Talk:Albania/Archive 2

Can Someone tell me

Regarding the article Albania.

Someone keeps deleting a reference on the external links to the website www.TheAlbanians.com This website is one of the best albanian websites and it is in English. Who is deleting the link and why? Is this coming from a competitive site??? Thanks in Advance!

What About Jobs Finder Work From Home Jobs Legit Online Jobs

Vasil Gjika. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by VasilGjika (talk • contribs) 03:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

adding Albanian Movie Database  ?

What you guys think in adding the Albanian Movie Database? It realy helps, Albanian filmmakers, and other filmmakers that are interested in the Albanian Movie Database. This is the first Albanian Movie Database. This will help lots of students in Albania from the film school, and outside Albania. It will even help the Tirana Film Festival.

Wikipedia link: Albanian Movie Database

outside link : [http://www.logoreci.com/Albanian_Movie_Database] outside link : Work From Home Jobs outside link : Legit Online Jobs I have talked with some filmmakers in California and this website has more information then IMDB has for albanian film. nad don forget Albania should be proud not lots of countrys in the world have a film database....

Its USA, HONG KONG, INDIA, Albania.

see not alot. This statistics where made before the database was completed.

YOu guys do the rest. I did my part. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Niklogoreci (talk • contribs) 20:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

Berisha section

Here's some recently-added material I'm about to delete. It's not necessarily bad, it just needs to be better integrated with the section that immediately followed it.

===Sali Berisha - The First Democratic Albanian Government===

Sali Berisha was the first post-communist president elected. He, himself a doctor to the highest ranked communists, had been able to make a great turn and embrace the democracies of the Western world. Accused of setting up pyramid schemes, the comunist-driven gangs of southern Albania rose against him in 1997. 2000 people died in southern Albania that year. In order to avoid bloodshed, Berisha resigned. The democrats, politicaly the succesors of the Communist Party, took power again and held it for 8 years. But Berisha lead another assault against the left. He is now in power and serves as the Prime Minister of

Albania

--Rschmertz 04:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

There are some serious flows in the above section about Berisha. It's ambiguous and in many cases not correct and it should not be included in any part of this article. Especially the description of the events in 1997 has misleading statements.

First, Berisha did not resign. He was forced out of power. He himself considered the parliament elected after he lost his position as outlaw and a parliament brought to power by force. Indeed he didn't recognize the successive parliament until several years later.

Second, Berisha did not resign to avoid bloodshed during the confrontation of the army and with the "communist-gangs". It is well known that he already gave to the army the order of entering by force in several cities like Vlora etc. in which he had lost control. This would have caused much more bloodshed. The army just refused to do it and deserted. He left the presidential residence only after the institutions he controlled collapsed completely (police, teachers etc. did not go anymore to work, army refused to follow his orders) and he had no kind of protection except a handful bodyguards.

Third, it's true that there were gangs organized and directed from the opposition however they were not communist or had no communist ideology leading them and they played a minor role compared to the chaos that resulted from the uncontrolled anger of the population from the collapse of the financial pyramid schemes.

The article above is bad so don't include it anywhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.39.158.121 (talk • contribs) 07:48, February 9, 2007.

Corfu Channel Incident

I don't see how this Corfu Channel Incident has any real historical signifigance. This article should be an overview of Albanian history (i.e., what types of governments, demographic changes, border changes, etc.), without going into so much detail. This writeup has too much detail to begin with, and, again, I think it has no place in the main article. So I am taking it out and moving it to this Corfu Channel subpage, because, hey, it is a good description of an event that probably belongs somewhere. --Rschmertz 03:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• Reply: The incident was part of the reason for the historic tension and bad feelings between Albania and the Western powers, especially the United Kingdom. --Eastmain 22:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Poorly Written

This article is poorly written and is in need of a major revisioning. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ctitiquer (talk • contribs) 21:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

Do you have any suggetion if not please leave.The articul must define clearly the pelasgic origine of Albanians .There are many evidences about pelasgic origin of Albanian and the old "Greeks" which actually have the same origin , if you are interested you must know that with the Albanian language Nermin Vlora transleted with to day Albanian language 5000 old pelasgic transcript found in Greece, Aristidh Kola ( is in greek transleted as well)says that we have to protect Albanian language because is the language of Gods and heroes of Greece , he many other scholars explains the pelasgic origin of Albanian and the Albanian language as the base of other European Languages English included. Dodona.Further references may be added with your requests.

Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries

On the WikiProject Countries talk page, the section Location Maps for European countries had shown new maps created by David Liuzzo, that are available for the countries of the European continent, and for countries of the European Union exist in two versions. From November 16, 2006 till January 31, 2007, a poll had tried to find a consensus for usage of 'old' or of which and where 'new' version maps. Please note that since January 1, 2007 all new maps became updated by David Liuzzo (including a world locator, enlarged cut-out for small countries) and as of February 4, 2007 the restricted licence that had jeopardized their availability on Wikimedia Commons, became more free. At its closing, 25 people had spoken in favor of either of the two presented usages of new versions but neither version had reached a consensus (12 and 13), and 18 had preferred old maps.
As this outcome cannot justify reverting of new maps that had become used for some countries, seconds before February 5, 2007 a survey started that will be closed soon at February 20, 2007 23:59:59. It should establish two things:

• whether the new style maps may be applied as soon as some might become available for countries outside the European continent (or such to depend on future discussions),
• which new version (with of without indicating the entire European Union by a separate shade) should be applied for which countries.

Please read the discussion (also in other sections α, β, γ, δ, ε, ζ, η, θ) and in particular the arguments offered by the forementioned poll, while realizing some comments to have been made prior to updating the maps, and all prior to modifying the licences, before carefully reading the presentation of the currently open survey. You are invited to only then finally make up your mind and vote for only one option.
There mustnot be 'oppose' votes; if none of the options would be appreciated, you could vote for the option you might with some effort find least difficult to live with - rather like elections only allowing to vote for one of several candidates. Obviously, you are most welcome to leave a brief argumentation with your vote. Kind regards. — SomeHuman 19 Feb2007 00:30 (UTC)

Aboriginal Discoveries

I deleted the entire section because it offered no information specific to Albania. Frankly, those two paragraphs could be equally at home in almost any Balkan country article. Bcody80 06:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Tourism

Does anyone know about the current tourism information in Albania and a breakdown to somewhere like Tirana. This would be significant to this page because Tourism is a major factor in any country Thedec 09:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Evgjit

Stop removing them as an ethnic group as they do not consider themselves to be Roma. Here are two sources with them:

http://www.mfa.gov.al/english/pdf_files/Komentet_anglisht.pdf (in detail)

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=als (brief)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Azalea pomp (talk • contribs) 00:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

Since I saw that I had a new message on my Talk page, I responded there. --Rschmertz 03:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Prehistory?

To start off with a section describing Albanians as cave people who eventually abandoned caves seems a bit uncyclopedic imo. The major flaw of Wikipedia is wasting the reader's time with tautological filler. I think it shows how old is this land,I don't see any problem hmm

Anon considerations...

...made on the article itself [1] were reverted by me. If anyone knows the issue, please have a look. NikoSilver 16:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Minorities

User:Taulant23's persistent removal of any reference to Albania's minorities needs to be addressed by an administrator. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 23:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC) Yes, this is politically incorrect, you corrected yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- Minorities

Minorities,it needs to be put at the main article of Demographics. Thank you!

Why? Most of other articles about countries contain basic info about those countries' minorities.

ps. please sign your posts by typing ~~~~ in the end. Alæxis_¿question? 20:58, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Alexis, you are not even Albanian nor have you been there nor you know the demographics of Albania

Alexis you are Russian {Slav} so I don't expect you to edit Albania's history. Again stop your non sense by adding false numbers in Albania's page.Thank you for spending your time with Albania. Taulant23_¿question?

What Wikipedia's policies prevent Russian citizens to edit Albania-related articles?

Also what false numbers are you talking about when the passage in question doesn't contain any numbers at all:

“ Apart from the dominant Albanian ethnic group, minorities include Greeks, Aromanians (many of whom identify ethnically as a subset of the Greeks or Albanians), Torbesh, Gorani, Macedonian Slavs, Roma, Montenegrins, Bulgarians and "Egyptians" ”

Do you question the very existence of these minorities? Alæxis_¿question? 07:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems he wants the information buried in the Demographics of Albania article. But if information on minorities is good enough for every other country article, it's good enough for Albania. No special treatment is warranted. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 12:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

1-st NO Greek nor a Russian should edit Albania's page about minorities because you don't know nothing but "thank you" for spending ur time.

All I am saying is that Info about Minorities goes on the main article of Demographics, its consistent.

2-nd What I doubt is that you are the same user, with different account.When I can prove it I will let you know. --Taulant23 15:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

When you'll have gathered enough evidence go straight to WP:RFCU ))

Loves it. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Your arguments don't seem very convincing. Note that in the article about Russia all the biggest minorities (including ones that constitute less than a percent of Russia's population) are listed. Alæxis_¿question? 18:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Dodona part in Albania,Pelasgians are linked to Albanians, some answers or maybe the other side of the story.

To Tsourkpk:

1) Dodona is located in the mountains of northern Greece, 5 miles SE of the southern most tip of modern Albania and 30 miles inland from the Ionian Sea and there is remains of Dodona in Albania.

2) Herodotus , Hahns etc etc.The article shows the two sides of the story.Don't use it as nationalism nor am I.

The Illyrians were also Pelasgians{Pelazget in Albanian}, but in a wider sense. Moreover it is believed that of these cognate races, which are described by the ancient Greek writers as "barbarous" and "non-Hellenic," the Illyrians were the progenitors of the Ghegs, or Northern Albanians, and the Epirots the progenitors of the Tosks, or Southern Albanians. This general opinion is borne out the statement of Strabo that the Via Egnatia, which he describes as forming the boundary between the Illyrians and the Epirots, practically corresponds with the course of river Shkumbini, which now seperates the Ghegs from the Tosks. The same geographer states that Epirots were also called Pelasgians. The Pelasgian Zeus, whose memory survives even today in the appellation of God as "Zot" by the modern Albanians, was worshiped at Dodona, where the most famous oracle of ancient times was situated. According to Herodotus the neighborhood of the sanctuary was called Pelasgia.

3) Molossians, which are Greek tribes? hmmm with all respect that is not true. I don't want to go and argue for that right now.Everyone has their resources.

I would really preciate if Greeks won't delete anything in Albania article nor do I go and delete stuff in Greek articles. I assume a good faith.--Taulant23 16:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

• This seems to be turning into a revert war. Might I suggest referring to it as "Dodona (Greece)"? I think getting upset over this is a little silly as the link to the article on Dodona says in the very first sentence that it's Greek, so the claims of "ownership" seem a little overblown, but that's to an American's eyes and perhaps there is a subtext here I don't appreciate (if so, I apologize). Alternatively, if both parties are insistent on reverting and editing this back and forth, I would suggest mediation. Peace, croll 18:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised by this dispute. I've been to Dodona; it's about 20 km southwest of Ioannina, which last time I looked at a map was well inside Greece (see [2] for the exact location). It might end up in Albania in a few million years' time through continental drift, but none of us will be around to worry about that... -- ChrisO 19:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but I think the argument is not over whether Albania owns Dodona, but whether by mentioning Dodona in the Albania article there is an implied ownership. I don't think that's the case at all, but rather it's just a reference to related ruins which are in close proximity (which, as a traveler, I would appreciate), but someone seems to think it implies Albania owns Dodona. I don't mean to speak for Taulant23, but I don't think that's what he is suggesting. croll 19:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Dodona's a substantial distance from the Albanian border (50-60 km or so?), so I'm not sure the "close proximity" argument is really valid. -- ChrisO 19:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah... well, that's a good point. Taulant23 had said it was 5 miles SE. So, which is it, and if it's 50 or 60 km, then why is this being included? croll 19:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

croll You are right! Even though I have read & have enough sources aout Dodona linked with Albania (one of them Dodona is Albanian name, my Grandma is called Dodona] I think Dodona is mostly part of modern Greece.What I am saying is that, there are a lot of remains of Dodona in Albania specially in Southern Albania.Hoenestly, I never heard that Albania wants to claim Dodona but sure there are people who claim it because the way how it is written and spelled is Albanian & it was part of Albania once(plz see Ali Pasha ).

Dodona was the oldest of the Pagan Greek oracles, located in the mountains of northern Greece, 5 miles SE of the southern most tip of modern Albania and 30 miles inland from the Ionian Sea.Albania shares with Greece the peculiar phenomenon of subterranean rivers; the waters of the lake of Jamina flow through one of these underground channels into the Gulf of Arta, and this gave rise to the myth that here was the entrance to the infernal world of the ancient Greeks.

p.s. look what I found: After Scutari, Yanina is the largest and most interesting town of modern Albania. Near it are the ruins of the temple of Dodona, the cradle of pagan civilization in Greece. Illyricum Sacrum (Venice, 1751- 1819) Again I am not claiming Dodona,most of the good Greeks know that we share a lot in common. my $.2 --Taulant23 21:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see where the confusion is coming from. I think your reference is referring to the old Janina province of the Ottoman Empire, which covered northern Greece and southern Albania - as the name suggests, it was centred on Ioannina (Janina/Yanina). As I recall, it was ruled by Albanian vassals of the Ottomans (Ali Pasha and his ilk). So when your source is referring to "modern Albania", it's referring to Ottoman Albania, which covered a much wider area than 21st century Albania. Ioannina and Dodona are well inside Greek territory now, having been incorporated into Greece in 1913. -- ChrisO 22:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

And even then, referring to the Ottoman vilayet of Yanya as "Albania" is inaccurate and misleading. It may have been under the direct rule of ethnic Albanians for part of its history, but by no means were its habitants overwhelmingly or even predominantly Albanian. The concept of "Albania" itself dates back only to the Rilindja of the last century. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 23:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)??????

I got most of it and yes you might be right but the last sentence "The concept of "Albania" itself dates back only to the Rilindja of the last century. ·ΚέκρωΨ· " its ofending. Keep ya Greek nationalist BS for ya self or find a forum ΚέκρωΨ.

Even though I don't have to prove to you anything "because in my book you are a vandal user,specailly related to Albania & Macedonia articles" the Albanian language Albania and Albanians go way longer back in history.--Taulant23 06:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Greek nationalist BS? Piss off, mate. I'm not the one claiming Tirana as Greece's chief tourist attraction. Dodona has nothing to do with Albania. Never has and never will. End of story. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 06:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Tirana as Greece's chief tourist attraction?? hmmmm I guess you have been spending to much time in Australia and get all ur information from ur Nationalist sites who pretty much claim that everythink or everyone famous is Greek.

Moe, I can see that you are dreaming about southern Albania(as u call it North Epirus) DREAM ON BOY,DREAM ON.--Taulant23 17:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

---

Okay, well, I have a suggestion that I'd like to repeat and which seems reasonable (to me at least) given the additional discussion and background. Here's the way this read at one point during the revert war:

Fragments of Cyclopean structures, of the Cyclopean-Pelasgian period, were discovered at Kretsunitsa, Arinishta, and other sites of the district of Gjirokastra. The walls, partly Cyclopean, of an ancient city (perhaps Byllis) are visible at Gradishti on the picturesque Viosa River. Few traces remain of the once celebrated Dyrrhachium (today Durrës). The most important and interesting remains, however, are those of Dodona where the celebrated oracle of ancient times was situated.

I am making an assumption based on Taulant23's statements and the wording of the above excerpt that the ruins are, in fact, historically related (i.e., Cyclopean structures). My suggestion is to simply refer to "Dodona" as "Dodona (Greece)". The reason for this suggestion is that it is discussion of a series of ruins and refers to "the most important and interesting" remains as Dodona. If there is recognition that they're in Greece, well, that's a compliment to Greece, right? It is, admittedly, a tangent, but not completely unrelated and it is only a small tangent (just a sentence) and it refers the reader to the appropriate article while also acknowledging that the ruins in question are in Greece. As a reader, I find it an interesting reference that would prompt me to read more but that assumes there is a relationship between the ruins. Would this be acceptable? croll 01:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that is that this article is about Albania; the information on Dodona is simply irrelevant and belongs elsewhere. The original intent of the Albanian editor behind that sentence was not to exalt Dodona as the prime example of Cyclopean masonry (there is not a single reference to Dodona in the relevant article), but to include it in a random selection of Albania's ancient sites, i.e. a direct territorial claim against a neighbouring country. Whose "most important and interesting remains" does he mean, then? Greece's? Surely not; Greece has far more important ancient ruins. No, what he really means is that Dodona is Albania's most important archaeological site, which of course would be true if only it actually were in Albania. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

You definitely make some fair points. I still think there is a way to balance both of your concerns. Allow me to put it this way... These ruins and archicture are ancient. As you stated, they predate Albania which means they predate modern geopolitical boundaries. To arbitrarily put up a wall that prevents the discussion of related ruins is (I feel) putting form over substance. Taulant said it's not his intention to assert that Albania "owns" the ruins or that they're in Albania. We have to assume good faith and presume he means exactly that. So, although they're not within modern political borders, the ruins are apparently related to some extent. It is definitely not worth a long discussion, however, I would certainly agree with you on that. What about rephrasing the sentence like this, "The most important and interesting remains, however, are in Greece, where the celebrated oracle of ancient times, Dodona, was situated." This could even be put into parentheses. Having absolutely no interest in Greek versus Albanian discussions (chalk it up to American ignorance *wink*) I have to say it seems relevant enough to me that, as a reader, I would appreciate the reference and link. croll 13:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. What is located in Greece gets mentioned in the Greece article, what is located in Albania gets mentioned in the Albania article. That's the whole point of having borders. Any attempt to mention Dodona in this article is a mendacious, nationalistic attempt to claim greek territory and heritage. Being an American, I don't think you appreciate the level of fanaticism among Albanian nationalists these days, of which this Taulant23 (he even named himself after an ancient Illyrian tribe that has nothing to do with Albania, LOL) is a prime example. just look at the situation in Kosovo to see what I mean. you may be willing to give this Taulant23 the benefit of the doubt, but I know albanian nationalism from up close and know better. the matter is closed as far as I'm concerned.

(I'm assuming that's from Kékrōps Tsourkpk, but there's no signature.) Okay, fair enough. I'd like to hear what ChrisO and Taulant (and Kékrōps, now that I realize that wasn't him) have to say. If we can't come to some consensus among ourselves, and if there are editors who feel strongly enough that Dodona should be included, I would suggest putting this up with a Request for Comment. In the meantime, it's clear that this issue is pushing buttons and it seems that there is a personal history and animosity between a couple of the editors. Let's try to keep this civil and make sure we refrain from personal attacks. Thanks. croll 21:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

croll, I appreciate your willingness to mediate, but I'm afraid this isn't even a legitimate dispute. It's interesting that you assume that Dodona is "apparently related" to ruins in Albania. What do you base this assumption on? Until I see sources detailing such a relationship, I cannot accept that they are in any way linked. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 23:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's a fair question. I stated before that this was an assumption based on Taurant's representations and what I read in the various articles. I re-read your response earlier about the relationship between Cyclopean masonry and Dodona, and then I re-read the articles and looked at some other stuff online. While a review of articles that came up from a Google search does seem to indicate that Dodona is, in fact, an example of Cyclopean masonry, it doesn't seem to be held up as a particularly great example of that architecture. That said, I guess I agree that a bit more of an explanation is needed as to how Dodona is related to this listing of Albanian ruins and archeticture. croll 23:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Well my name is Taulant born in Tirana my brother’s name is Dorian, hmmmm How come Albanians are the only people who use Illyrian names???????????????? How come Illyria " the free" in Albania had kings that their names have meaning in Albanian languange and are used by the Albanians?

In the dark and solemn days of the wondrous lands, which would later be called the Balkans, there existed two people. One, that would later be known as the Greek people, and the other, the men that would form the nation of Albania. For centuries these two cultures would have many periods of cultural exchange and of cultural strife. There has been a distinction between the two very early on though. The Albanian, or Illyrian people, have been known to be as brute soldiers with strong features, white skin and the Greeks, on the other hand as the eloquent philosophers, dark skinned and famous on politics. - I went to Albania in the summer and it was very beautiful and the people were nice and I'm part Albanian.

Many times, Albanians are not even given credit for the war-like and conquering geniuses it once produced.

Many foreign Archeologists from U.S., Spain, France, Italy etc are finding more and more information about Albania’s ancient history, their ancestors Illyrians, their language etc. In these finds some Greeks who claim everything to be Grik have been furious because the truth is coming to light. There is remains of Dodona in Albania, go figure 5 miles from “the border” once was part of Albania but who cares right,I guess don't tell the Greek nationalists the truth. $.2 --Taulant23 00:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Tourism Sites and WP:EL

They may have been reinserted on accident, but please don't put these back in without discussion. These links look like they are for-profit tourism sites and, regardless, are not in English. Either way, they are inappropriate per WP:EL (4.1 and 4.3). Thank you. croll 17:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

what a shame the Hoxha's photo

I can't understand how you have attached the photo of Enver Hoxha,a person who has killed thousands of people and led Albania in a miserable state.

There is also a picture of Hitler in the article on Germany. Pictures aren't included because people are "nice" but because they're historically relevant. Please don't edit the picture link again without discussion on this page; it looks like vandalism. croll 22:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Pelasgians

The sentences "Herodotus, an ancient Greek historian in the fifth century BC, writes about the Pelasgians that continued to live in Greece. According to him, the language of the Pelasgians was different from Greek,[8][9][10][11][12]. but later assimilated into Greeks." have no place in the article. If Herodotus wrote about the Pelasgians "that continued to live in Greece", then that belongs in the GREECE article, not the Albania article. It's the same thing as Dodona all over again. The sources are also misused and inaccurate. I doubt that whoever inserted them has even read a single line from Herodotus. Also note how Herodotus himself is not given as a source. Overall the article is very badly written and needs a major cleanup.

The old Greek historians call Pelasgians barbarians

The old greek historians call Pelasgians barbarians. The Pelasgians appear at the front of all the historic traditions, not only in Greece and in Albania, but also in the regions from north of the Danube and the Black Sea, in Asia Minor, in Assyria and in Egypt. They represent the original type of the peoples so-called Arian, which introduced in Europe the first benefits of civilization. We find even today the traces of their ethnographic extension, as well as their industrial activity, on the three continents of the ancient world, beginning from the mountains of Norway, to the deserts of Sahara, from the sources of the rivers Araxe and Oxus to the Atlantic Ocean.

But their political history and the history of their civilization are lost in the night of time.

The few still preserved data about the Pelasgians show this great and fine people only in the last period of its history, when its political independence had been lost almost everywhere and when its name had started to disappear. And unfortunately, even these few, fragmentary data which have remained from the Pelasgians, are transmitted by those who had conquered them, destroyed and persecuted them, and later had calumniated them. Sad very sad how some Greeks can manipulate history.

Just rad Strabo in his Geography Strabonis Book 7 Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians. Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians

Who are pelasgians? Strabonis Book VII ....And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians--Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the thracians,and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei,the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes--Epeirotic tribes.

King Argo I rule; Perrhaebia's land my boundary is Northward, and Pindus' further slopes(means everything beyound that mountain=Epirus+Illyria), that watch Paeonia, and Dodona's mountain ridge. West, east, the limit of the washing seas (means West, east, the limit of the washing seas = thrakian seas(east)::adriatic sea (west) ) Restrains my rule-the interspace is mine. But this whereon we stand is Apian land....

---

Another fact,name Alexander the Great.

In Greek it means shield and etc

In Albanian it means A LE SI ANDER- BORN OF A DREAM( As Olympia from North Epirus called him the son of ZEU)

---

Another fact, Pyrro is not the greek genitive of Pyrrhos. You feel very desperate. You feel without hope.

It's "King Pirro" in Albanian. King Pyrrhus (nominal): ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΠΥΡΡΟΣ Of King Pyrrhus (genitive): ΠΥΡΡΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ so how do you translate this ΠΥΡΡΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ

King of Pyrrhus??????------or Pyrrhus of king?????? OF KING (genitive) ---for the king----pyrrhus (remains untouched) in nominal

---

Another fact,Strabon book VII

τῶν μὲν οὖν Ἠπειρωτῶν ἔθνη φησὶν εἶναι Θεόπομπος

Now as for the Epeirotes, [there are fourteen] tribes of them, according to Theopompus

τῶν-{ton}---------toni(alb-gheg)~~ tani(alb-tosk)----now(eng) μὲν-{men]---------me(alb)-------with(eng) Ἠπειρωτῶν-{ipeiroton}----tribe name ἔθνη-{ethni}------ethni(alb)--------ethnic group(english) φησὶν-{fisin}------fisin(alb)--------the tribe(english) εἶναι-{enai}-------na(alb)----nga(alb)-----from(english) Θεόπομπος-Theopompus------person name

As you can see they are preserved in Albanian almost untouched.

Let see now ἔθνη-{ethni}------ethni(alb) It comes from the word etn(alb-gheg)___etër(alb-tosk)-----Fathers(english)

Let see the singular of "etën"

AT(alb)-----------father(eng)----vader(dutch)---pateras(new greek)------padre(it)------отец(russian)------padre(spanish)-----Vater(ger)-----patera(mycenian)

From the oldest(and primitive) form come the newest form. Albanian is the source.

FRAUD HISTORY, I hope in Wikipedia there are guys or girls who can find the truth and its the biggest irony that Greek nationalist are dissing Slavo-Macedonians for calling themselves Macedonians??? Glory of Greece right?

God bless all. My $ 0.2 --Taulant23 06:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

p.s.Malakia ·ΚέκρωΨ· I am going to the river this weeknd so have fun ok buddie,delete everything u want, everything that is for Albania, everything that scares u...maybe even my message lol that will be so LOw

Gëzuar! Your hilarious attempts at pseudo-etymology have definitely made my weekend. Ancient Greek came from Albanian, did it? "Albanian is the source", after all, even if there is no evidence of its existence prior to the 14^th century AD and Greek has been attested since at least the 14^th century BC:

References to the existence of Albanian as a distinct language survive from the 1300s, but without recording any specific words. The oldest surviving documents written in Albanian are the "Formula e Pagëzimit" (Baptismal formula), "Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spirit Senit." (I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit) recorded by Pal Engjelli, Bishop of Durres in 1462 in the Gheg dialect, and some New Testament verses from that period.

— Albanian language#Historical Considerations

Keep them coming, I haven't laughed so hard in ages. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

LOL Prove me wrong on this one but thank you though Baptismal formula its not that old:Here read again!

READ KID,Strabon book VII

Now as for the Epeirotes, [there are fourteen] tribes of them, according to Theopompus

τῶν-{ton}---------toni(alb-gheg)~~ tani(alb-tosk)----now(eng) μὲν-{men]---------me(alb)-------with(eng) Ἠπειρωτῶν-{ipeiroton}----tribe name ἔθνη-{ethni}------ethni(alb)--------ethnic group(english) φησὶν-{fisin}------fisin(alb)--------the tribe(english) εἶναι-{enai}-------na(alb)----nga(alb)-----from(english) Θεόπομπος-Theopompus------person name

As you can see they are preserved in Albanian almost untouched.

Let see now ἔθνη-{ethni}------ethni(alb) It comes from the word etn(alb-gheg)___etër(alb-tosk)-----Fathers(english)

Let see the singular of "etën"

AT(alb)-----------father(eng)----vader(dutch)---pateras(new greek)------padre(it)------отец(russian)------padre(spanish)-----Vater(ger)-----patera(mycenian)

From the oldest(and primitive) form come the newest form. ALBANIAN is the source.As you can see they are preserved in Albanian almost untouched......

p.s. thank u my $.02 LOL.

It's interesting, isn't it? The main territories inhabited by the Pelasgians in antiquity are in fact in Greece, but they aren't mentioned at all in that article. Why are Albanians so intent on promoting a connection to an obscure ancient people to whom they are only peripherally related geographically and not at all temporally or ethnolinguistically? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Typically nationalists make this sort of linkage, to the supposedly "originial" inhabitants of a particular place, to justify territorial claims ("we are the descendents of the indigenous people, so this land belongs to us"), something known by the German term Urrecht.

Revanchist justifications are often presented as based on ancient, or even autochthonous occupation of a territory, known by the German term Urrecht, meaning a nation's claim to territory that has been inhabited since "time immemorial", an assertion that is always inextricably involved in revanchism and irredentism, justifying them in the eyes of their proponents.

— Revanchism

Given that the territory the Pelasgians inhabited corresponds almost completely to the borders of Greece, this would essentially imply territorial claims over all of Greece, which I think is too much even for the most lunatic and wild-eyed of Albanian nationalists (although we shouldn't understimate them). Otherwise, I think they would do something like that to imbue their nation with the prestige that comes from being associated with a civilization of great antiquity. For example, I have heard of Hungarian nationalists claiming that they are the descendents of the ancient Sumerians. Since it seems unlikely that Hungarian nationalists would have a territorial claim over southern Iraq, their only reason for doing so would be to associate themselves with what is most likely the world's oldest civilization, and the prestige that comes with it. Such a syndrome would therefore seem typical of a tribe or nation that suffers from a collective inferiority complex with respect to their more advanced neighbors. Tsourkpk 23:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)Tsourkpk

---

As Taulant I am not claiming anything, I am a scientist, I don't care too much about politics.Most Greeks I had met are good people but some facts and sources about Pelasgians are good to be brought up.Prove me wrong; than you can prove wrong the ancient Greek writers and Roman philosophers. Specially,Herodotus never linked Greeks with Pelasgians, next read the German or Italians authors like G . Catapano "Thot parlava Albanese" .. in Eng. "Thot spoke Albanian". Albanian languange is very old.

Most of ancient Indo-European languages have already been divided into groups and sub-groups. Most part of them are exactly defined and related to other. The only area where discussions still continue is the problem with the so-called Paleo-Balkan languages.

Greek tribes were among the first to part from common Indo-European people and language. They arrived in Europe, as every scholar knows, in two waves - in XXII-XX and in XIII-XII centuries BC.The first Greek tribes came to Aegean peninsula not only from Asia Minor, but mainly from Balkans. Paleobalkan tribes left the original place in Central Asia or Asia Minor with the first wave of migrants, together with Greeks and Armenians. Armenians left in Asia Minor; Greeks went farther to Aegean peninsula.

Balkan tribes, let us call them Thraco-Illyro-Phrygians, settled on Balkan peninsula. It took place in the XXIIIth or the XXIIth century BC. Scientists believe it was the time of linguistic unity of all Balkan peoples. Later they divided into two groups: Thraco-Illyrian and Thraco-Phrygian, the first spread to all Balkan mountains, Illyria, Pannonia, Dacia and parts of Italy, the second existed in South-East Balkans and partly in Asia Minor. Modern Albanian means everything that left after the first group, whether it is the direct successor of Illyrian language or just related.--Taulant23 18:21, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

thanks

My thanks to Edrus and whoever else cleaned up the article. It reads much better now.

PELLASGËT-SHQIPËTARË (The Albanian People) by Naim Frashëri

PELLASGËT-SHQIPËTARËT (The Albanian People)

Ishte një ditë Që pellasgjitë Posi një dritë Mbuluan dhenë Duall ng’ Asia Si mizëria Dhe me ania E hodhë denë. Pas pakë herë, Duke përzjerë Ca me të tjerë, Bënë elinët,-----(helenet-the greeks) Dhe duke ndarë Syresh një farë, Si ka të ngjarë, Bëri llatinët.----(latins) Edhe të tjerët E më të ndjerët, Të papërzjerët, (not mixed with other) Pellasgjinj mbenë Maqedhoninjtë E ilirinjtë E mollosinjtë,Gjith’ ata qenë. Dhe ata janë Prindërtë tanë, Pastaj na thanë Na shqipëtarë Mundim të themi Ne ata jemi, Atë gjak kemi, Si dhe shtyparë. { tiparin } Thot’ Herodoti, Në Tomor zoti-----------Tomorr mountain Shtëpi qëmoti Kishte Dhodhonë Eshtë m’e vjetër Ngaha çdo tjetër, Shumë më tepër, Kjo gjuha jonë. Ne kurdoherë Burra të ndjerë Edhe të vlerë Jemi treguar; Me grekërinë Dhe me Persinë, Me gjith’ Asinë Kemi lëftuar. Me Lekën vamë, ----{ Aleksandri i math } Muntmë Daranë,---------(Darios persian king) Datën i dhamë ---------{ frikën } Gjithë Asisë Burr’ u dëftyem, Të gjith’ i thyem, Përmbys e kthyem Fron’ e Persisë. Të tërë dhenë, Den’ e sterenë, Sa kombe qenë Në këmb i vumë Dhe mbretëruam Kudo që shkuam, Tekdo lëftuam, Vëndin e zumë. Me Pirron vamë Romës i ramë, Llatint’ i vramëE i tmeruam; Me Skënderbenë Tyrqve sa qenë U dhamë dhenë Dhe i dëbuam. Kush i goditi Posi petriti E i cfiliti Tyrqit, barbarët? Bota s’kuxonte Që t’u qëndronte, Po kush lëftonte? Ne shqipëtarët. Pastaj u ndruam, Se s’kupëtuam Dhe nuk e çquam Të mirën tënë Gjaknë për bot ë E derthmë kotë, Njeri ç’të thotë? Nuk ishte thënë! Mbajtmë Tyrqinë, Ngjallmë Greqinë, Ndihm’ Italinë. Po Shqipërinë? Pse s’u munduam? Për kë lëftuam? Neve ç’fituam? Ç’kemi taninë?

Published in “Albania” magazine in Brukselit, nr.4, 1897. --Taulant23 18:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Me maqedonesit jemi nje race dhe fiset greke , jane fise pellasge, disa nga ata qe ti i konsideron greke jane arvanitas qe shkruajne ne faqen tone.Dodona

Islamic Emirate of Albania

Islamic Emirate of Albania - I can find no evidence such a place ever existed? anyone? --Fredrick day 22:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It does not make sense at all. I never heard of this before. It does not exist. Piasoft (talk) 10:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Motto

Can you please stop changing the Motto of Albania today is "Workers of the world, unite" some other day it was "Shqiptaret te bashkur per nje shqiperi te bashkuar" etc stick to one please

(Unikkatil 11:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)).

religion

In all other related articles on Albania on wikipedia, we find that Mulim population is above 70% but here it is given 60%. Which one is true? The population according to the last census should also be given.-Salman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.122.17.41 (talk) 17:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

last census religion of albanians was albanian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.236.122.237 (talk) 23:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

45% of Albanians are Muslims (Sunni). 15% are orthodox christians. 10% are catholic christians. 5-10% are Bektashis. The rest 20% are atheists, protestants, Mormons, Jehova Witnesses, e.t.c.

Review

The Pelasgian section of the article is problematic since it lacks sources and contains poorly structured sentences.

1) "Stockbreeding people came from the east around the mid 3000s BC to the early 2000s BC." From the east where? Needs elaboration and sources.

2) "This population is believed to be the ancient Pelasgians, which have been mentioned frequently by ancient writers such as Homer, Herodotus, and Thucydides." Even though this sentence was sourced, the ancient sources themselves do not mention anything about "stockbreeding people coming from the the east around the mid 3000s to the early 2000s BC believed to be Pelasgians." And even if they did, it would be helpful for the writers of this article to provide specific quotes from the sources listed that could help verify the validity of the sentence.

3) "Ancient writers' references to the Pelasgians are confusing, however, with some stating that Pelasgians had spoken a "barbaric" or "non Hellenic" language, while other maintained that they were Greek-speaking." It is obvious that this sentence was taken from the Pelasgians article. Yet, the sentence is incorrect because despite the confusing ancient references, many ancient authors did recognize the Pelasgians as Greeks.

I hate quote-wars, but this has to be done in order to set the record straight.

• Dionysius of Halicarnassus - Afterwards some of the Pelasgians who inhabited Thessaly, as it is now called, being obliged to leave their country, settled among the Aborigines and jointly with them made war upon the Sicels. It is possible that the Aborigines received them partly in the hope of gaining their assistance, but I believe it was chiefly on account of their kinship; for the Pelasgians, too, were a Greek nation originally from the Peloponnesus.

• Herodotus - The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.

• Strabo - As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly...Again, Aeschylus, in his Suppliants, or else his Danaan Women, says that the race of the Pelasgi originated in that Argos which is round about Mycenae. And the Peloponnesus too, according to Ephorus, was called "Pelasgia."

• Ovid - Here, when a sacrifice had been prepared to Jove, according to the custom of their land, and when the ancient altar glowed with fire, the Greeks observed an azure colored snake crawling up in a plane tree near the place where they had just begun their sacrifice..."Rejoice Pelasgian men, for we shall conquer; Troy will fall; although the toil of war must long continue--so the nine birds equal nine long years of war." And while he prophesied, the serpent, coiled about the tree, was transformed to a stone, curled crooked as a snake.

Just because Herodotus called the Pelasgians "barbarians" does not immediately mean that they were "non-Greek." In all honesty, being a "barbarian" also meant being an "unsophisticated Greek."

4) "A theory dating back to the seventeenth century attempted to connect the pre-Indo-European Pelasgian language with Albanian." If such a theory existed, then who developed it? Sources please.

This section needs to be removed since there are no sources that would link the Pelasgians to Albania. I am sorry, but this has to be done for the betterment of the article. If anyone disagrees, then please provide sources instead of the usual edit-warring. Try to make an effort towards improving the article and implementing proper sources. Deucalionite 21:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The Pelasgian section is being vandalize so many times by some nationalist Greeks that its geting shorter and shorter.I thought we closed the Pelasgian war of edits.... --Taulant23 19:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Taulant23, but Deucalionite does stress some important points. Unfortunately, the Pelasgians section of the article does not have any references that would help verify its content. So I have to agree (as a neutral party of course) that the section must be removed since it lacks sources. On a sidenote, arguing that the Pelasgians section must remain because you are upset about the "vandalisms of some Greek nationalists" is not enough. You need to provide sourced content. I am going to revert the article back to Deucalionite's version. Elysonius 14:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Review II

The antiquities section needs sources. I will not remove it since I know that many archaeological excavations have taken place in Albania. Nevertheless, it is essential that sources be placed so that the content is verified.

1) "Archaeological research shows that the lands that are today inhabited by Albanians were first populated in the Paleolithic Age (Stone Age). The first areas settled were those with favourable climatic and geographic conditions. In Albania, the earliest settlements have been discovered in the Gajtan cavern (Shkodra), in Konispol, at Mount Dajti, and at Saranda." This is a good introduction. However, if archaeological research was conducted, then who conducted it and when?

2) "Fragments of Cyclopean structures, of the Cyclopean-Pelasgian period, were discovered at Kretsunitsa, Arinishta, and other sites in the district of Gjirokastra. The walls, partly Cyclopean, of an ancient city (perhaps Byllis) are visible at Gradishti on the picturesque Viosa River. Few traces remain of the once celebrated Dyrrhachium (today Durrës)." First, if fragments from Cyclopean-Pelasgian structures were uncovered, then who uncovered them and when? Sources please.

3) "Central and Northern Albania abound in unexplored remains of the Illyrian period, and many traces of the early Illyrian civilization still lie covered under the dust and ashes of nearly thirty centuries." This sentence is unnecessary. If remains from the Illyrian period have been uncovered, then archaeological data should be cited without hesitation.

4) "The rediscovered city of Butrint is probably more significant today than it was when Julius Caesar used it as a provisions depot for his troops during his campaigns in the 1st century BC. At that time, it was considered to be an unimportant outpost, overshadowed by the likes of Apollonia and Durrës." Who rediscovered the city of Butrint and when? Sources please.

As I have said before, this section will not be removed since many excavations have occurred in Albania. Moreover, the section does provide an adequate introduction to the overall article. Nevertheless, the content of the section needs to be sourced. Please take the time to improve this section. Deucalionite 21:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Los Angeles Times - Albania's ancient history surfaces: and there is more refs too.Thank you!--Taulant23 19:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

If you have sources, then why don't you place them in the Antiquities section? You do know how to place references in the article, right? If you have trouble putting sources on the article, then just list them here and I will be more than happy to help you. Elysonius 14:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

LOL I don't know how to put sources? lol Every time I put sources they get deleted by some nationalist Greeks,Pelasgian article was long and know is becoming shorter and shorter.Thank you though for ur help--Taulant23 18:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Albanians the same origin with ancient Greek

They are claims that put Albanians the same origin with ancient Greek which were actually pelasgian tribes [3][4].Dodona

Article clean-up complete!

I took some time to tweak the mechanics of this article, as well as ensure that the content was properly organized. Though this article still needs a lot of sourced content for some of its existing sections, it is currently on the right track towards improvement. In short, I cleaned up the article as much as possible and wish the best of luck to anyone who can further improve its content. Elysonius 03:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You spoke too soon. Taulant23 just reverted your edits. Deucalionite 13:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Going against Consensus

This article is going nowhere and I am afraid that there will be a potential revert-war between Taulant23 and Elysonius. I have already stated why the Pelasgians section of the article should be removed. Elysonius agreed with my assessment of the section. Of course, I perused through Elysonius's recent edits and found out that his contributions have been largely helpful towards improving the article.

Taulant23, you need to stop reverting the article since the burden of proof is on your shoulders. I already requested that you provide direct sources pertaining to the Pelasgians in Albania, and you have not provided anything thus far. Either provide sources so that the Pelasgians section may eventually return to the article, or continue revert-warring, which will force me to summon an administrator to end this altercation before it gets worse.

Just so you know, you are technically going against consensus Taulant23. Elysonius and I found the article in need of serious improvement and you have contributed nothing positive towards enhancing the quality of the article's content. So, please take the time to find decent sources before you decide to revert article versions that are actually more organized in contrast to the versions you support.

Please take the time to either speak with me or with Elysonius in overcoming this matter. Revert-warring and/or edit-warring will not accomplish anything. Deucalionite 13:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Pelasgians section (again)

Listen Taulant23, I have read the information you have placed in the Albania article pertaining to the Pelasgians. Unfortunately, the sources you have provided are all derived from the Pelasgians article. The remainder of the text is, as usual, not sourced. Also, your attacks and threats towards Deucalionite were absolutely unnecessary. The man has tried to reason with you and you go off insulting him when all he wants is to try and find ways to improve this article. By the way, you are going against our consensus regarding the reasons why the Pelasgians section must be removed. So stop playing games and get real. Elysonius 02:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that what Taulant23 has provided has not helped improve the Albania article. After scrutinizing his sources, I came to the conclusion that the majority of them are all taken out of the Pelasgians article. I also agree with you that the other two paragraphs he has included in the section have no sources whatsoever. Though I trust your assessment Elysonius to be based on sound judgment, I advise not deleting the section until I get a response from Taulant23. I am trying to reason with him one more time. If he continues to support the existence of the Pelasgians article on somewhat flimsy evidence, then I will have to take more drastic measures. Even though I am aware that Taulant23 has digressed from the discussions we had and has attacked me for being a "Greek nationalist," I am still going to try to reason with him so that we can finally work on the Antiquities section together and improve the article.

Taulant23 does make a point though. All he wants is to prove through the theories he has chosen that the Pelasgians existed in Albania. Though I commend him for his boldness, he is unaware of the fact that all the theories he has used as "sources" in the Pelasgians section are already mentioned in the Pelasgians article. The Pelasgians section just does not belong in the Albania article since there is nothing definitive that proves the existence of Pelasgians in Albania. And if there is, then it must be derived from direct sources and not from theories or come-and-go interpretations of evidence. I am giving him one last chance to help sort things out. Deucalionite 15:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I understand. I hope things work out between you and Taulant23. However, if Taulant23 continues being a disruptive user even after you speak with him, then I will be the one to automatically report him to an administrator. I think you spent enough time "reasoning" with him and I just feel that there is no pleasing Taulant23. If nothing works out between you and him, then I am afraid the Albania article will continue to be held back with the Pelasgians section containing weak arguments and even weaker evidence. Good luck with everything (you're probably going to need it). Elysonius 02:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

What?

I have a problem with the statement that 'there is no history of idiological anti-Semitism in Albania, Greece and Bulgaria'. Are you forgeting the thousands of Jewish families slaughtered in Thesaloniki during WWII, or the the deportation of Jews from Bulgaria at the beggining of WWII. I dont know about Albania, but giving that statement proves the exact opposite about the country. The only protectors the Jews has were the Ottomans, with them gone their only protection disappeared. (Honesty 06:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC))

If you have a problem with the statement Honesty, then provide some definitive sources and make some changes. Of course, discuss about your intentions before you do anything. Welcome aboard. Deucalionite 14:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

That's a good one.--Taulant23 22:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

"deportation of Jews from Bulgaria at the beggining of WWII" - what Bulgaria are you talking about, Bulgaria on the Moon or in the parallel universe ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.63.33.198 (talk) 08:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Review III (Taulant23's extra edits on the Pelasgians)

Upon Taulant23's request, I will do more than just "prove that there are no links between the Pelasgian language and the Albanian language." In fact, I am going to do something better. I am going to review Taulant23's edits to the Pelasgians section like any Wikipedian would do when dealing with "controversial" issues.

1) Many different opinions have been given when it comes to their ethnic make up. A more concrete evidence of the Illyrian-Pelasgian origin of the Albanians is supplied by the study of the Albanian language. Notwithstanding certain points of resemblance in structure and phonetics, the Albanian language is entirely distinct from the tongues spoken by the neighboring natonalities.This language is particularly interesting as the only surviving representative of the so-called Thraco-Illyrian group of languages, which formed the primitive speech of the inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula.

• Unfortunately, this paragraph has no sources. Therefore, it is difficult to assess the "many different opinions" about the ethnic make-up of the Pelasgians. This paragraph has to go.

2) The French author Zacharie Mayani (1899 – ) put forth a thesis that the Etruscan language had links to the Albanian language.

• This sentence talks about the Etruscans and not the Pelasgians. Even though there are assertions that Etruscan and Pelasgian are similar, to make the indirect argument that Pelasgian is linked to Etruscan, which in turn is linked to Albanian is insufficient. Direct evidence is necessary in this case. However, the overall theory presented by Zacharie Mayani has already been mentioned in the Pelasgians article.

• Source: Answers.com - Pelasgians (unacceptable since the information is already derived from Wikipedia).

3) This thesis places the Albanian language outside the group of Indo-European languages sharing one branch with Etruscans.

• Again, this sentence talks about the linguistic correlations between Albanian and Etruscan not Albanian and Pelasgian. This sentence is also found in the Pelasgians article.

• Source: Nermin Vlora Falaschi. L'Etrusco lingua viva Roma: Bardi, 1989 (unacceptable since the external link does not provide any verifiable content; though the source does exist, full citations entailing quotes or pages are necessary).

4) Nermin Vlora Falaschi published a translation of the Lemnos stele on this basis, with the help of Arvanite Albanian. The theory is supported by Falaschi, Catapano, Marchiano, Mathieu Aref, Faverial, D'Angely, Kolias, and Cabej support this point of view.

• This sentence talks about the Lemnos stele. Whether the Lemnos stele was Pelasgian or not is subject to debate. However, the theory is present in the Pelasgians article. Also, many of the authors referred to in this sentence who, supposedly, support the translation of the Lemnos stele with the help of Arvanitic are not accompanied by any sources or references.

• Source: Mathieu Aref. Albanie ou l'incroyable odyssée d'un peuple préhellénique (2003) (unfortunately, the external link is useless since it does not provide any verifiable content whatsoever; even though the book does exist, full citations entailing page numbers and/or quotes are necessary).

• Source - Aristeidē P. Kollia. "Arvanites kai hē katagōgē tōn Hellēnōn : historikē, laographikē, politistikē, glōssologikē episkopisē , Athens : [A.P. Kollias], 1985, [i.e. 1986] (this is a good source, but proper citations are needed; also, connections between the Arvanites and the Pelasgians are discussed at the Arvanites article).

• Source: Pelasgians and others (an external link with content, but it shows all theories pertaining to the Pelasgians and not just the theories supporting a Pelasgian-Albanian connection; cherry-picking theories from external links is unnecessary).

5) From the 17th century, specifically from the Albanian Rilindja (Rebirth), the theory that the Pelasgian language is connected with Albanian is dominant among Albanian and foreign researchers.

• Really? Who are these Albanian and foreign researchers? This sentence has no sources.

6) There is, however, a very striking feature in this whole matter: that the Albanian language affords the only available means for a rational explanation of the meaning of the names of the ancient Greek gods as well as the rest of the mythological creations, so as exactly to correspond with the characteristics attributed to these deities by the men of those times. The explanations are so convincing as to confirm the opinion that the ancient Greek mythology had been borrowed, in its entirety, from the Illyrian-Pelasgians. As it was mentioned before, Zeus survives as "Zot" in the Albanian language. The invocation of his name is the common form of oath among the modern Albanians. Athena (the Latin Minerva), the goddess of wisdom as expressed in speech, would evidently owe its derivation to the Albanian "E Thëna," which simply means "speech." Thetis, the goddess of waters and seas, would seem to be but Albanian "Det" which means "sea." It would be interesting to note that the word "Ulysses," whether in its Latin or Greek form "Odysseus," means "traveler" in the Albanian language, according as the word "udhë," which stands for "route" and "travel," is written with "d" or "l," both forms being in use in Albania.

• This entire paragraph is mostly based on etymological original research. Plenty of other modern authors have provided different etymologies relating modern or ancient languages with Pelasgian.

• Source: Materials for the study of the Etruscan language, Volume I (this external link does not provide any verifiable content and if it somehow does, then it is the responsibility of the individual who cited this "source" to provide proper citations).

7) Such examples may be supplied ad libitum. No such facility is, however, afforded by the ancient Greek language, unless the explanation be forced and distorted one but in many instances even such forced and distorted one is not available at all. It is estimated that of the actual stock of the Albanian language, more than one third is of undisputed Ilyrian origin, and the rest are Ilyrian-Pelasgian, ancient Greek and Latin, with a small admixture of Slavic, Italian (dating from the Venetian occupation of the seaboard) and some Celtic words, too. The most active supporter of this theory was Austrian linguist Hahn who attempted to connect the pre-Indo-European Pelasgian language with Albanian. Today, however, Albanian is universally classified as an Indo-European language by linguists. See Origin of the Albanians for a discussion of the theories surrounding the origin of the Albanians and the Albanian language.

• This entire paragraph has zero sources. I am sorry to say, but this too sounds like original research. As for the Austrian linguist Hahn, proper sources and citations are necessary to validate any aspect of this paragraph.

I do not expect anyone to re-insert the text I just reviewed into the Albania article. This review is meant to prove conclusively that the Pelasgians section does not belong at all in the Albania article. Much of the content I have reviewed was either unsourced, based on unreliable sources, or based on a handful of reliable sources without verifiable citations.

This review is not in any way, shape, or form meant to hinder Taulant23 from making contributions to Wikipedia pertaining to any connections he finds between the Albanians and the Pelasgians. However, as I have explained to him multiple times, the Pelasgians section of the Albania article needs to be removed since the Pelasgians article already has theories that acknowledge Taulant23's beliefs and ideas.

The Albania article is strictly about Albania. If there is to be a section about the Pelasgians in the article, then it is necessary for Taulant23 to provide solid and direct evidence to support his claims. Etymological and linguistic theories are interesting, but are not definitive forms of proof that can help support a Pelasgian-Albanian connection. Since many other linguists and etymologists have provided different interpretations of the linguistic identity of Pelasgian, it is difficult to allow the Pelasgians section to remain in the Albania article regardless if it has been there for a long time.

According to the modern theories section of Wikipedia's Pelasgians article, academics from Georgia, Turkey, Bulgaria, etc. all provided different perspectives pertaining to the linguistic identity of the Pelasgians. However, this is does not provide enough proof for each country that claims to be descended from the Pelasgians to have a Pelasgians section. Besides, it is difficult to assume that a linguistic identity can reveal the ethnic or cultural identity of the Pelasgians. The best direct evidence available pertaining to the identity of the Pelasgians is found within the works of the ancient Greek and Roman authors. This much has also been mentioned in the Pelasgians article, which has provided a wide and adequate treatment of the subject matter.

Therefore, in all honesty, the Pelasgians section in the Albania article must be removed. Anyone who disagrees needs to provide sources, citations, and strong arguments in order for things to change. Wikipedia wants people to be bold in expressing ideas, but that does not mean that those ideas will not be put to the test.

As I have said before, Taulant23 should decide to remove the Pelasgians section in the Albania article and contribute his research in the Antiquities section. Deucalionite 15:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Antiquity

needs to be fixed,needs more sentences so it wont' have a big space between this Section and Illyria. The page looks bad, its a big mess.--Taulant23 17:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. After your break, bring out your archaeological sources and let see what we can do to improve the section. Don't be shy in asking help from other users. I'm sure that they would be happy to help you. Deucalionite 18:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Albanian-Illyrians, with the Pelasgians being their ancestors

Illyrians, with the Pelasgians being their ancestors.I have found more sources not only from the lang point of view but even tradition etc.Very interesting--Taulant23 23:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Religion???

Every other article on this site has percentages of how many people in the country are whichever religion.,.,except this page. Why is that? All there is is an over-long, wish washy narrative on how tolerant everyone is in Albania. Why are there no figure and percents on who belongs to which religion? Reaper7 14:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Because there are no figures better than wild-ass guesses. Counting is difficult, since one can find Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, and atheists within one immediate family. The 2001 census didn't even bother to ask. 71.248.115.187 22:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

who cares, if religion was important for us, then we would have created it in our country, not in middle east, and arabia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.236.122.237 (talk) 23:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Illyrians in Slovenia?

the article says that Illyrians lived in the territory of what is now slovenia when the slavs arrived in the area. now as much as i remember from school about the history of slovenia and living in slovenia for the bulk of my life, this territory was inhabited by Celts, Romans and romanised Celts and that the Langobards passed the area before the proto-slovenians settled. 89.142.28.199 12:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Albanian q

According to two academic sources: World's Writing Systems and the Oxford Albanian-English dictionary, Albanian q is IPA [c], the voiceless palatal stop. Azalea pomp 06:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Redundant paragraph in 'Holocaust' section

The second paragraph in the Holocaust section largely repeats what was said in the first paragraph. The two paragraphs should be merged or one of them eliminated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Star-lists (talk • contribs) 15:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The writing in this section is also rather poor- especially in the second paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.216.181 (talk) 04:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic minorities = diplomatic personnel?

According to the "Demographics" section: Minorities include Greeks, Aromanians,Torbesh, Gorani, Macedonian Slavs, Roma, Montenegrins, Bulgarians, Balkan Egyptians and Jews, most of them, members of the personnel of their respective embassies in Albania. Is this a joke? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decx (talk • contribs) 19:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The name Albania is an exonym, coming from the Latin root for "white" (alb-). No connection between Albanians and Illyrians

I see that nationalists have once again run wild over this article (no prizes for guessing who). It is filled with rambling, ungrammatical, non-factual nationalist conjectures that are their trademark. Especially egregious is how sentences purporting to relate Albanians to Illyrians have been added throughout the article, to the point where they are redundant and contradictory. It seems that someone OBSESSED with linking Albanians to Illyrians (for which there zero conrete evidence) has been tampering with the article. There is no link between Albanians and Illyrians, except in a strictly geographical sense. Linguistic evidence indicates that Albanian most likely derives from Dacian, and not Illyrian. As for the name Albania, it is an exonym that derives from the Latin root for white (alb-) and has nothing to do with some mythical Illyrian tribe. If Albanians were so "Albanian" or "Illyrian", why do they call themselves Shqiptare? --71.198.103.119 (talk) 00:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

the fact that "Albanian" is an exonym has nothing to do with the origin questions. Of course this article (like most Balkans ethnicity topics) has to be closely watched for nationalist nonsense, but the "Illyrian hypothesis" isn't all that exciting or far-fetched. The unexcited fact of the matter is that Albanians quite plausibly continue an Illyrian substrate, among others, but that there is simply no historical evidence to either prove or disprove this, so that the debate is futile and without substance. dab (𒁳) 11:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

ok, so the "Etymology" was fanciful and unreferenced. I've replaced it by the information from OED. dab (𒁳) 11:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Reads much better now, and is much more NPOV. Thank you, Dbachmann! This page has been repeatedly targeted by nationalists, and your efforts are much appreciated. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC) I think u are a nationalist,I guess i need to check ur ip adress, look what Greek propaganda u say : Etymology In Medieval Greek, the name is Albania besides variants Albaētia, Arbanētia. Why some of u Greeks give Ellada a bad name! It's almost 08 people get a life.The real Greeks know who are Albanians and have respect for them.Stop the vandalism here in wikipedia, it wont change the history, just ur time!Thank you--Taulant23 (talk) 05:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC) GO GET AN EDUCATION,GO IN BARNES AND READ SOME BOOKS ABOUT ALBANIA Albanians are linked to Illyrians, many research and books are out there, if u like it or not. --Taulant23 (talk) 05:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Calm down buddy, your hysterical reaction only makes you look pathetic and your bad english makes me laugh. You'll never convince anyone with your hysterical, ungrammatical rants and your ridiculous pseudo-science. And watch your mouth unless you want to get banned. If you keep it up, I will refer you to an administrator. --Tsourkpk (talk) 05:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC) That's true I am irritated but not mad,I can't do this all day,I get paid to be on my PC,how come u still vandalize all the Albanian related articles.I can see all ur edits and from my stats here, u are abuzing Wikipedia for ur own.I don't know what some Albanians have done to u or to your family, but not all are the same right? I have tried so many times to reason with u,months now, and nothing has changed. How would u will feel if I go in Greek pages and vandalize them? --Taulant23 (talk) 06:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Tried to reason with me? All you do is insult me. And anyone who disagrees with you, like Kekrops and Deucalionite. They were VERY patient with you, but now you're pushing it. You even had the nerve to call Deucalionite a Nazi (and he was very nice to you). You were very lucky not to get banned that time. What I'm doing is not vandalism. You accuse everyone who disagrees with you of vandalism. That only shows intellectual weakness and cowardice. Just keep it up and see what happens --Tsourkpk (talk) 06:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

That's it! Talking to you is a complete waste of time. I will let the administrators handle this. --Tsourkpk (talk) 06:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Please let them handle it,show them how you delete references,in Albanian articles you have put Greek Nationalist propaganda,u have erased so many links,tell them about Greek propaganda in Encyclopedia,tell them about the communication between greek editors "Αλλαξα τους χαρτες στο σωστο με μια μικρη επεξηγηση.Οι αλβανοι εχουν φαει πολυ προπαγναδα και δεν ξερουν τι τους γινεται" I change the maps …..Albanians they do not know what we do to them ", plz show them.You can delete and revert here in Wikipedia,u gave this site a bad name! Thank you!--Taulant23 (talk) 06:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

A better translation would be "the Albanians have been fed too much propaganda and have no idea what's going on". But you knew that already. 3rdAlcove (talk) 07:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Well I wasn't raised in Albania and never had "the feeding of Albanian propaganda",just reading books at school,maybe sometimes a search @ Barnes-Nobile.--Taulant23 (talk) 07:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Taulant23, if you want to discuss the question of the etymology of Albania, can you try to behave a little more civilized? Otherwise, people will simply refuse to interact with you, and I can't blame them. I suppose it is possible to suggest that the Alb- has an Illyrian origin. I am sure some linguist or other has suggested this somewhere. If you can give us a valid reference, we can mention the hypothesis. As it stands, based on OED, we can only say the name first appears in the medieval period. Its ultimate origins are literally anyone's guess, but we will only report on guesses that were published academically. dab (𒁳) 10:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Well thank u for helping,however that may be, it is generally recognized today that the Albanians are the most ancient race in southesatern Europe. All indications point to the fact that they are descendants of the earliest Aryan immigrants who were represented in historical times by the kindred Illyrians, Macedonians and Epirots. Thank you!--Taulant23 (talk) 22:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

There he goes again. --Tsourkpk (talk) 22:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Recognised by whom? Albanian nationalists? Where is the evidence for your claim that "the Albanians are the most ancient race in southesatern [sic] Europe", especially considering the fact that the Albanian language has only been attested since the fifteenth century AD, later than any other language of the region? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 03:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey there, Kekrops. You're still taking this guy seriously? I stopped doing so long ago. It's pointless to engage him, he just won't listen to reason. Unless you want to get a good laugh, that is. In that case I totally understand. --Tsourkpk (talk) 04:52, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
P.S. See also the Pelasgians talk page, there's some good material there too.

WP:DFTT at this point. Taulant23 may also be in for a warning to stop blanking content on the Albania (toponym) page. dab (𒁳) 11:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

RACIST "CULT OF GREECE" etc

Here again, a bunch of Greeks writing the history of Albania! Pathetic, I guess there is something that you Greeks hide, because I have not found any reason for your action.

1st Pelasgian-Albanian link deleted 2nd Illyrian-Albanian connection all ref deleted 3rd Epirus turn to be Greek 4th Albanian athletics have Greek blood, what is next, for your ridiculous war of Hellenizing everything. --Taulant23 (talk) 20:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no evidence supporting Albanian claims and they have been recognised by the international scientific community to be the product of an intensive propaganda machine of nationalist albanians that carried on since the end of the communist regime that supported it.Since ancient texts and modern scientists have rejected albanian claims what do you think is going on? Illyrians aren't proven to be albanians,Epirus of course was hellenic and so on.Are you implying that there is a world conspiracy against albania?You have to accept reality.Megistias (talk) 20:31, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

You wish Greek, u wish,so how can u explain that Albanians are the only people who use Illyrian names,"ex:mine Taulant". I have no doubt in my mind Albanians are the direct descendents of the ancient Illyrians.Illyria "the free people" does not mean nothing in Greek, second the link with the pelasgian language is very strong,and most of the pelasgian words- they are simply just written the same as the albanian language

e.g

pelasgian ---------Albanian--------English

SIF = FIS----------FIS------------Kinsman

LENE=LENE----------LENE----------Leave him

I will bring few examples to understand relation between greek and albanian language which have many connection with the pelasgian language.

1. Where is my room?

Albanian tosk

Ku është dhoma ime?

Albanian Gheg

Ku o(a) oda e (e)mi-(or eme)

Arvanitian language(peloponesian)

kue ëni oda eme

2. New greek, which derives from k;oine(common language) >attic-ionic πού είναι το δωμάτιό μου pu ine to dhomatio mu

3.Tsakonian which is beleived to be DORIC Κιά έννι ο όντα μι; Ciá éñi o óda mi? / cɑ ˈɛˌɲi ɔ ˈɔˌdɑ mi/ ka ëni o oda mi

Its very interesting

dhoma(tosk)=δωμάτιό(greek>attic-ionic)

oda(gheg)=oda(tskonian>doric)

imi, ime, e ime, e eme, e mia(tosk+gheg)=μου, μι(ionic+doric)

Ku(alb)~pu(greek)~ka(tsakonian)

ëni(arvan)=έννι(tsakonian)

Also if you translate the word KOINE:

Koine Greek (kini) (Κοινὴ Ἑλληνική, "common Greek"

So Koine=common

What about tsakonian?

Tsakonian is pronounced "zakoni" in albanian language and "Tsakonian language" means "gjuhe zakoni" or "gjuhe e tradites" or "gjuhe e te parëve" which can be translated in english "the language of tradition", "the language of our (oldest) ancestors"

I strongly beleive the Tsaconian(Doric) is a gheg(illyrian) dialect which derives from numerous idioms spoken in Peloponessus from very ancient times .

So HYPERBOREAN. What does it means?

Pindar, Tenth Pythian Ode: The Greeks thought that Boreas, the North Wind, So Pindar was right " beyond the BOREAs"=(s)iper borës=vendet pertej te ftohtit te veriut. the Greeks came up with the idea that north countries being cold was due to the cold breath of Boreas, the North Wind. Therefore, should one be able to get beyond him (Hyperborea literally means "beyond Boreas")

BORE(alb)=snow(which means cold and white)

This word is the root of the ARBERIA=ARBOREA=AR(gold)+BORE(snow~white) bore>bordhe>bardhe=white These are the original pelasgian:ARBERIANS

Sorry to say,don't take me wrong on this but I have visit Greece and Albanian so many times,Its another story when you look Albanian's faces . They show pure europian descent.I belive the race of pure epiriotic-pelasgian is alive in these people and yes I do think there is a connection between Greeks and Albanians,maybe the Dorians link,but who started the hate between them I don't know yet,maybe love-hate,brothers crap.Happy Thanks people--Taulant23 (talk) 20:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Black Athena examines Cornell Professor Martin Bernal's iconoclastic study of the African origins of Greek civilization and the explosive academic debate it provoked.<a href="http://www.brazzlogin.com/">Brazzers Account</a> This film offers a balanced, scholarly introduction to the disputes surrounding multiculturalism, "political correctness" and Afrocentric curricula sweeping college campuses today. In his book Black Athena, Prof. Bernal convincingly indicts 19th-century scholars for constructing a RACIST "CULT OF GREECE" based upon a purely Aryan origin for Western culture. He accuses these classicists of suppressing the numerous connections between African and Near Eastern cultures and early Greek myth and art. go and watch http://youtube.com/watch?v=o4maNtzhL9Q&feature=PlayList&p=98FF3789CEB83593&index=0 --Taulant23 (talk) 21:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

---

You dont answer and you offer pseudoscience once again and irrelevant theories.You are not discussing .Megistias (talk) 21:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:DFTT. Unless you want to get a good laugh, that is. --Tsourkpk (talk) 23:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

As for Kapllan Resuli (he turned his surname when he migrated into Resulovic) you shoud know the fact that he is living in Serbia and has changed his name in Serbian. His theories are a copy-paste of Serb propaganda. Human Genome Project??? What is he talking about??? None has done that testing over Albanians. Where did he find those data??? As for the names of the cities You should know that they change in every invasion. Kruja for example was called Ak-Hisar (white castle in Turkish) in 16th century. If you were to go on toponims, you should go on the main rivers or ancient cities for example Drin, Vjosa, Shkumbin, Valona, Durrës, Shkoder. How come these main cities and rivers (and a lot of others toponims) were not in Slavic? Even in his words Resulovic proves wrong because the Namer Korca comes from Korisa and it's not slavic also Këlcyra comes from Clissura and it's not slavic, Voskopoja comes from Moskopoli, and it's not slavic. and I can continue like this for hours abot his words because he is not a serious scientist. Stop refereing to him, he is just a poor man full of hatred towards once his own country. Now he is (Serb or Bosnian:)) Resulovic who doesn't know his own identity. Common guys, be serious please. Best regards. Aigest (talk) 09:06, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

In reality, Albanians and Greeks are the only pure,not Slavic people in Balkan.For that I respect both of these people!! --Taulant23 (talk) 09:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The fact remains that albanian nationalism and adherence to it is the only thing that creates the dogma "we albanians are pelasgians thus alla ancient greeks were albanians" and nothing more.Its not believed out of albanian circles and Historical conventions in Europe and USA always reject suchy theories.Megistias (talk) 10:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

What kind of Historical Conventions? Can you give details over them? All I know about conventions regarding this history are I-rst Congress of Illyrian Studies held in Tirana (Albania) in 1972 and II-nd Congress of Illyrian Studies held also in Tirana (Albania) in 1986. And there were a majority of international historians in both of them. For their conclusions you can check it out by yourself. All I can give is a list of participants. Best regards. Aigest (talk) 11:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

1972?1986? that's too old and you cant be serious...You are merely offering pseudoscience again and simply rejecting ancients and modern scientists that dont fit current dogma of Pelasgian-Albanians and the rest of Ancient Greek history.Preseverence is not evidence nor will it ever become one.Also Illyrians came to the area from haalstat at 1000-1300 bc and found the Greeks who were already there since 2000 bc at least.Pelasgians are in a way early Aegean cultures and have nothing to do with Illyrians who came millenia later.Science moves on and so should youMegistias (talk) 11:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Prehistoric GReece Margalit Finkelberg(Greeks and Pre-Greeks, Gambridge, edition 2007).

Prehistoric Greece 2000 BC

ISBN-13: 9780521852166 | ISBN-10: 0521852161)

LAtest edition from Cambridge.Megistias (talk) 11:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

- I would be very happy if you provide me a list of these new scientists and their Conventions. After I read their conclusions comparing to other sources, I will give you my opinion. Books like this above I can find a lot in libraries, but they are personal opinions. But how can you prejudice what has been said in these conventions without even knowing what has been said in the first place. If 1972 and 1986 look pretty old to you then you must eliminate all prior info and then you will remain with nothing in your hands because the main archeological findings and historical and linguistic studies about Illyrians have been made during the end of 19th century and through 20th until 1990, the time where states in Balkan were created and they had the resources and a certain political stability. All I am talking here is about serious people discussing serious things, not like that one Kaplan Resulovic you were referring before. So please bring me your sources and the new :) findings than we will talk. Best regards. Aigest (talk) 11:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

You just reject anything you dont like.This is just trolling.The above sources i provided and provide are valid.Not liking them means nothing.Megistias (talk) 11:36, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not rejecting anything. You have mentioned Conventions (look your own writings above:)) and I said to you the only conventions I know about Illyrians and if you want a list of presentatives. The reason for that is that in a Convention you have the possibility to confront your ideas and you can reach a logical result, not just like the books published where there is just a personal opinion of a person (no prejudice though:)). That's why I am still waiting for these Conventions you have mentioned and their participants. Thank you in advance. Best regards. Aigest (talk) 12:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I have provided secondary sources as wikipedia dictates and of recent works such as Prehistoric GReece Margalit Finkelberg(Greeks and Pre-Greeks, Gambridge, edition 2007).

Prehistoric Greece 2000 BC

ISBN-13: 9780521852166 | ISBN-10: 0521852161).I am waiting to see how ancient writers and modern scientists will be proven false by albanian natiolistic dogma..Megistias (talk) 12:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

And I am talking here about conventions and they are not too old (unless you have borned later:)), the last one 20 years ago. If you can't make the difference between a Convention and a book, hey it's not my fault. But I can assure you that there is a huge difference especially on the results. Still waiting for references to "your" last conventions that you mentioned before. Thank you in advance and best regards. Aigest (talk) 12:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The book above is a secondary source and wikipedia approves them.The "book" and history books just so you know quotes and uses papers from conventions.This is how history books are written.Are you going to provoke me further?Megistias (talk) 12:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

For example Resulovic was refering to Voskopje as a slavic name that was found by albanians, while Voskopoje was founded in the second half of 15th century by people, especially artist who left Costantinople in 1453 and they founded there an academy. Later in 16th, 17th and 18th century this Academy was very famous, ex. a little bit unclear here because doesn't tell the creation but the existence [5]. Can you see now the difference between a book and the Convention. Confrontations (not armed:)) of different ideas my friend will take you to the truth. I know that it is approved as a book but i think that a Convention has a major authority (see example above) Aigest (talk) 12:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia has rules.Abide by them.Books quote conventions and i have provided you with the latest.Prehistoric GReece Margalit Finkelberg(Greeks and Pre-Greeks, Gambridge, edition 2007).

Prehistoric Greece 2000 BC

ISBN-13: 9780521852166 | ISBN-10: 0521852161Megistias (talk) 12:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Then you have to give me the references of these conventions in this book. What are they saying? Also I might add that the book you are sourcing is about Greece, while here we are talking about Albania and presumbly Illyrians (the Conventions had the Illyrian topic:)). And by the way Resulovic is not an academic, he is self-declared as such. You have to earn your titles othervise we are all academics. If you please can provide me the place and the date of his graduation. Thank you in advance and best regards. Aigest (talk) 12:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

TRollMegistias (talk) 13:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Look friend, I am just asking from you references. I give you my references and you give me yours then we will confront the variations. You were the person who mentioned conventions and I agree with you on their importance. If there had been only two of them (but a lot of historians) it's not my problem:). You still had to show me the references of these conventions in that book, if it has not, I will understand, maybe because it speaks about Greece and not Illyria. For your other reference (Resulovic) I was clear before (read above), otherwise I can use my friend that is sitting here close to me as a source and yes he really has published something and if he drinks will think that he is academic (It was a joke though:)). No regrets and still waiting. Best regards Aigest (talk) 13:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC) And by the way, why you DO NOT USE the books written about Albanian history in order to partecipate in the writings of Albanian history on Wikipedia? You use only one book as a reference and furthermore this book is about Greece?! Don't you think that one source is not good enough? There are plenty of books about Albanian history in English. My be we can talk after you have read them. Best regards. Aigest (talk) 13:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

You are a troll and a flamer.You have discretided noone other than your self.Megistias (talk) 14:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you are overeacting. I didn't attacked you personally. I only "checked out:)" your references. Nothing personal, we are just talking about history here, we are not splitting a rich fortune:). But since you have come to the above mentioned words, I can assume that you have no further arguments. Ok it's not your fault (surely it's not mine:)), none has born "Iluminated", that't why I suggested you to read more books. May be with the time you will appreciate it. Thank you for your time and always best regards;) Aigest (talk) 15:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Aigest, If you want to establish a link between Albanians and Illyrians, then it it YOU who needs to provide sources. The burden of proof lies with you, not with anyone else. We simply can't "assume" an Albanian-Illyrian link, and then have to find sources to DISPROVE it. That is not how science works. Linguistic evidence points to the existence of a minimal Illyrian substratum in Albanian but nothing more. Rather, it seems that the Albanian language originated in an area where Romanian was spoken nearby, as it shares many commonoalities with Romanian. See the Origin of Albanians article for more info why the Albanian-Illyrian is so weak. Personally, I think your sources are pseudo-scientific, and that is why you are trying to shift the burden of proof on Megisitias. No one's buying it though. --Tsourkpk (talk) 23:41, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

So what wore Illyrians than? Greeks?

that’s pathetic! Why the Greek philosophers didn’t call Illyrians Greeks? Albannoi,Parthini=white people in Albania, Arbër.. The original Albanians were Old Europeans called Illyrians who had settled large parts of the Balkans centuries prior to the Indo-European invasions. These Old Europeans established a quiet Neolithic civilization in the region, interrupted only by the settlement of Indo-European Greek colonies along the coast which made their appearance during the 6th Century BC.

With the dissolution of the people of Classical Greece, the Grecian colonies in Albania also went into decline. By the end of the 3rd Century BC, the Grecian influence had all but disappeared, and their descendants, who had mixed with the original Old European population, then established a number of independent kingdoms which lasted well into the 2nd Century AD. During the Middle Ages Albanian cities expanded and commerce flourished. Education, art and culture grew, and although the Illyrian language survived, Greek and Latin became the official languages. 'That the modern Albanians are at least 70 % Illyrian that is been proven in so many research, books ,articles etc etc, only the Greeks and the Slavs do not accepted and most of us know whY.

The Pelasgian case need more research!that's true

'I just finished reading march of titans,a history of the white race Chapter 36 : Turmoil In The Balkans -Romania, Bulgaria, Albania and Greece Part Three - Albania The Illyrian link is getting old and been proven so many times,only the ignorants and nationalistic propaganda will never accepted --Taulant23 (talk) 07:55, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

---

The white history you use above is a racist unacceptable nazi theoryMegistias (talk) 12:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I want to know from Tsourkpk which are my pseudo-scientific sources, because I can't remember them. Please o please names and reasons. Regards. Aigest (talk) 07:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.) Megistias (talk) 12:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Part of Illyrian names have always been through Albanian population before the communist rule. Names like Bato in Valona region, Dasius-(Dash) especially in catholic areas of the north Albania and Plator in Korça region. You can check it yourself in registrations of population, first by the turks and later by the others. Regards Aigest (talk) 07:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

You are asking me to take your word for it since the above cant be sourced(registrations of population)?I wont.Fact remains that communists added name lists with Illyrian names.Show me the primary source as to know it is not something concocted recently.And the fact that communism added names to befit its nationalistic aspirations is factual.They filled you with names to alter the religious and historical character you had. The fact that names were added means so you understand it that all and any names you have the claim to be illyrian today don't matter today when research is done unless a name as such has been recorded in the past and accepted widely as of Illyrian origin.Just because it sounds like one means nothing.A modern linguist is required and will be the judge of that.And even if you have any illyrian element remaining it was totally ruined its chances to be properly researched and any reliably established.Regarding names. Megistias (talk) 12:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC) The problem is that the sources are translated in Albanian language and even if I cite them which of course I will do as soon as possible, I don't know if you will take them for granted. Anyway, I wouldn't base my opinion of the descendance of a population over the names, since the religions have heavily influenced them. For example look at the names of the population of Greece, what is the percentage of religion's influenced names? Does it mean that the population itself is Hebrew?Or it's roman? What about the names of the Moslem bosnians? Does it mean that they are Arabs? Or they are converted Slavs? Have a look at the list of Greek Prime ministers, a third of them is called Konstantinos a name which derives from Constant (Latin). Does it mean the were Latins or catholics? When you do researches over the name, it is more logical to go after the surnames and even from them you will not find a 100% surety, because even them sometimes change (for ex. from the name of the father, the most notable in Albanian history is that of the descendants of Skanderbeg, which still use his military nickname as a surname). Under these circumstance is very difficult to find the remaining of the Illyrian names, especially considering the remaining territory and the abundance of the religions (three) between Albanians. Although the toponimes of the Illyrians such as rivers and main cities were and are still being used in Albania. Regards Aigest (talk) 13:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

So the fact that illyrian names were added is a fact.On the Greeks we can talk in the Greeks page no problem.This small part we discuss now being "Illyrian name adding" and it is established.Again i would quote this as being appropriate"Aigest, If you want to establish a link between Albanians and Illyrians, then it it YOU who needs to provide sources. The burden of proof lies with you, not with anyone else. We simply can't "assume" an Albanian-Illyrian link, and then have to find sources to DISPROVE it. That is not how science works. Linguistic evidence points to the existence of a minimal Illyrian substratum in Albanian-and subtract artificial names(my addition)- but nothing more. Rather, it seems that the Albanian language originated in an area where Romanian was spoken nearby, as it shares many commonoalities with Romanian. See the Origin of Albanians article for more info why the Albanian-Illyrian is so weak. Personally, I think your sources are pseudo-scientific, and that is why you are trying to shift the burden of proof on Megisitias. No one's buying it though." The articles on albania and illyrians related history should all mention that names were constructed and added.Megistias (talk) 14:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Why Greeks do not use Illyrian names than? That will be so funny!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.144.41.133 (talk) 19:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC) Aigest (talk) 08:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

You didn't understand what I said, names like Dash, Plator, Bato and Bardhyl for ex have existed before the communist regime, but their spread was very low. The reasons of this are to be searched through many factors, like Roman invasion, Barbaric invasion, Slavic invasion, Byzantine rule, Norman invasion, Turkish invasion and most of all three different religions in Albanian territory, Catholic, Orthodox and Moslem (Bektashi and Sunni) and we are speaking for all of this staff in a small territory. Also you have to remember that the absence of a written language and of the people educated in that language was another big factor. If you can not understand this, well it's not my problem. And by the way that article over the Albanian language is very poor in general and in details and it's wrongfully solved (see EB2007 for example) and will be changed very soon. Regards. Aigest (talk) 09:18, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

---

Its ok i understood it when you wrote it.The problem i point out is the adding of artificial names.Even if we prove that the names you mentioned existed centuries before artificial name adding they must be proven to be Illyrian which of course they may truly be.The name argument however is weakened and its elements reduced from the artificial name adding.Still we don't know if Albanians are illyrians(and if they are they are not Greeks[epirotes,macedons]Pelasgians or thracians).The name adding must be added in every article to clarify this.Megistias (talk) 11:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree with you about that artifical name adding during communist regime. However it should be noted that such names has been in use before (for ex. Bardh-Bardhyl-Bardyllis has been in common use among Albanians see ... [6] ). But, if a note about that name adding has to be inserted in the story, than it should be mentioned also the above mentioned fact and the other fact that the Albanians are the only country in the Ballkans who still use these names today. Regards Aigest (talk) 15:20, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Of course but we need to properly source the non-artificial names.Megistias (talk) 15:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC) The site above isnt a source for the illyric origin of the name.Its not Bardyllis and it could be latin most likely [7] bardocucullus -i m. [a Gallic overcoat]. bardus -a -um [stupid , slow, dull].Megistias (talk) 15:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The name Bardhyl- (White star) in english has been scientifically and generally approved look [8]. The reference you are bringing is totally wrong because

First there was not such a person like bardocucullus???!!!in sources it was Bardyllis.

Secondly the name was mentioned before by ancient Greek sources look [9]and we are talking about 390 B.C. when the Rome was just a small city and was sacked by Gauls. The latin influence over Balkans in 5th century B.C??? What are you talking about???Please be reasonable. Regards Aigest (talk) 16:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstood or i did't express it correctly.I dont mean the origin of Bardyllis but that of bardhi.Of course there is and was no Bardocullus.I know that Bardyllis existed as a name.Megistias (talk) 22:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry my late answer but I was on vacation:). Now back to business:), the name Bardhyllis or Bardyllis is a composite name. It contains two words, Bardh (White) and Yllis(Star). The name Hyllus is mentioned in ancient history as the legendary king of Illyrians and it's clearly explained (H)yll(us) (star) in Albanian, that makes Bardyllis (white star). Also names like Bardis, Bardus and Bardibalus-(White forehead) are part of Illyrian onomastics and have been found in Dalmatia, Bosnia and Serbia. So it was a name that was often used by Illyrians. This word can stand as a simple name Bardis (White) or as a composite name Bardyllis (white star) or Bardibalus (white forehead; Ball in albanian means forehead). Also, the word Bardh in albanian defines a color. If this word was to be borrowed by some other language it was to be also a color. The insertion or the use of a foreign word in another language in large part is dued to the absence of that word in the other language (televison for ex), or as a part of the influence of the stronger language as backed up by rule of the state (latinisation for ex.). In any case the imported word has the same meaning in the original and the "adoptive" language. So if it was an imported word it had to have the same meaning on the other language (but this is not the case, no other language in Europe has that name for the white color). Also this word describes a color, and colors (especially simple ones like white for ex.) have difficulties in entering in other laguage, because the are of a daily use and are learned by the speaker in early stages of its life, furthermore if you see a table of comparison of indoeuropean languages (Albanian language for ex.) you can see that colors are an original part of the laguages and are studied because usually they are the lasts to disappear from a language. Also I might add that these names (Bardis, Bardus, Bardibalus, Bardyllis) were mentioned very early in history as names (5th century B.C) so any influence from Latin, Slavs, Gaelic or any population that has entered later than the above mentioned, in politicial history of the Balkans, it is to be 100% excluded. Hope I was clear. Best regards. Aigest (talk) 08:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I knew the above and thatnkou but we need a reliable secodary source to substantiate it.And mention artificial name adding to separate the real ones from the false so they dont go all down the drain.Megistias (talk) 11:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I didn't know that you knew it:), anyhow the above names have been analysed by linguists and generally accepted as such, this is not an original work. For the moment I can not find the original work (although Bard-Bardh and Hyll-Yll looks obvious), but later references have always accepted the explaination of Bardyllis as (white star). Also there is the explaination of Dassius-Dash (ram) a word which was generally used as a man's name through Albanians etc. But I thought that the main reason for this debate was the use of Illyrian names by the Albanians through centuries and yes we can say that and this is an indirect (small or big it depends on the level of the debate:)) prove of the descendance. During communist regime there was a name list and the people were stimulated to use it, but it was not obligatory (just look at the actual names of Albanians for ex. Edvin Rama head of Socialist Party of Albania, clearly has a german name) and many didn't use that option, although there were a lot of peoples who used it and still use them today (but this happens only in Albania).The later fact is more a kind of curiosity or or as an example of propaganda, but it can not discredit the main idea of this debate which is that ILLYRIAN NAMES HAVE BEEN IN USE BY ALBANIANS IN CENTURIES, ...later is propaganda, every state has done it. Best regards. Aigest (talk) 12:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok but we still need sources and if what you say is sourced then names in the countries in illyrian soil -Slovenia & others- are proof that they have illyrian ancestry as well and they must be mentioned.Up to now i havent seen anything special regarding albanians with illyrians and the many countries on illyrian soil.Megistias (talk) 12:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not denying that Illyrians have not left traces, even small ones over the slavs (although Illyrians in that part of Balkans have been assimilated and the population now is dominantly of slav descendance), but the article is about Albanians and their origin. If smth about the legacy of Illyrians to other populations has to be mentioned, than it should be included in the article Illyria, and not in this article about Albania, don't you think?. Anyway, right now I have a lot of work to do (I am not employed in Wiki unfortunatly:)), but I will return in the Albanian article to improve it's quality (and this is a great and unpaid work:)) as soon as possible. By the way, this is what most scholars and Institutions think about Albania [10] . Bests Aigest 13:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Tell me how true is your evidence Megistias, that illyrian language is not transmitted to the Albanians? I am an Albanian. My name Taulant,Illyrian name,Illyrian tribe.The same simple reasoning can be used when talking about the modern Kosovar-Albanians. They are descendants of the Illyrian tribe of Dardanians. Dardania has a meaning only in Albanian. It comes from the word (dardha) which in english is "pear." If I were to be more specific, I could talk about the names of the Illyrian leaders that are still alive in our beautiful indo-european language (the Albanian language,) which is one of the nine indo-european languages. The illyrian king Hyllus has a name that is still very popular in Albania (Ylli) that means "star" in english. The other illyrian king named Bardhyllus in Albania is a very popular name as well (Bardhyl) which in english stands for "white star." The same popularity have the names of the other illyrian leaders such as: Gent, Teuta and Pirro and so many others.These are just some of the facts ...Albanians still even have the same names, same old traditions and same old language. Just read some more about what historians have to say about them.Remember Agroni(Albanian name) the Illyrian king? Remember Teuta (Albanian name) the Illyrian Queen?

You be the judge.Peace. --Taulant23 09:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Reliable secoandary sources are needed.If we would just ask a guy we wouldnt need science.The judges are scientiscts and secondary sourcs.And Pyrrhus was a hellene as the epirotes.Megistias 11:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The subtract of Helens is Albanian ancient population: Pelasgians and then Illyrians, from all the literature you can understand this if you are smart enough or otherwise you do not want to understand. Albanian language is consider by linguistic the oldest living language and Albanian people the oldest people that populated Balkan and not only that. What is the reliable source that you came from Hellenic blood Megistias?!--PIRRO BURRI 13:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

How about and apology?Megistias 17:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I call to anyone who can contribute for organization of a International congress , to do so and collaborate with Albanian Academy in Tirana and Institute of Albanology in Prishtina.Scientific from all word will came and will debate for the pelasgians origin of Albanians , the number of them talking for this issue is extensive.--PIRRO BURRI 13:56, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Albanian identity by Antonina Zhelyazkova

What about some Slav source : As a matter of fact, a legend has been told among the Albanians that they come from the same tribe as Alexander the Great ………..

Ptolemy of Alexandria, the famous Greek astronomer and geographer (2nd c. A.D.), lists the names of the free Illyrian tribes and mentions among them the tribe of the "Albanoi" (Arbërs according to some other sources), who lived in the mountainous area between Durrës and Debar (Alb. Dibra), referring to their town as Albanopolis. There are philological theories assuming that the name of "Albanoi", or "Arbanitai", means "people dressed in white", from the Latin albus. From among this mass of free peasants, who were granted civil rights by a decree issued in 212, Rome recruited soldiers to guard its borders from the barbarian tribes. Their squads grew in number to such an extent that the Illyrian military began to play an important part in Roman political life, even ascending the imperial throne at certain points. In the course of over a century seven Illyrian-born emperors ruled in succession. One of them, Emperor Diocletian, carried out an administrative reform in the Roman Empire by constituting prefectures, dioceses and provinces. In conformity with this reorganisation, the Albanian territory was divided into three provinces: Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. The latter two were part of the Macedonian diocese. The dioceses of Dacia and Macedonia were constituent parts of the prefecture of Illyricum, which comprised the entire Balkans. Albanian identity by Antonina Zhelyazkova [11]--PIRRO BURRI 14:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Epirotes and Macedonians are Greeks and had nothing to do with illyrians Epirus & Macedon.The splitting of provinces by Romans is irrelevant.Albania takes up a very small part of ancient illyria anyways.Megistias 16:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Per Arvanitet: "Kombet nuk jane insekte, qe mund te heqin dore dhe te braktisin aq kollaj kombesine, gjuhen zakonet dhe traditat e tyre si gjarperinjte qe nderrojne lekuren, te mohojne eterit, memedheun dhe fisnikerine e tij, traditat e trimerise se vet, eshte anakronizem dhe e padegjuar, qe ne historine e kombeve te gjejme nje popull aq haram dhe indiferent ndaj vetvetes"Anastastas Kullurioti --PIRRO BURRI (talk) 10:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, really?! What about the legends for Pirro Burri and women in the mountain still keeping coins with the head of Alexander the Great? Yes, you are right it is the small part Albania, because the mostly part is in Greece. If you continue with your negativity is no use for you to contribute in any Albanian or Greek related article and the other users must not take you seriously.. --PIRRO BURRI 17:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Albanians(1000 AD+) and illyrians(1000-1300 bc+) had nothing to do with Epirotes and Macedons who were Greek.Your nationalistic myths and romanticism is not a source and you are the one that is not taken seriously.Your stubborness isnt as a secondary source as well.Epirus & Macedon.Megistias 17:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

He's one to talk about not being taken seriously..LOL. Did you see his posting on the Pelasgians page? There's some pretty funny material there as well. This guy is pure comic relief as far I'm concerned --Tsourkpk 04:33, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Well what is so comic about, anyway you are not comic sfurk , you are liars --217.24.240.11 09:24, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Albanians Descendants of the Illyrians

Offtopic rants and bickering hidden

Albanians Descendants of the Illyrians

Well thanks to Greeks,we as Albanians are doing our homework.Thanks to theses guys I am reading more,there is much information about Albania and her history.Even the ancient Greeks have written about her lands,her people.Good jobs malakias and Efkaristo poli for making us united.Thank u Greeks plz keep up the good job and yes so I don't forget:::::

1---the earliest attempt to link the modern Albanians to the ancient Illyrians was made in 1774 by the Swedish historian Hans Erich Thunman in his book Untersuchungen ueber die Geschichte der Oestlichen Europaischen Voelker (Research on the History of Eastern European Peoples). Using Roman and Byzantine historical sources as well as linguistic and onomastic evidence, Thunman was able to conclude that the Albanians were the autochthon descendants of the ancient Illyrian populations who were never Romanized like the Daco-Thracian populations, forefathers of the Romanians.

2---Austrian linguist, Johannes Georges von Hahn further supported the theory of the Illyrian origin of Albanians in his work Albanesische Studien (Albanian Studies) in 1854. In the course of time many other historians, archeologists, and linguists have provided further arguments supporting the theory that the Albanians and their language are modern day descendants of the Illyrians.

3---Albanians live in the territories once inhabited historical sources pointing to the movement become settlers of these territories.There are no historical sources pointing to the movement of Albanians from elsewhere to become settlers of these territories

4---Components of Illyrian linguistic elements such as names of objects, tribes, names of people etc known can be found in the Albanian language.

5---One of the latest attempts in this ongoing effort to establish a link between these civilizations is a book entitled Ancient Illyria recently published in London.It is a study of unpublished documents and includes the book Illyrian Letters, written by the renowned archeologist Sir Arthur Evans. This work sheds light on the society and the culture of these predecessors of Albanians.

6---The relationships of Albanian with ancient Greek and Latin testify that Albanian was formed and developed alongside these two languages along the shores of the Adriatic and the Ionian Seas.

7---Even according to the writers of ancient Greece, Illyrians and Epirotes did not differ from each other in any way. they lived and were like the modern Albanians, without any difference;Toskeri is the southern part of Albania. Its northern counterpart is known as Gegeri.

they spoke the language which we speak today Ibid p. 11

In antiquity, Herodotus wrote that, Epirus is inhabited by non-Greek peoples who speak a barbarian language Indeed it was this non-Greek language which was later going to be one of the distinguishing elements setting the Albanians apart from other nationalities of the Balkan Peninsula.

plz stop, because more u guys doubt our history,more I find proves that even Dorians were not Greeks, just leave it guys,trust me!stop digging urself a big hole.--Taulant23 02:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

They were the most ancient and Greek of all Greeks NorthwestGreeksThey were the there since 2000 bc with the othwer Greeks 1000 years before Illyrians came in.Use new sources.prehistoric lingual GreeceMargalit Finkelberg(Greeks and Pre-Greeks, Gambridge, edition 2007).

Prehistoric Greece 2000 BC

ISBN-13: 9780521852166 / ISBN-10: 0521852161) Megistias 12:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

You Megistias continue to show again and again the some irrelevant evidence--PIRRO BURRI 13:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

This is an excellent example of what happens to a people when you cut them off from the human race for about half a century and spoon-feed them myths about their "ancestors". Turkmenbashi did exactly the same thing in Turkmenistan, but luckily for the people of Turkmenistan, he lived a lot less than Hoxha. Hopefully the current positive trends in Albania will continue and they will eventually shake off this brainwashing, although I predict it will take a at least a generation. As for these two trolls, the best approach is to just ignore them and their nationalist pseudo-science as long as they aren't trying to place it in the article. --Tsourkpk 23:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Myths? two trolls? Watch ur languange buddie,behind a pc u all are tough.Most of the books I have read these weeks all say that Albanians are descendants of ancient Illyrians.I don't know why is so hard, to see, when the Albanian languange is Illyrian,check the Atlas of languanges.If u do not accept, what the ancient Greek writters, say about Illyrians and Albanians,means u have not even respect for ur own people,shame to u my friend.A month ago u wore vandalizing Albanian pages "and still do by the way" so don't came here and sell ur BS..go read some books dude,not only one, but many.Go learn some Albanian too.I just finished Balkans by Misha Glenny, READ IT,learn open ur mind!I have told u before,If an Albanian in Greece did u bad it does not mean that all of them are bad--Taulant23 23:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

quote Taulant23"If an Albanian in Greece did u bad it does not mean that all of them are bad"-What are you talking about?I am an Arvanite.I have albanian friends. I wont even comment the rest of the stuff you wrote.Wiki works with secondary sources and a specific set of rules.Megistias 23:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

-Tsourkpk was describing the reality of communist isolated societies.Megistias 23:46, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

that was for Tsourkpk unless u have 2 accounts here in Wikipedia,that kinda prove it.By the way 'Arvanite

and u have a Greek nickname??? My family is from Gjirokastra,never saw a Arvanite with a Greek nickname!hmmm --Taulant23 23:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

We consider ourselves Greeks.Since this is irrelevant lets carry on with illyrians.And i am not tspourk.You can see the Ip'sMegistias 23:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

"Watch ur languange buddie, behind a pc u all are tough" (sic) Is this a threat of some sort? Are you some kind of "tough guy" away from your pc? Like I said long ago, I have given up trying to reason with you, however, I need to warn you that it is you who needs to watch your language. Threatening other users is the surest way to get banned from wikipedia. And for the sake of my own entertainment, that would be a pity. --Tsourkpk 00:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Cut off from human race??? What kind of language is that Tsourkpk??? What do you mean with that?? Who is your supposed human race and the "others" ??? You look like nazi!!! Whho do you think you are??? How dare you to speak in that manner?? Even if you were referring to communist regimes, remember that for more than a half century the majority of the population in the world was under communist or like-communist regimes and if you don't know that you shouldn't write about history in first place!!! Which is your standart?? Democracy=human race, others=non humans??? If this is your standard, than you shouldn't edit in wiki, just open your blog and write whatever comes to your mind. How dare you to ofend the other populations. Even the germans after Hitler were not been called like this (and the population didn't deserve it). I am asking you to make an apology for your expression. You are still in time to correct your behaviour by doing that and I think the others will forgive. Aigest 08:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Communist regimes were as worse as nazi regimes in terms of brainwashing,isolation and crimes against its own citizenzs.He wrote you were cutt off from the rest of the world not something else.You are misleading and putting words in his mouthMegistias 11:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

He said ... quote "cut them off from the human race for about half a century" this is racist. He didn't say rest of the world. Don't try to justify him, you don't have to. Aigest 11:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Exactly you were cut off from the rest of the human race and isolated by communists.You weren't part of the democratic world.You couldn't leave Albania or receive information from the outside world.Everything was controlled and they fed you lies.Its called brainwashing and works wonders with isolation.Megistias 12:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

They even added names -Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 196 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.)- And taught you that Greeks(epirotes-macedons....) and others were Illyrians and Albanians which is pure fantasy as modern science has shown.Megistias 12:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The guys are have been lucky, that is why they play like that, if it was for them they were in Communism too; Churchill loved them because he considered them Hellenes. Their state was formed instead of an Albanian state first. This does not mean that we are so much different from you, we share the same ethnicity which is defined form the genetic background and from other element like language, culture, tradition etc which you with conscious abandoned, no similar case is found, now you want to change your own history, what next …? If you are Arvanit please say me a word in Shqip , i am not sure you are Arvanit, anyway i mean such perverted as you guys it can not be found in the word —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.240.11 (talk) 12:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

As for brainwashing I can see it everyday, even in the most democratic state (USA), just look what is happening in the world. Megistas, I hoped you were more intelligent and reasonable than Tsourkpk. If you still can not understand the difference between "cut off from human race" and "cut off from the rest of the world" it's nonsense to continue the discussion anymore. First expression is racial, the second is political. Aigest 12:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I didnt learn the language but a few words like buri thats strong man and besa which is hounour.You can't even begin to compare Cnn news on Iraq for example with Communist regime policies.His expression is valid and metaphoric, you were cut off from the rest of the humans.Megistias 12:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Burri means man, while besa means loyalty or trust. That's hapens when you speak about a topic that you don't have a clue. I was never wondering to speak smth about Greek language because I don't know that language. "Human race" it means race without reference to ruling system, while rest of the world can include the ruling system. That's why the term was racist. But if you think that these happened during cummunist regime, you are wrong. I can give you a list of the Albanian personalities who believed the Albanians come from Epirots. Skanderbeg (1405-1468) Marin Barletius (1450-1513) Gjin Mussachi (1510) Cane Koronas (1519) Frang Bardhi (1606-1643) Pjeter Bogdani(1630-1680) Konstandin Duka (1750-1820) Engjell Mashi (1758-1821) Jani Veliraj (1771-1823) Vicenc Dorsa (1823-1888) Thimi Mitko (1820-1890) Jeronim De Rada (1814-1903) Elena Gjika "Dora D'Istria" (1829-1888) Pjeter Kiara (1849-1915) Zef Jubani (1818-1880) Vasil Zoto (1837-1912) Pashko Vasa (1825-1895) Jani Vreto (1822-1900) Naim Frasheri (1846-1900) Preng Doci (1846-1917) Loni Llogori 1871-1929) Sami Frasheri (1850-1904) Luigj Gurakuqi 1879-1925) Gasper Jakova (1870-1941) Mihal Grameno (1871-1930) Ndoc Camaj (1880-1917) Risto Siliqi (1882-1936) Now.....where is the communist regime??? And the communist propaganda??? If you don't know the facts don't rush in conclusions. You are WRONG!!! (For your info the communist regime in Albania was established in 1945 A.D.) Aigest 13:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Too bad for you all the above were proven wrong by the scientific communityMegistias 13:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The beliefs of albanian personalities of the past century and even before that is irrelevant.During the communist regime this happened= Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 196 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.)Megistias 14:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

This has not to do with bad or good. History is history, one doesn't have to feel good or bad about history as long as he does not partecipate in the events. Anyway the point was communist propaganda and isolation as I remember. You can see by yourself that you were WRONG on that. The historians you mention are wrong by the way. As for the science it always moves on, for your info right now is undergoing a genetic research on the Europian population. And a recent study (2007) showed that the Etruscans were genetically related to Pelasgians in Lydia and Lemnos [12]. or [13] You can write propaganda on the books but you can not change human DNA (until now at least). Not to speak about the other studies that you know well, but you don't have the courage to admit..... So as I said the science is moving on and new findings promise some surprises for actual historians. Aigest 14:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

We were talking for "communist brainwashig" as I remember. I thought that I made it clear to you that the Albanians always have regarded themselves as Illyrian descendants. As this happened centuries ago, this Miranda reference is pointless. It always has been so in Abania, since the first documents about them and the Albanians still do. Aigest 14:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I am not wrong and i quote historians and sources accepted by wikipedia.Again you go racial and try to express your historical dogmatic nationalism.There is no world conspiracy against albania.You and many other albanian on the page quote racist documents(white history by Taulant23) and make proclamations that belong in bad sci-fi books(arvanites the only hellens by pirro burri).Persistance is not a secondary source.Replies on the page are a compilation from various nationalist albanian websites with arbitrary titles. This is a dogmatic, claim you are making in general by falsification of sources or supporting unreliable sources to support a predetermined claim.Illyrians also have nothing to do with Greeks(epirotes,macedons,pelasgians..).Megistias 14:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

hahaha Dude DNA doesn't lie [14]. If you see these you can see that in all the graphics Albania and part of Greece has the same color and share specific characteristichs. Look very carefully and "your" theoery of Dacians doesn't exist anymore. What is this racist? Am I blaming myself or the others? For what? Am I insulting anybody about his race?? I am just saying that you can lie in books, but you can't lie on DNA. It is the book of GOD. Aigest 15:02, 4 December 2007 (UTC) BTW the sources I mentioned were not albanian websites. It is very easy to deny everything buddy, but you should know that DNA prove, is the most strongest one in a juridical process, and this means that is the strongest one in every aspect of the life. Aigest 15:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

That is a about etruscans and prehistoric migrations.Intermarriage defines the genetics of the populace worldwide.And from the same article"But this study quickly came under attack. Working with ancient DNA is extremely difficult, because most bones from archaeological sites have been carelessly handled. Extensively contamination with modern human DNA can swamp the signal of what little ancient DNA may still survive.Hans-Jürgen Bandelt, a geneticist at the University of Hamburg in Germany, wrote that the DNA recovered from the Etruscan bones showed clear signs of such problems."It proves nothing .Megistias 15:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Dude....every theory comes under attack. Remember Einstain for example. If you further search the internet you can see that the above mentioned conclusions of the theory have been widely accepted. When you make genetic research you go into the genetic material (in these case bones) to prevent contamination (by touching for example), so they took the genetic materials from within the bones. You have to understand that genetic studies search for specific characteristichs. Of course there are intermarriage links etc, but these characteristichs show the movements of the populations. Anyway in these case there were STRONG links, which means that there was a migration. Aigest 15:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The research doesnt say that modern albanians are ancient illyrians...It is an assumption regarding etruscans and isnt proof of anything.Megistias 15:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The etruscan story was an example to show you that the science moves on and things that before were considered wrong or inimaginable are proven to be true. Aigest 15:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The etruscan migration from asia minor wasnt thought impossible.Megistias 15:45, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I can see by his hysterical reaction to what I said, that this aigest's knowledge of the english language is as poor as his knowledge of history, LOL. Go edit the shqip wikipedia, buddy, and leave the english wikipedia to the english speakers. And if you don't apologize to me, I will refer you to the administrators, and you WILL get banned for daring to call me a nazi, I promise you. There's no easier way to get banned from wikipedia than by calling other users nazis, like you just did. --Tsourkpk 19:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Both of you are not Arvanites, they will not say such things, I am clear now that the only thing you want to protect is your own nationalistic thesis. The authors that put Epriotes and Macedonian as Albanian ancestor are multiple and is almost widely accepted but not only them but other Greek main tribes like Doret. The placement of Arvanit population in Greece shows a lot, why you do not ask Arvanites they will tell you their origin, many of them are autochthon in Greece. If you see for example the tradition, customs, houses in area of Peloponesis ( I have seen myself ) are very similar with north Albania. You must come from Mars when you say that Epriote are not Albanian (even the way Pirro Burri was call only in our language has a meaning and the legend are told for him and for Leka Read Pilika) and also they related members Macedonian. They language was not the developed ancient Greek all the authors says that read Parallel lifes of Plutarcus. I mean you people must be sick nationalist and very unlogical --PIRRO BURRI 20:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

---

"Too bad for you all the above were proven wrong by the scientific community" huh????? do u mean the Greek community?? cuz the last time I checked the Albanians wore proven to be linked to Illyrians,the last I checked the Albanian languange was and is Indo-European.

Guys a Arvanite that says I'am Greek its not a Arvanit but a Greek!The ancestors of the arvanites where Albanian farmers and highlanders from Toskëria and Epirus!My great-grandfather was Arvanit..Arbanitika belongs to the linguistic family of Albanian.The first Christian Albanian migrations to central and southern(note: Albanian of north-western Greece are on Albanian native lands) of what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1). So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arbanites in Central and Southern Greece.

When the modern Greek state was formed, the Albanian-speaking population and its language were called Albanian .Bickford-Smith, 1993: 47; Embeirikos, 1994; Vakalopoulos, 1994:243-249). However, the policy of the new Greek state was to Hellenize all the non-Greek speaking Orthodox populations within its, then limited, territory as well as in the territories of Epirr, Macedonia, Thrace and Asia Minor still under Ottoman rule). As elsewhere in Europe, army and education were the most effective mechanisms of Hellenization, assisted by the judiciary system ready to denounce and punish all forms of behavior inconsistent with the state’s nationalist culture (Kitromilidis, 1990:38; Kollias, 1994).

check this:http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Arvanitika or this http://www.traboini.com/al/public_02.html or ARVANITET By Irakli Kocollari Reviewed by Dr. Arben Kallamata

If u are Arvanit than translate this,my grandpa used to sing it to me:Moj e bukura Moré, si të lash më s´të pashë, si të lash, si të lash, si të lash më s´të pashë... rri o laman se sje Arvanit ti po ik e shkërdheu me gjith Grek! The fustanella is albanian! The most maniotes are of arvanite origin, the have same customes as the northern albanian highlanders and the montenegrin highlanders!

Theodor Kollokotroni was atleast partially Albanian, one of his grandparents was from Delvina, southern Albania! He considered the albanians as his "brothers by blood"! BUT HEY I won't bother with facts here,anymore,they are no good for a bunch of ultra-nationalist whatsoever.They even like Slav more than us, and my great-grandfathers had fought for Greece,all I have to say F-em. You can't give a blind man his eyesight if he wants to remain in darkness for eternity. --Taulant23 (talk) 22:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You guys are merely disrupting/Spamming,trolling.... the pageMegistias (talk) 23:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any trolling here by my side, may be others have done it. Just read above for what I have said. Aigest (talk) 10:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Please...

1. Stop filling this page with off-topic rants and personal bickering. This page has become totally unreadable.
2. Everybody please review the recent decision by the Arbitration Committee, stating that "Any uninvolved administrator may, on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working [...on Balkans-related articles...] if that editor fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, the expected standards of behavior, or the normal editorial process." All participants in the recent ugliness on this page please be put on notice that I will consider invoking this ruling if I see the disruption continuing.
3. Please everybody learn to format talk pages correctly, to make things readable. Indent your comments. Don't use "<p>" tags. It works like this:

First comment 
:Second comment
::Third comment

Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Which are Albania's official languages?

Is this language, Macedonian_language, an official one in Albania, as cited here Macedonian_language and here List_of_official_languages?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heracletus (talk • contribs) 05:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Deceptive section on Holocaust

Jews were able to find a safe haven in Albania, because until 1943, Albania was under ITALIAN (not Nazi German) control, and Italy did not tow the line of the Nazi German "final solution". This article makes it look as though Albania were some kind of independent state who took in Jews of its own accord, rather than the reality that it was a puppet state of the Italian Fascist regime, under full control of Italian troops. The proof to this effect is that after the collapse of the Italian zone in 1943, and the invasion of Albania by Nazi Germany, an Albanian SS Division was set up and operated out of Pristina, Kosovo (1944). Almost 40% of Kosovo's Jews died in the Holocaust. Another proof is that when Greece was occupied by Germany, Bulgaria, and Italy, it was the Italian occupation zone where the Jews were unharmed and a number of Jews from the German zone were able to find refuge in the Italian zone. After the collapse of the Italian zone and the Nazi takeover, the Holocaust spread to those locations as well. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005778 http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous/bycountry/albania.html http://www1.yadvashem.org/education/entries/english/28.asp http://books.google.com/books?id=gRdUvDLC3pgC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=%22yad+vashem%22+albania&source=web&ots=P_17341O3W&sig=Bh_Qn-C0xYhRJXGiteRvABCLNBI

While the rescue efforts by ordinary Albanians of their Jewish neighbors is praiseworthy and should be included in the article, the article should emphasize the fact that the safe haven found in Albania by Jews from outside the country is due to Italy's occupation of the country, since the country's borders and ports were under full Italian control. As the article stands at the moment, the article's flagrant lack of neutrality leads one to suspect an attempt at revisionism and politicization due to the high political stakes in neighboring Kosovo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 16:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Albania and Albanian language and Epir and Epirotic language are synonyms

With evidence from 15th century literature .Please see the references they want more reliable sources, if you can add futher i will appriciate

‘’ Marin Barleti The story of life and deeds of Skanderbeg, the prince of Epirotes. Rome 1506-1510’’

‘’Pjeter Bogdani Cuneus ProphetarumCvnevs prophetarvm de Christo salvatore mvndi et eivs evangelica veritate, italice et epirotice contexta, et in duas partes diuisa a Petro Bogdano Macedone, Sacr. Congr. de Prop. Fide alvmno, Philosophiae & Sacrae Theologiae Doctore, olim Episcopo Scodrensi & Administratore Antibarensi, nunc vero Archiepiscopo Scvporvm ac totivs regni Serviae Administratore" (The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets)”Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005’’

‘’Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz Correspondence on the Albanian Language1705-1715 [15]’’--Besa Arvanon (talk) 14:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

To the roman the byzantine and the Ottoman empire.The albanians descent in Epirus in 1000 ad and move more to the south while living with the Greeks there.It was never part of Albania but of the Byzantine and the Ottoman empire since it has to do with 1000 AD and after.500 years later the name appears as a historical anachronism.You use original research and unreliable sources all the time.Megistias (talk) 14:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you tell me what is you bussiness in Albanian related pages , what is your conection with us ??--Besa Arvanon (talk) 14:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Allow me to answer that... You post in an international encyclopedia, where everyone is allowed to contribute... Not flame or vandalize, but contribute. So, "original research and unreliable sources" is not allowed. So, if you want just to say what you wanna, you may do so in your own space... not here. By the way, why do you post here anyway, this is THE ENGLISH version.... Heracletus (talk) 11:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The albanoi tribe location and the city

The tribe and city was Northeast of DyrrachiumAlexander G. Findlay,mapMegistias (talk) 23:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Holocaust

I have marked the Holocaust section as NPOV, since it contains glaring omissions and factual inaccuracies and has a completely pro-albanian wording which doesn't belong in Wikipedia. We should present facts neutrally and not praise one people or another. I don't mind praising Albania amongst the righteous of nations. The more the happier :) - but at least do so without the fanatic bias the section has right now. For an instance the lack of prosecution of jews prior to 1943 was due to Albania being occupied by Fascist Italy and not Nazi Germany. The situation changed after the fall of Italy. The word "unique" is used twice though there are no sources supporting such wording. Add to that the severe lack of sources compared with the wording. PS. This should not be understood as a denial of the jew saving operations of albanians. But merely as a reminder that the wording is biased and contains factual omissions. I'd like to see the section expanded since it is an important part of Albanian history (IMHO). Dylansmrjones (talk) 23:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I have readded the tag removed by Taulant23. He appears to be blocked atm. I hope people will let the tag stay for at least 48 hours while I work on a draft for a rewording of the Holocaust-section. If it is removed again I will not re-add the tag, but will instead seek mediation. Dylansmrjones (talk) 00:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

If you check the Yad Vashem website http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/what_new/gershman/temp_index_whats_new_Gershman.html you will find that the article, as is, is essentially accurate, including the superlatives. The suggested changes and comments are quibbles at best. I suggest removing the unwarranted tag.Paul Kovnick (talk) 21:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't mean it is a fact. That only means that the persons behind the website has that opinion. As a scholarly source it is not all that credible. But we can add something like this: "According to Yad Vashem, there is no way to deny the importance of the actions by the Albanian people". But it has no value as a scholarly source. It only proves that the jews are really happy about being saved, and that's quite understandable. We need a reliable third party source (an impartial historian) arguing the undeniability of the help from the entire albanian people.Dylansmrjones (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll rewrite the section in the weekend, but I'm in the process of rewriting the article on BNP, so this one will have to wait. But the new source doesn't contain anything related to "undeniability" of the entire albanian people. And is somewhat contradictory to the contents of the section. Dylansmrjones (talk) 22:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It just does not make sense to discuss the Holocaust in the context of Albania without mentioning the fact that any Jews who could find a safe haven in Albania during the War did so when the country was under Italian military control. Why does the article continue to omit this fact? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 22:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion in the following argument

I would like to edit this article on the grounds that there are errors and inaccurate statements in need of improvement. I possess sources that I would like to have scrutinized for topicality, reliability, accuracy, and verifiability. Please critique the following arguments along with the sources attached to them:

Albanian were called Epiriotes and their National Heroes Gjergj Kastrioti Princ of Epiriotes at least from 15th century ‘’ Marin Barleti The story of life and deeds of Skanderbeg, the prince of Epirotes. Rome 1506-1510’’

Albanian language was named also Shqip or Epirotic in 17th century. Source :Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum On the basis of the original edition Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum, per R.D. Franciscum Blanchum, Romae: Typis Sac.Congr.de Propag. Fide. 1635 [16]

This correlates and with the extend of Albanian population and Albanian language in 19th century [17]

I am not assuming anything about the ancient Epirotic population which happen to be in other period of time and will be needed further evidence for this other point.Dodona --Burra (talk) 11:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thats historical anachronism (and original research).Greeks were the actual Epirotes and living in Epirus since antiquity while albanians in the late middle ages lived among the Greeks.Megistias (talk) 11:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Its a misnaming like these.We can include all these names as well?

Misnaming

Because of confounding nationality with religious affiliation many authors from Byzantine times have also called and registered Albanians with the following names:

• Latins; term used during the Middle Ages from Venetian and other European authors to denote Albanians of Catholic faith mainly in the Northern regions up to the 19th century.
• Greeks; old term used generically from Byzantine times up to the 20th century by other European authors to denote Albanians of Orthodox faith in the Southern regions, as also those migrating, during the Ottoman Occupation, from Epirus and Peloponnese to Italy. Toponyms reflecting this historical misnaming began being corrected in Italy during the 1930s.
• Serbs; old term as above, used by authors to denote Albanians of Orthodox faith in the Northern regions up to the 19th century.
• Turks; old term used by ecclesiastical writings and embraced by other European authors to denote Albanians of Muslim faith, and generally all Albanian legions of the Ottoman army.Also called Turkalbanians.
• Epirotes; old term widely used during the Middle Ages by local and foreign authors.

Megistias (talk) 11:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but your answer are without any reference, and I will add further evidence :

1 . The Albanians of Muslim religion were not differentiated by foreigners and were called also Epiriotes no matter what their religion was ..Reference “Ali Pashe kingdom 1744-1822 who was prescribed by british poet Bajron in his poem Childe Harold "Albania" A Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press, 2000. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University

2.The Albanian language was forbidden for long time while the Greek was official language of Byzantine Empire and allowed to flourish during Ottoman Empire. So they had the chance to speak Greek more the Albanian References ” The long-forbidden Albanian language was printed 1920 in Contemp. Rev. Aug. 210 . “Freed from Turkish prohibition,..the cult of the national language became almost a religion to the Albanians.” Ref 1920 Contemp. Rev. Aug. 210 Oxford English Dictionary 2007 Oxford Reference Online”

3.The population map does not indicate that Albanians or Arvanites or Epiriotes “lived among the Greeks” but the opposite. If you compare the first map with the second one will see that there was not a process of Albanization but the opposite process happen[18][19]

4. You are right that Albanians that migrated from Epirus or Peloponnese or Albania itself (present borders ) were called Greek before the creation of modern Greek state and Albanian state but this was not by mistake or because of the religion .Reference: “DioGuardi and his wife, Shirley, offered to accompany me back to Greci, a somnolent village among the golden wheat fields of Campania. About the only Arberesh-Albanian DioGuardi remembers is "Gjaku i shprishur," which means, approximately, "Our scattered blood." But it was a magic greeting, enough to light up many eyes and get DioGuardi a bear hug from Giovanni Pucci, a retired grocer who shares a great-grandfather with him. /"I may be an American, with both parents from Italy," DioGuardi said, "but I now have an Albanian heart." Reference ALBANIANS A PEOPLE UNDONE Priit J. Vesilind Source:National Geographic 197.2 (Feb 2000): p.52. (3795 words) Dodona--Burra (talk) 17:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The albanian language has thracian affinity [20] An ancient language of Southern Balkans, belonging to the Satem group of Indo-European. This language is the most likely ancestor of modern Albanian (which is also a Satem language), though the evidence is scanty. 1st Millennium BC - 500 AD.The illyrian languages are larglely unknown and many of the "illyrian" tribes spoke non illyrian languages.Veneti were not illyrian indeed they were italic tribes.Epirotes-Macedons were GreekNW greeksin ancient even par few exceptions that go with insults hurled at spartans,thessalian and others that Athenians did not like.Pelasgians are on the same case Greeks,not illyrians but in ancient texts Greeks in all but very few exceptions or they may not have existed.On illyrians and albanians once if ever the language gets discovered we may find out but up to then will still wander.Albanian nationalism demands to include non illyrians as illyrians(all ancient hellenes).Megistias (talk) 19:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The first undisputed mention of the ancestors of modern Albanians seems to be in the form of Arbanitai of Arbanon in an account by Anna Comnena of the troubles in that region during the reign of her father Alexius I Comnenus (1081-1118) by the Normans.You are not in Epirus before this only Greeks are there you are more to the North.You came after and slowly descended.Megistias (talk) 19:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

You supposedly use [21]Oxford Reference Online.Please illustrate.Not that is has helped you so far.Megistias (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Megistias,I bet you will start a war edited like most of the Greeks here on Wiki do,on Albania,Macedonia or Bulgaria articles etc.That's why you are using those maps Megistias? I have no problem with them but Megistias,Epir it was NOT Greek nor is the north Epir,just two days ago a Arvanitas told me that Epir its not even a greek word!Only the nationalist Greek voices pretend that it is AND if it was, what do u want?, you want the land back? Albanians have houses and lands all way in Athens,does that says that the land is a part of Albania? Stop your nationalist crap and open your eyes,Albanians were and are not the enemy of Greece!--Taulant23 (talk) 06:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC) There is 800,000 Albanians in Greece almost a milion is that the reason why you hate Albania?

I strongly urge Megistias not to insert information that can be construed as "greek superiority" in Albania. And I strongly urge Taulant23 not to engage in an edit war with Megistias, no matter what happens. If anything is amiss insert templates, until disputes are resolved. Personally I doubt the credibility of Megistias' sources, but that's just my opinion.Dylansmrjones (talk) 06:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Megistias is not proposing to insert anything in the article, nor does he make ridiculous, provocative accusations of ethnic hatred. As for the statement "I bet you will start a war", not only does that sound like baiting, but it is a bit rich coming coming from one of the persistent, and disrespectful, edit-warriors I have had the displeasure of dealing with. I am not able to comment on Megistias' sources, but National Geographic is a non-peer reviewed, teen-level publication and it does not meets WP:RS. The article moreover mentions the Arbereshe villages of Italy, not Epirus. And where do you see even a hint of "Greek superiority" in Megistias' sources? If anything, it is the Albanian editors that are making veiled territorial claims on Greece by spouting nonsense about Epirus not being Greek. I have lived in Epirus. I have family there. I can tell you it is overwhelmingly Greek. That's all that matters. The only Albanians there are post-1991 immigrants. And besides, this is completely irrelevant to this article. This is the article on Albania, not Epirus. --Tsourkpk (talk) 07:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Relax Tsourkpk. I'm not Taulant23. When you reply to two different persons, please split your reply; otherwise I'm just going to get confused ;) - I agree with you that Taulant23 has a tendency towards edit wars. That's why I'm asking him not to engage in one. And I'm asking Megistias not to add anything that could (in a reasonable way) be construed as greek superiority. The same goes for albanian material. I'm merely trying to defuse the war that will undoubtedly come if we don't defuse the situation.Dylansmrjones (talk) 08:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Ahem, my previous statement was indeed written on impulse and I apologise for that. I also realized i should have split my reply somewhat belatedly. But I am mystified as to what can be construed as "greek superiority". Neither I nor Megistias has made any such edits to my knowledge. That said, I do appreciate your efforts at defusing these sorts of situations tremendously and you are badly needed here. Carry on. --Tsourkpk (talk) 08:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I have been called a nazi and many other "names" by Taulant and a horde of albanian editors.My page has been attacked many times.Nowhere have i placed "greek superiority" in Albania or anywhere elseDont lie and put words in my mouth.Taulant hasnt even apologised not the other offenders except one person. " Personally I doubt the credibility of Megistias' sources"What are you saying? Check them out at [22],[23],[24]

You must be talking about the Albanians posting here!!!!!!!!!!!My sources are excellent as always.Megistias (talk) 15:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I want Taulant to APOLOGISE now for all the racist name calling and harrasment.NOwhere have i written hateful words for anyone and albanians have called me RACIST names all the time on wiki.Taulant you dont belong here.What you write above is you imagination and you truly are not logical.Epirus was Greek and your NATIONALISM dear Taulant is inexplicable, read the sources and wake up.You lived in a communist country where you had many problems and they fed you tales that you were Pelasgians,Macedons,Epirotes and many other Hellenes while mixing Illyrian with them.REad the books[25]

Read the sources [26] Read the InscriptionsInscriptions by Regionand wake up.Megistias (talk) 15:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

My sources are Perfect."so in determined periods there comes a great winter of a great year and with it excess of rain. But this excess does not always occur in the same place. The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes."Epirus was Greece.Check the text[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.1.i.html Meteorology

By Aristotle]4th paragraph from the end just use find.Now can anyone tell me what is going on here and why Taulant and the rest of attackers have not all been banned on Lying and disrupting and vandalising and all the wiki sins?Is Aristotle lying?World conspiracy against albania?What do you want?Megistias (talk) 15:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree about "Greek" superiority in all Albanian related articles, were the balance is disputed, I call for collaboration to change this situation. I propose to add in the article the statement, with respective references. In case that you have other constructive suggestions, please feel free : “Albania and Albanian was recognized with Epir and Epiriot in their unity under the commander of Scanderbeg against the Turkish occupation and during Ali Pashe Tepelena kingdom, in the literature Albanian language was also named Epirotic. The territory has correspondent geographic distribution with ancient Epirus"Dodona --Burra (talk) 17:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Greek region of Epirus and a misnaming as albanians were not Epirotes.There is no "Greek" superiority in any Albanian related articles.Stop trolling and spamming and lying and puttin words into peoplesMegistias (talk) 17:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Pov pushing and nationalistic.And you dont discuss nor answer the issues above.TrollMegistias (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please stop offending and apologias me!Dodona --Burra (talk) 17:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

You should be banned.Stop lying and pushing all the way while ignoring sources and povpushing your dogmaMegistias (talk) 17:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

You are a known sockpuppet Burra.Megistias (talk) 18:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please stop offending and apologias me, I am not socket puppet of no one, this was my name from the beginning Dodona --Burra (talk) 18:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

You are a known sockpuppet to admins.[27]"you promise you will accept that and not start sockpuppeting again".Megistias (talk) 18:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please stop offending and apologias me, I am not socket puppet of no one, this was my name from the beginning ? Dodona --Burra (talk) 18:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Guys, relax, please. We currently have an agreement that gives Burra a second chance at contributing, trying to see if it can work out. So, if he has to say something, let's hear it. If there are objections to what he proposes, please point it out briefly and politely. If and when the discussion reaches a point where no progress is made, we'll close it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

There are paragraphs of misnaming of the Albanians in several other albanian articles.All misnaming go in with explanations or none at all.Megistias (talk) 18:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

He got to apologias me for insulting and deleting my talk, to Albania talk page, I mean what agreement can be reach with him, they are the boss and they do what ever they want, don’t you see this very clear ,he is passionate and has very strong bias and no will to collaborate Dodona --Burra (talk) 18:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

how old are you??!!Megistias (talk) 18:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I can apologias to a child if I am wrong , I apologias to you ones to show good will to collaborate, but you did not care at all and deleted my apology , I did not ask you how old you are ?!Dodona --Burra (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I did not want to change subject but since you persist, the same situation happened and before, I call you not to be engaged in very disputed arguments like how much Greek the Epirus and Macedonia were ??!! Reference “Hellenized is to learn speak: Source : Greek World. Ed. John Roberts. Oxford University Press Online, 2007. term used for Epiriotes which were partly Hellenized and annexed southern Illyria, Hellenized Epirote state but tried to emancipate Epirus from Macedon. Reference : "Pyrrhus(2) " Source : Oxford Dictionary of the Classical World. Ed. John Roberts. Oxford University Press Online, 2007 by Plutarchus was described in his manuscript of Parallel Life as they speak a different language and the Greek language was learned; Macedonian and Epiriotes spoke the same language” Source: Parallel Life Plutarchus.Dodona --Burra (talk) 19:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I want to come to an agreement so you may wish to add your dispute in my previous argument Dodona --Burra (talk) 19:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

With Megistias is pointless talking,in my books just another uneducated vandal who cries for help and complains to other admin or editors to achieve his nationalistic goals! I talked to u in here, because I have nothing to hide, you have turn the Albanian page in a nationalistic war propaganda,I asked,what do u want?, you want the land back?? Come and get it than! its north-weast,I am sure the Albanians will be prepared to wait for you as a liberator,king Megistias..:)))) talk,Tsourkpk and other names that this kid uses are socket puppet,is the same person only a blind editor or admin can't see that.He just said that I saw his website and call him NAZI when I never did that but used the word Nazi to another user who had a racial prowhite Greek website.{which was funny too though cuz Albanians are white too}.. My advise to you Megistias,go get a real job or maybe get a degree use this time in a productive way.

p.s.read books not intertnet BS, chack this,ARVANITASIT and the Greek origin of ARISTIDH P. KOLA, and to the Albanians too,plz read this book!!!!

GREKU PARA SE TE BEHEJ GREK,ISHTE SHQIPETAR, dmth PELLAZG...GREK DO TE THOTE SHQIPETAR I CIVILIZUAR. MARKO N. BOCARI, XHAVELA and SHEHU!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taulant23 (talk • contribs) 19:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

What you write above deserves no comments from me but this.Kollia which is a like a bible to albanian nationalism wrote a book with pseudonationalistic "evidence" that has no value or worth other than as a joke.You call me all these various names that many are seen in history of talk pages.You call Aristotle,all the ancients and universities around the globe "internet BS"?If you believe in book like that of Kollias you have serious issues with your perception.The book is trash to say the least in the same level as any nationalistic book in of the "Aryan" mindset type.Megistias (talk) 19:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please do not change subject! ARISTIDH KOLA if you know anything about him was much respected individual, he was the president of Arvanitic Legue of Greece and a honorable lawyer. His books are best seller in Greece itself and what is more he was Greek, , honorable Greek an ARVANITAS.Dodona --Burra (talk) 19:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Well he is writting what Marko Boçari is saying and hey If that book was a joke why the Greeks killed Aristidh Kola??? Why were they so afraid of it,the book has a lot of sources and it does use ancient writters.He was Arvanitas and they killed him, why??I thought he was Greek!! Think Moe, think!!!--Taulant23 (talk) 19:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Dude honestly this is tiresome.Conspiracy theories? Tell me how do you explain all the ancient texts and finds?

"so in determined periods there comes a great winter of a great year and with it excess of rain. But this excess does not always occur in the same place. The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes."Epirus was Greece.Check the text[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.1.i.html Meteorology By Aristotle]4th paragraph from the end just use find.

Also i had an arvanite grandfather and noone bothered me,i was proud of it and proclaimed it but i dont think that arvanites are pelasgian or something of the sort.They are natives to the balkans but northern thracians .Also those stuff about claiming lands and the such i dont get........?

Do you have a pdf of kollias book?Its not provided here.[28]You should realise that he was a pseudo-historian and that his book is not a source for anything.He was not historian.Please answer for the ancient sources the modern universities and why for gods sake you think that Kollias supresedes the whole of human science? Megistias (talk) 19:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Now everybody, please stop it. Here. Now. This debate, or whatever you want to call it, has degenerated to a point where we simply have to stop it. Next person posting any comment here that is not exclusively focussed on the needs of editing this article gets blocked for minimum a week. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Solvency?

This discussion page has truly become a source of disorienting content. However, I managed to follow through with what has been discussed as best as I could.

Here is my assessment:

1) Dodona - I am glad to see that you are following the rudimentary aspects of the advice I gave you. You are indeed presenting your arguments and references, which is a sign of improvement (even though your English needs work). However, your major weakness entails the fact that your references have not been directly cited. In other words, merely providing external links does not help your position. You need to provide word-for-word citations that correlate with your argument(s). I know this is hard for you, but learn from Megistias since he was successful in providing a counterargument because of his ability to cite direct references word for word.

2) Taulant23 - Please cease agitating other users on this discussion space. I know how much you want to present your views, but the way you are doing it will not convince anyone to agree with you on anything. It is a simple fact and I recommend learning it.

3) Megistias, Tsourkpk, etc. - Just so you know, I am Dodona's mentor and am trying to help him improve as a user. If you have problems with Dodona, you will need to report to me (or to Future Perfect if I am not around). I already convinced Dodona to apologize and I hope to convince him in ultimately providing positive contributions to Albania-related articles. If possible, try providing some helpful advice so that Dodona becomes more aware of what needs to be done if he wants his arguments to be heard and acknowledged.

According to my assessment, I conclude the following:

1) Dodona - Please see me so that I can show you how to better phrase your arguments and avoid POV.

2) Taulant23 - I advise that you either provide positive contributions or leave. The choice is ultimately yours to make.

3) Megistias, Tsourkpk, etc. - Provide assessment analyses of all arguments and references provided by Dodona. Organize them, scrutinize them and come to a consensus. If you want to, follow the standard I used when I resolved the Pelasgians controversy here. Only after you have done this, will you be able to logically and definitively discern whether Dodona's statements are worthy of acknowledgment. Present counterarguments and evidence where necessary.

If Dodona's arguments and references are deemed unreliable, inaccurate or unverifiable, then it is up to Dodona (or anyone who helps him) to provide better arguments and references. Yelling at each other accomplishes nothing.

If a consensus between users is not established and enforced, then a consensus between administrators must be established. I hope we do not have to reach that point.

Please follow my advice if any of you want to resolve this issue once and for all. Keep in mind also that this advice is not meant to force anyone into doing anything. I am not an administrator, but I will step in to resolve issues that should have been taken care of a long time ago. Thank you. Deucalionite (talk) 00:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Future Perfect, I am aware of your frustration and agree that all diatribes cease further progression. However, please ban users only when necessary. Do not let your frustration cloud your sense of judgment as an administrator. If the advice I have provided in this section is ignored and users resume bickering, then I will leave everything up to you. Deucalionite (talk) 01:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreement?

I am emphasizing all the reference:

References :

1.’ ‘Albanians, a martial race, were unanimous to live and die with their hereditary prince" and that "in the assembly of the states of Epirus, Skanderbeg was elected general of the Turkish war and each of the allies engaged to furnish his respective proportion of men and money’’Source :Edward Gibbon, 1788, History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Volume 6, Scanderbeg section

2.Ali Pashe kingdom 1744-1822 who was prescribed by british poet Bajron in his poem Childe Harold Source : "Albania" A Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press, 2000. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University

3.Source :Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum On the basis of the original edition Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum, per R.D. Franciscum Blanchum, Romae: Typis Sac.Congr.de Propag. Fide. 1635 [29]

4.' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark [30]

This is my agreement taking in consideration both opinions:

New section : Albanian as Epiriotes : ‘ ‘ According to 16th century sources and latter the Scanderbeg's Albanians ( c. 1404–1468 ) and Ali Pasha Kingdom ( c. 1744 – 1822 ), were associated with Epirus, despite the fact that this association was seen by some authors as reflective of European romanticism over classical Greco-Roman civilization assuming that the use of the term Epirus mainly embodied both regal and geographical meanings but this thesis is not accepted by Albanians and some other foreigner modern authors .The same attribution as Epirotic was given to Albanian language by some of earliest available Albanian writings “”Dodona--Burra (talk) 18:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Since this is a clear misnaming it has to be clarified and that Epirotes[31] were Greeks.Albanians appear in the 11th century AD(reference Anna Komnene, Alexiad 4.8.4) and later on in the general area and descend later on to reach the situation in Skenderbeg's time and the 15th to 17th century situation.Its a source of conflict and if it is clarified as anachronistic romanticism and mentioned than the addittion is ok by me.It has to be clear that "despite the fact that this association was seen by some authors as reflective of European romanticism over classical Greco-Roman civilization assuming that the use of the term Epirus mainly embodied both regal and geographical meanings but this thesis is not accepted by nationalist Albanian circles and some pseudo-historians like Edwin E. Jacques and Kollias, Aristidis .Albanians had no relationship with the region of Epirus till the 11th(reference Anna Komnene, Alexiad 4.8.4) century AD and later on.The region was inhabited by Greeks since early antiquity.The same attribution as Epirotic was given to Albanian language by some of earliest available Albanian writings though in the same anachronistic manner. "Megistias (talk) 20:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly what Burra is trying to say. That Albanians are associated with Epirus by some sources? If so, so what? This is merely a misnaming, like Megistias said. History is full of those. Even so, such statements would belong in the article the Albanians or Epirus, not here. The first statement is ungrammatically long, and vaguely worded. What exactly is meant by "associated"? Which authors? What did they say? This is the English wikipedia. Everything has to be sourced, and be written in clear, legible english. As for the second statement, again it is in very bad English, but even then it is totally unsourced, and is moreover precisely the kind of statement that requires a source (but I doubt you will find one). Burra's above statements cannot be inserted in the article in their current form in my opinion. As for sources: 1) Not sure if it is appropriate to use a source from 1788. 2) Sources 2 and 3 are merely references and links. You must provide the actual quote, like Deucalionite said. 3) Barleti is not a serious scholar, just a nationalist author. --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Barletti was a 15th century Albanian Priest you mean Kollias.And its Epirotes not Epiriotes guys.The fact that albanians had nothing to do with epirus must be clear as it is.Megistias (talk) 21:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Right, I meant Kollias. I really don't think authors like that should be used. As for source #4, that would belong in the article on Barleti, not here. --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

---

The original page numbers are indicated between square brackets.

  Special signs: 
     ξ = Albanian /th/, /dh/ 
     ɛ = /z/ 
     ɣ = vertical ou-ligature 

Tue passune dite, e perdite (te dascunitee mij mbassi hina nde College) cuituem me ghisc zoppe Libre chesce me ndimuem mbe gnaane ghiuhene tane, ghi po bdarete, e po bastastarξohete saa maa parete vè; e maa fort me ndimuem giξξe atɣne ghi iane ndurξenite tine ɛot, e te Scintesse Kisce Cattoliche, es dijne ghiuhene Latine, paa tessijet as cusc smune scerbegne si duhete, paa te maξ error, e sai, hesaapete, ɛakonete, e Ceremoniatee.I leave all word spacing as in the original edition.

Thank you (Faleminderit) “”Dodona--Burra (talk) for the Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum On the basis of the original edition Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum,its is so cool.It proves how old is the Albanian languange.Thank you again,AMAZED....--Taulant23 (talk) 03:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

to many maps!

I would recommend of taking the maps off,they just create more confusion than help. The one I like is the one that shows the city of Albanopoli and Albani people but I do have some pictures of Illyrian archictecture from the museum of Tirana,Albania.--Taulant23 (talk) 03:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the maps are informative and relevant to the article and therefore they should stay. I don't see how they possibly create "confusion". would you care to elaborate? --Tsourkpk (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The maps are great.They show the region in each era.Megistias (talk) 11:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

You also vandalised the page in the recent past and tried to remove the maps because they dont agree like all sources with your "theories".The finley map will be removed and replaced with a map showing illyricum.Megistias (talk) 11:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Albanian as Epiriotes 2

I ask your support to come to consensus for the following statement

This is my agreement taking in consideration both opinions:

According to sources dating back to the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, Scanderbeg's Albanians and Ali Pasha's kingdom were both associated with Epirus. Some of Modern scholarship, nevertheless, regards the associations between Albania and Epirus to be mainly geographical (regal in the case of Scanderbeg). However, Albanians today do not agree with this argument since they consider Epirus as part of their identity and the Albanian language as "Epirotic". But this is opposed by the Greeks because in the ancient Epirus existed the Pelasgic tribes of Selles, or Helles, and the Graiki, whose names were afterwards taken to denote the Hellenes, or Greeks; however both nation have claimed Pelasgic ancestry.. References :

1.’Pjeter Bogdani Cuneus ProphetarumCvnevs prophetarvm de Christo salvatore mvndi et eivs evangelica veritate, italice et epirotice contexta, et in duas partes diuisa a Petro Bogdano Macedone, Sacr. Congr. de Prop. Fide alvmno, Philosophiae & Sacrae Theologiae Doctore, olim Episcopo Scodrensi & Administratore Antibarensi, nunc vero Archiepiscopo Scvporvm ac totivs regni Serviae Administratore" (The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets)”Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005’’

2.’ ‘Albanians, a martial race, were unanimous to live and die with their hereditary prince" and that "in the assembly of the states of Epirus, Skanderbeg was elected general of the Turkish war and each of the allies engaged to furnish his respective proportion of men and money’’Source :Edward Gibbon, 1788, History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Volume 6, Scanderbeg section

3.Ali Pashe kingdom 1744-1822 who was prescribed by british poet Bajron in his poem Childe Harold Source : "Albania" A Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press, 2000. Oxford Reference Online.

4.Source :Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum On the basis of the original edition Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum, per R.D. Franciscum Blanchum, Romae: Typis Sac.Congr.de Propag. Fide. 1635 [[32]

5.Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark [33]

6. Reference : The Albanians (more of an ethnographic than a geographic term) are called Arnauts (Arnaoots, Arnaouts) by the other peoples of the Balkan peninsula; they give themselves the name of Skipetars or "mountaineers". They claim descent from the Epirots and Illyrians, and, like the latter, have always been distinguished by their warlike spirit Source: Albania Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [34]

7. Reference : Near it are the ruins of the temple of Dodona, the cradle of pagan civilization in Greece. This oracle uttered its prophecies by interpreting the rustling of oak branches; the fame of its priestesses drew votaries from all parts of Greece. In this neighbourhood also dwelt the Pelagic tribes of Selles, or Helles, and the Graiki, whose names were afterwards taken to denote the Hellenes, or Greeks.: Source: Albania.Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [35]

8. Reference : Emperor Diocletian, carried out an administrative reform in the Roman Empire by constituting prefectures, dioceses and provinces. In conformity with this reorganisation, the Albanian territory was divided into three provinces: Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. The latter two were part of the Macedonian diocese. The dioceses of Dacia and Macedonia were constituent parts of the prefecture of Illyricum, which comprised the entire Balkans. Source Albanian identity by Antonina Zhelyazkova 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA [36]

9. Reference :The ancient Epirus and Illyria, is the most western land occupied by the Turks in Europe. Its extreme length is about 290 miles, and its breadth from forty to ninety miles. On the west and southwest it is bounded by the Adriatic and the Ionian seas. It is generally divided into three regions: Upper Albania, from the Montenegrin frontier to the river Shkumbi; Lower Albania, or Epirus, from the Shkumbi to the Gulf of Arta; and Eastern Albania, to the east of the Schar-Dagh chain. Source: Albania Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York)[37]Dodona--Burra

First, this is completely irrelevant to the article on Albania. You might want to discuss this in Albanians. this article is about the country of Albania, not the Albanian people (not everyone who lives in Albania is Albanian). Second, your sources are way out of date. Edward Gibbons? from 1788? The Catholic Encyclopaedia? These are not reliable sources. You need modern, reputable scholars with a track record of publication in this field if you are to going to reach a consensus. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Why a second paragraph named Epiriotes 2? To add same stuff and some more? To make us repear ourselves so you wont have to answer the above?:Since this is a clear misnaming it has to be clarified and that Epirotes[38] were Greeks.Albanians appear in the 11th century AD(reference Anna Komnene, Alexiad 4.8.4) and later on in the general area and descend later on to reach the situation in Skenderbeg's time and the 15th to 17th century situation.Its a source of conflict and if it is clarified as anachronistic romanticism and mentioned than the addittion is ok by me.It has to be clear that "despite the fact that this association was seen by some authors as reflective of European romanticism over classical Greco-Roman civilization assuming that the use of the term Epirus mainly embodied both regal and geographical meanings but this thesis is not accepted by nationalist Albanian circles and some pseudo-historians like Edwin E. Jacques and Kollias, Aristidis .Albanians had no relationship with the region of Epirus till the 11th(reference Anna Komnene, Alexiad 4.8.4) century AD and later on.The region was inhabited by Greeks since early antiquity.The same attribution as Epirotic was given to Albanian language by some of earliest available Albanian writings though in the same anachronistic manner. "Epirus was Greece with Greeks as you see and Illyria Illyrian.Albanians appear at the 11 century Ad above Epidamnus.Megistias (talk) 21:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there any real source?

"The earliest known king of Illyria was Hyllus (English translation: "Star") who was recorded to have died in the year 1225 BC.[citation needed]" Is there any archeological evidence of this existing? 1225 bc? How is this documented?It should be all removed from wiki it seems to be hearsay.Megistias (talk) 10:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Albani

There was no city state albanopolis as the albani tribe appear in 130 ad under roman rule.And there is no such city in the 1849 map.Megistias (talk) 22:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Jacques and Kollias

Questionable sources
Questionable sources are

those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include

websites and publications that express views that are widely

acknowledged as extremist, are promotional in nature, or rely heavily

on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be

used in articles about themselves ... Articles about such sources

should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about

third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable

sources.

— Wikipedia:Verifiability#Questionable_sources (emphasis added

These pseudohistorians are not a source19:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

If you call ur own people pseudohistorians that I don't know what else can I think of you.--Taulant23 (talk) 20:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present (1995)

Edwin E. Jacques, The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present (1995), is a panoramic yet detailed and generally objective study of Albanian history, based on an impressive amount of source material.The book is a classic for presenting history based on facts. Many thanks to the author for putting such a bright light on historical facts, and the effort to collect all the information pieces that exist around the world and putting them in a fascinating logical way that creates a nice picture of what have happened thousands of years before, mainly in the ballkans, particulary in today's Albania, and all over the world.

Dr. Jaques appears to have done very thorough research on almost every phase of Albanian history. He seems to have spent a lifetime in gathering information from archives across the world. It is also obvious through reading the book that he has a firsthand knowledge of the language and people.

The author brings the science of history to a new paradigm. The book is written in an excellent way and is result of intensive and extensive experience from the author. He will keep receiving many thanks for his research and publishing work. The book confirms that History is a scientific field and not a dogmatic field. The book must be read by all. The book helps to find answers questions. Reading the book, one can crystally see that the Pelasgian language is the same as the present-day Albanian language. Moreover, it tells what brush paintings had been put on Pelasgian (Albanian) culture and language. If you are looking for more than a brief glance at the history of the Albanians or are interested in a particular area of Albanian history, this book seems to have it all.

Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!--Taulant23 (talk) 08:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Report me and stop spamming.Megistias (talk) 09:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The passages posted by Taulant are from anonymous reviews on Amazon. Besides being completely worthless as testimony to the status of the book as a reliable source, posting them may also qualify as a copyright violation. Taulant, please stop it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

"20% of Epirus"?

Re. Megistias' repeatedly inserted edit: "The Albanian state corresponds to a small part of the region of ancient Illyria and a small (20%) part of the ancient region of Epirus." – This sentence is at least ambiguous. Do you mean modern Albania comprises (as one of its parts) 20% of historical Epirus, or modern Albania (the whole of it) constitutes 20% of historical Epirus? It can only really be the former, right? We should have a map that shows the boundaries of the historical region in relation to the modern state borders, this is currently lacking even over at Epirus (region). Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

There is this one.

Map of Epirus in relation to Modern states

Megistias (talk) 10:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. This of course implies that the boundaries of historical Epirus have shifted considerably (the map currently at the top of the article again seems to show something different.) Which means the 20% figure becomes pretty shaky, doesn't it? What definition of historical Epirus did you use for it, and on the basis of what literature? If in doubt, leave it out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The 20% refers to ancient epirus not the later expansion ,the blue.Megistias (talk) 10:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

In that case, I think we should go without those percentages, they are not really particularly relevant to the article anyway, and there's no reason to favour one ancient shape of Epirus over the other. If you take as the basis the map of historical Epirus that's actually shown on our Epirus (region) article, the Albanian part is certainly more than 20%, right? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Reffering to the ancient Epirus its 20%Megistias (talk) 14:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

If you want to remove it from the top make sure there is no isninuation that albania is the same as ancient illyrian territories and add the 20% of classical epirus-Albania has a part of Ancient Greece- here at the end ."The Albanian state corresponds to different parts of the Roman provinces and their subdivisions such as Macedon, Epirus nova, Epirus vetus, Illyricum and Dalmatia. The areas these provinces would include changed through the centuries of Roman rule."Megistias (talk) 14:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

One think I know for sure,96% of North Epirus is Albanian.--Taulant23 (talk) 05:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Demographics of Albania

Ethnic composition of Albania
Albanians			96%
Greeks			3%
Aromanians			1.2%
Roma			0.4%
Other			2.3%

What you guys think? Are we gonna fight again?--Taulant23 (talk) 05:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that information can go in the article. BalkanFever 09:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The table is totally unsourced. As far as I know Taulant could be making these figures up. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Cia factbook World Factbook, 1994 says 3% and Defense Academy of the United Kingdom says that this is "although this is a highly contentious question".Also that numbers had been intentionally lowered since the communist regime ". However, the area studied was confined to the southern border fringes, and there is good reason to believe that this estimate was very low"."Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages

in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well."Megistias (talk) 19:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

But this number was 8% by the same agency a year before.Cia Megistias (talk) 19:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

So Albania and Greece have something in common :D BalkanFever 01:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

There are also some Serbs in Albania. Косовска Митровица (talk) 10:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah , like 0.001% , right? --Cradel 11:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Serbs in Albania?. I guess the declaration of independence of Kosovo has agreed a lot of Serbs.--Taulant23 (talk) 23:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC) p.s. the largest minority that we can really talk are Greeks.The rest is not even 1%.--Taulant23 (talk) 23:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo

should it be added on the map of Albania? --Leladax (talk) 15:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC) What you talking about? Kosovo, as a independet state has nothing to do with Albania's borders.--Taulant23 (talk) 23:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

He is asking whether it should be added to the map of Europe there, the current answer is no, but that will change if Kosovo is recognized fully. SovietCanuck (talk)

Of course it should. Kosovo independence was accepted (and initiated) by Albania as one of the key countries involved in the process. The map includes Kosovo in its article and it should be included here too. Bardhylius (talk) 11:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

This basically would state that Kosovo did not declare indepedence and that it was pretty much annexed by Albania... Which is basically what happened... How about putting that in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.5.83 (talk) 11:31, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Pyramid schemes

This statistic "In a short while, $2 billion (80% of the country's GDP) had been moved into the hands of just a few pyramid scheme owners." needs a reliable citation ( libcom.org is not sufficient as it doesn't cite a source for the figure ). If true, the figure is so shocking it might deserve a separate article which should provide the missing information about timelines, scheme details and owners.

Map needed

A good map is needed for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.150.167.51 (talk) 20:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Fate of Albanians during Roman rule

Reference “The fate of Albanian people and territories during Roman rule was that , they lived as free people but in social hierarchy they had a place between Romans civil right and slaves who had not right at all , the first mention with the name Albanoi or Arber was by Ptolemy of Alexandri 2nd c. A.D one of the free Illyrian tribes. The Illyrian military began to play important role in Roman life ,seven of Roman Emperors were Illyrians and they ruled in succession, the Illyrian Emperor Dioclean administrative reorganization Albanian territory in three provinces : Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. “ Source : Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanians identities .. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA 1999 [39]--Dodona (talk) 19:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Questionable sentence

Perhaps Im just making mountains out of molehills, but I am sligthly objected to the sentecne describing the holocaust making it sound if it was suprising that the Albanians sheltered Jews, rather than say killed them, simply because they were muslims:

' because it was Europe's only largely Muslim country'-i.e. thats what makes it suprising

The problem with this is two fold, although Im sure it wasnt an intentional thing, but this either makes muslims sound like they are as a group of people generally partial to genocide, something which I object to and I think would have t be sourced extensively. Or it is an ad hoc rationalisation of the presebt day, i.e. because of the arab-Israeli conflict many muslims are anti-israeli/Jew in the middle east, and therefore it is suprising that they would be one of the most active countries in protecting Jews. 1. If you are a muslim and you are agains Israel it dosent mean you support genocide, 2. TThis is looking at a past issue from the perspective of a modern world view, at the time Christianity rather than islam was the most anti-semitic affected religion that was involved in the second world war, and therefore it is not acctually that suprising that Albanians provided the most support in Europe, as it is made out to be, only with the rise of Israel has anti-semitism become more prevalent withing muslim communities. BTW I am a British Christian so I dont really have much invested in this except the truth, and Im sorry for making such a big deal out of this, but I think it could be done better.86.138.254.99 (talk) 02:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Muslim Albanians don't approve the extremist notions some other muslim groups support.Being among the only muslim europeans,surrounded by non-muslim nations,this outcome seems quite natural.Amenifus (talk) 11:31, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Anoter questionable sentence

"The tribes of southern Illyria, however, including modern Albania, averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue".

there's no evidence that albanian equals or is even derived from illyrian language. there's a few rather old (18 st) hypothesis being dismissed long time ago, wide used by albanian politicians. however, there's no linguistic confirmations to support such theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.249.152 (talk) 21:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The sentence is indeed sheer nationalist nonsense. The whole history section is a mess. I'm going to review it and propose improvements shortly. --Tsourkpk (talk) 00:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Well there are plenty evidences but I took that sentence off.I think--Taulant23 (talk) 07:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

new page

I took most of the POV down.Let's focus on a better article.--Taulant23 (talk) 07:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)