Talk:Aleksandar Berić/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) 09:05, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Good job on this, but it could do with additional information and sources used in the Drava article to balance it. A few comments:

Lead

• the lang template for his name should probably be sh-Cyrl not sr-Cyrl, he was born in A-H and served in the Yugoslav navy.

• Done.

• suggest "he oversaw the downing of three Luftwaffe Junkers Ju 87 Stuka dive bombers on 12 April by his anti-aircraft gunners"

• Done.

• suggest "In 1942, Berić was posthumously awarded the Order of Karađorđe's Star with Swords, 4th Class, by the Yugoslav government-in-exile."

• Done.

• suggest "In 2002, he was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honour of Serbia and Montenegro." and link

• FRY, actually. Done

• "The headquarters of the Serbian River Flotilla in Novi Sad is also named after him."

• Done.

• suggest including the types of ships he served on, alongside their names

• Mentioned that he served on other ships in various capacities, but I feel mentioning all the names is too detailed for the lead, which is now of a decent length.

• missing is the detail of what Drava got up to between 6 and 12 April (see the monitor article), ie shelling an airfield in Hungary and engaging the Hungarian gunboats

• Excellent point, added.

• the killing by fifth columnists is a pretty extraordinary claim given he was in a strongly Serb area when the ship went down. I would want someone corroborating Terzić's musings, particularly given the 2014 article in Novosti and Freivogel state he was killed by the bomb, and Terzić is quite big on blaming fifth columnists for just about everything

• Now the text simply states he was killed. Readers wishing to know more can read about the contrasting accounts in the body. Terzic attributes the fifth-column claim to the writings of Anton Simović, who based on a cursory Google search, appears to have writen books on Yugoslav naval matters.

Body

• what ship was Torpiljar 1?

• The T in Yugoslav torpedo boat T1 stands for Torpiljar (torpedo boat).

• as above, the detail of what Drava got up to between 6 and 12 April is missing

• Added.

• the Politika source is rather, ahem, hagiographical and mythical. The idea that a captain would stand heroically on the open deck of his ship while it was being attacked (and hit) by dive-bombers is farcical. Bomb fragments would have been flying thickly, even from the near misses. He was most likely in the armoured conning tower. I think that source is only good for basic details that aren't contradicted by other less "fruity" sources

• As far as I can see, I have only used this source to cite some basic biographical details, how many crew members were killed and the claim he chose to go down with the ship, which also comes up in other sources. The article makes no mention of Beric standing on the open deck.

• The Terzić version of the sinking is being given as the primary version, and it needs to be better balanced with other versions especially Shores, Cull and Malizia. Again, there is more information in the monitor article. The "going down with the ship" bit is rather "heroic", again sourced to the Politika article.

• I have contrasted Terzić with Shores, Cull and Malizia. Your thoughts?

• Shores, Cull and Malizia don't say anything about the deserters, but that bit (and the rest of the para above it) is sourced to them. That fails verification.

• Excellent catch, this is from Terzić , p. 409 and was incorrectly sourced to Shores, Cull and Malizia. Corrected.

• same comment about the Order of Karađorđe's Star and Medal of Honour in the lead

• Boljanovic mentions this in the news article, in the side panel titled Otkriven spomenik Aleksandru Beriću

• same comment about are/is from the lead regarding the barracks.

• Boljanovic mentions this in the news article, in the side panel titled Otkriven spomenik Aleksandru Beriću

Just the MOS and images to check. Will do that tomorrow. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:11, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

• Belegiš is dup linked

• Fixed.

• the infobox image page doesn't provide a verifiable source

• I can't find the image being used online (other than Wikipedia) before 2018. Removed.

• G'day Nikkimaria, would you mind giving me your opinion about the licensing of File:Spomenik heroju Berić Aleksandru2.jpg? It is located in Serbia. Are there any implications regarding copyright of the artwork ie the sculpture of Berić? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:17, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

• Assuming it's in a public location, commons:Template:FoP-Serbia would apply. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:20, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I believe it is. Sadko will know. If that is the case, AB, you'll need to add {{FoP-Serbia}}. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:23, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

It is in public location. Best. — Sadko (words are wind) 23:42, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

That is it for the review. At present the article needs quite a bit of work to add freely available but missing information, and to tone down and balance the description of the events that led to his death. Placing on hold for the above to be addressed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:17, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank for taking the time to do the review, PM. I have addressed your comments above. I think the article is certainly in much better shape now. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 13:38, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

I haven't forgotten about this, just need to check on the way the death/sinking info is presented. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:54, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I still think the Politika article is just repeating "heroic" Serbian Navy propaganda. According to it, quoting some junior naval officer (Dragan Spasojević) who was speaking at the unveiling of the bust, Berić remained on the command bridge to the last moment and the last the surviving crew saw of him was he was saluting the war flag... Seriously? And (my rough translation) he went with the ship to the "unforgettable, to the immortal waters of glory and memory" and "wrote in golden letters the brightest pages in the history of the River Flotilla and the Royal Navy"? The command bridge on Drava was open and on the front of the superstructure above the forward turret! The same source also claims 12 German aircraft were shot down! Shores, Cull and Malizia state that the gunners on Drava claimed three, Freivogel says two or three. Frankly, given the journalist who wrote the article appears to have done very little fact checking, and most of what is said is just quoting Spasojević's speech, I don't think this source is usable for anything other than bare facts about Berić's life and career as well as the unveiling ceremony. Certainly not for details of the actual sinking. Frankly, the RTS article by Boljanović, while a bit better, is also pretty bad, repeating the story of him going down with his ship. This is an extraordinary claim in the circumstances, and if even Terzić doesn't mention it, then I really don't think it should be included. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: I've removed a few passages so that the sources are used as sparingly as possible for biographical info that can't be found elsewhere. Let me know what you think. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 19:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

G'day AB, sorry this has taken so long. I needed a bit of time to add in some contrasting information from S, C & M and Freivogel, and have been rather busy off-wiki. If there is no dispute on what I've added, I'm happy to promote this to GA. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:17, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

G'day AB, just checking you've seen this? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:26, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi, PM67. Apologies, I've been busy off-wiki as well. Yes, I'm fine with the additions you've made. Given the scarcity of source material, I think this is more or less the most expansive this article can be for the time being. Thanks for taking the time to do the review (and your patience). Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 12:26, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

This article is now well-written, verifiable using reliable sources, covers the subject well, is neutral and stable, contains no plagiarism, and is illustrated by images with appropriate captions. Passing. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 17:59, 19 September 2022 (UTC)