, and has a child, what is the Child ? better still what is the person that is part Black and part White ?

Wado Crazysun

Email crazysunzak@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.84.137.125 (talk) 02:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Writing system?

I would appreciate it if someone with a better grasp of Ani Yvwiya history than myself would research the claims that the Ani Kutani had a written language and post their findings here. I recall that many were initially troubled by Sequoyah's syllabary because they thought it was sorcery, presumably recalling the writing of the Ani Kutani. Any insight would be appreciated. 70.144.30.122 (talk) 16:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

A lot of what I see above that some of the posters here are so impressed with is nothing more than a bunch of wannabe New Age crap. The part about the Ani-Kutani having a writing system, though, that sounds like it may have come from John Howard Payne, who wrote down a bunch of that stuff before the removal began in 1838. One theory about the Ani-Kutani is that they were "foreign" to the Cherokee and spoke a different language, so the proposition of their having a kind of writing system would not be unreasonable.

And in case anyone is wondering, Ani-Kituwa = Ani-Yunwiya = Cherokee. Anyone who says differently is a liar or so lost in the world of make-believe they can't tell fantasy from reality. And there are no Ani-Kutani, not for centuries. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 16:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Whoever set up this page originally, and from some of the so-called "sources" cited I suspect it was one of the New Age wannabes I mentioned above, so completely screwed up the system of making references that standard Wikipedia usage is no longer possible. So, it'll be old school. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 17:21, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

"Different story"

I removed the "Different story" material because the contributor cites two books that both quote a paragraph from the same source. This is Raymond Fogelson - "Who Were the Ani-Katani". He states in the original that he is discussing two different things, the Ani-Katani and the "Cherokee Fire Kings". What was added to this wikipedia article relates to the Fire Kings, not the Ani-Katani. Fogelson also notes that he is taking dramatic license with both to explore Cherokee thought. Odestiny (talk) 05:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

"conjurers"

Would "shaman" be a better word to use?... AnonMoos (talk) 01:01, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

No, shamans are healers from the Tungus tribe of Siberia. Conjurers are not healers. -Uyvsdi (talk) 01:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi