Talk:Aiyanar

Peer review

The Peer review is written taken into considering Good article criteria

• The article uses "Ayyanar" and "Aiyanar" alternatively. Stick to one spelling
• Add inline references
• File:AN4248.JPG needs a formal description on img page, also a formal information template saying who the creator is explicitly.

--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:24, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

• Harihara putra needs a separate article, he is not same Harihara, the combined form of Vishnu-Shiva. Harihara-putra as a Sanskrit compound (samaas) means "son of Vishnu and Hara" and has no relation to Harihara. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:15, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Very poor grammar

The grammar, especially in the "Worship" section, is far below acceptable levels for an encyclopedic or even casual read. Whole paragraphs are nearly unreadable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.7.208 (talk) 22:01, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Shasta (deity)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, given insufficient evidence of equivalence of Shasta (deity) and Aiyanar. Klbrain (talk) 21:32, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

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Shasta is the sanskritized form of Tamil சாத்தன் (Cāttaṉ). There are no any significant differences between Shasta and Aiyanar since their iconographies and myths are exactly the same. Even Ayyappan, the Keralite god, who is non other than one form (according to the faith 'avatar') of Aiyanar, can be merged with this page. But, he can also be categorized as an unique deity predominantly resides in Sabarimala. I recommend to merge Shasta (deity) with this page, Aiyanar. --5anan27 (talk) 08:00, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose Shasta is identified with various regional deities the Tamil Aiyanar, Ayyappa of Kerala and even Murugan. The iconography as well as the mythology of Aiyanar and Ayyappa is distinct.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Could you please explain with references in which aspects Aiyanar differs from Sashta and Aiyappan? Kindly note that all three wiki articles already have the proofs to conclude that Ayyappan, Aiyanar and Shasta (Dharmasashta) are synonyms of the same deity. Please google. It provides hundreds of temples of this deity with the substitutes Ayyanar, Ayyappan, Sastha, Dharmasastha and Aiyan. For your information,

1. "Sashta is called as Hariharaputra (Tamil Arikaraputtiraṉ), son of Mohini and Shiva. So does Aiyanar. Ayyappan is the avatar of Hariharaputra". - says Sabarimala Sthala Puranam and Tamil Kanda Puranam
2. All three deities are native to Southern India.
3. For the iconography, compare Pooranai, putkalai samedha Aiyanar of Tamil Nadu with Purna Pushkalamba sametha Dharmasastha of Kerala (look at the phrase "Swamiye Saranam ayyappa"), Dharmasashta of Kerala and a Sashta sculpture from Tamil Nadu
4. There is a probability that the deity Sashta could be borrowed from Buddhism. But there are no any chances to affiliate him with Murugan.

Please clarify. --5anan27 (talk) 08:38, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - The deities Shasta, Ayyapan and Aiyanar have different mythologies and are all notable in their own right. Unless there is a strong reference to link these 3 deities, this is WP:OR and has no chance of even a single mention in any of these articles. Most of the references you raised above are blogspots and references that are not reliable. King Prithviraj II (talk) 19:00, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - Rudra is often identified with Shiva, however each deity has separate articles. 2.51.18.247 (talk) 12:15, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• Clarify

So, is it enough to conclude WP:OR just by saying :"have different mythologies" and "blogspots and references are not reliable"? Yes. I selected comparable clear depictions from blogspots for specifying the similarities. Please argue with references. Don't ignore everything by just telling this is reliable and that is not reliable. And dear IP number 2.51.18.247, this discussion is on Shasta, Aiyanar and Ayyappan and nothing to do with either Shiva or Rudra. Separate wiki articles will never determine whether these deities are same or not.

Has no chance of even a single mention in any of these articles? Did you read them actually? Ok. Check these.
I. present Ayyappan article has this image of Aiyanar and following passage is extracted from the same article.:

“ Ayyappan, also known as ...Shasta or Dharma Shasta....the son of Shiva and Mohini......Other important temples are Kulathupuzha Sastha Temple, Aryankavu Sastha Temple, Achankovil Sree Dharmasastha Temple... ”

II. Following passage is extracted from current Aiyanar article:

“ Another name for the deity is Ayyānar-Śāstā or Śāstā. The Śāstā cult is particularly well developed in the state of Kerala....Dharma-Śāstā is used to describe Ayyappan. Śāstā also has a sanskritising legend that makes him the son of a union between Shiva and the female form of Vishnu. ”

III. And finally a part from Shasta:

“ ...Aiyanar is used as another name of the deity Shasta. The earliest reference to Aiynar-Shasta is from the Arcot district.... dated to the 3rd century C.E. They read "Ayanappa; a shrine to Cattan....Brahmanda Purana mentions Shasta as harihara suta or son of Siva and Narayana (Vishnu).... Legends indicate that Shasta is the son of a union between Shiva and the female form of Vishnu, namely Mohini. ”

IV. Shasta and Aiyappan pages had same images until I asked for a merging request. Check this version of Ayyappan and present Shasta page.
V. Huge number of edits appear from an IP number converting all sources which claim the similarities of Ayyappan with Aiyanar as well as Shasta.
VI. And there is a problem with blogspot references. No? Check wikimedia category of Aiyanar and category of Sashta. Please compare the iconographies.

I undid the deleted merging requests. Nothing urgent. We can discuss and come to a decision calmly. --5anan27 (talk) 08:59, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

@5anan27: I did state that unless stated by reliable sources, they do state there might once had a historical connection, but nothing too solid. Ayyappan is usually shown as celibate, except for a few exceptions with Purṇa and Pushkala, which again only suggests a historical relationship with Aiyanar. Ayyappan is specifically popular for his piligrimage to Sabarimala, one of the largest in the world. You should consider merging Dharmasasta into Ayyappan, they are the same. However, merging Ayyappan and Aiyanar is out of question, they are notable in different ways, Ayyappan for his piligrimage, Aiyanar as a village deity. Sastha is a generic term, meaning "Teacher." This term is also used to refer to the Buddha. While Dharma Sastha is Ayyappan, Brahma Sastha is Kartikeya, see [this https://books.google.com/books?id=0AevljBmCRQC&pg=PA244&lpg=PA244&dq=brahma+sastha+kartikeya&source=bl&ots=SwOcOBWCTK&sig=-65uxcviMqyjINWDcOApQ8NJeeQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM9IGPm4bWAhVLPxoKHYLlAkIQ6AEIfDAR#v=onepage&q=brahma%20sastha%20kartikeya&f=false]. Sastha is too generic a term to be merged with Aiyanar, Ayyappan is notable in his own right as a celibate deity. I agree merging Dharmasastha and Ayyappan, they are same. I hence rest my case. Note: Information in this message without references are directly taken from sources statements in the articles Ayyappan and Aiyanar. @Ms Sarah Welch and Redtigerxyz: your knowledge will be helpful here. King Prithviraj II (talk) 09:50, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Further, Ayyappan also has a Muslim friend, not present in Aiyanar or Sastha. King Prithviraj II (talk) 09:54, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Aiyanar is a village deity// Please add that Aiyanar is also an Agamic deity. Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka have hundreds of Aiyanar Temples where daily offerings are conducted according to agamic traditions, praising him "Shasta". For your comparison, I add South Indian goddess, Mariamman, who is simultaneously a folk deity and Agamic deity. I already indicated that Shasta is also the sanskritized form of Tamil Cāttaṉ, another name of Aiyanar.

Sastha is too generic a term to be merged with Aiyanar, Ayyappan, meaning "Teacher".// If the name "Shasta" is belongs to more than one deity, we should include this term (or move search term) into all respective articles. For example, Dharma Sasta to Ayyappan, Brahma Sasta to Murugan etc. Alright. Then, who is that Shasta (deity) titled here? About whom does the given details describes? Are we going to maintain a page which have the descriptions of Ayyappan, Buddha and Murugan who already have distinct articles in wiki? Or do we need a wiki article to tell the world "Shasta means Teacher"? Wiktionary is enough to do that. The explanation given below the title "Shasta (deity)" is obviously belongs to Aiyanar, The earliest reference to Aiyanar-Shasta, Literary references to Aiyanar-Cattan, Harihara suta of Brahmanda Purana, everything! (Please have a look again. Above given wikimedia categories clearly manifest their similarities.)

Ayyappan is notable for his piligrimage// I didn't propose to merge Ayyappan with either Aiyanar or Shasta. Since Ayyappan is considered as the "avatar" of Aiyanar, it is absolutely fine for me to maintain his article separately. My concern is on Shasta and Aiyanar.

Dear @King Prithviraj II: Including my previous replies, there are so many liturgical, historical, literary sources make clear who these three are. It is why I still couldn't get it what do you mean by //nothing too solid// and //Ayyappan ...except for a few exceptions with Purṇa and Pushkala...only suggests a historical relationship with Aiyanar// --5anan27 (talk) 16:16, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

@5anan27: All that may be fine, but please specify a reliable source which states Shasta and Aiyanar are synonyms, and that Shasta is exclusively used to refer to Aiyanar. Since you are making this claim, WP:BURDEN is on you to prove it. No original research, no blogspots, no Wikipedia or Wikimedia. We have reliable sources, as shown above, that say there might be a connection, but nothing solid, according to the source not how we interpret it. Since Shasta is a generic term, it cannot be merged with Aiyanar. It is identifiable with Buddha, Kartikeya, Ayyappan and a whole lot of deities. Shasta worship was prevelant in Kerala from 855 AD, with an entire sect (like Vaishnavism and Shaivism) dedicated to it, where Shasta was recognized as a different deity from Aiyanar. Shasta is an umbrella term. Heck, Aiyanar falls under Shasta and this would be a whole lot less controversial if it were merged into Shasta. Sanskrit words do have articles. Have a look at Simran, Sat (Sanskrit) etc. I repeat it, Shasta is too generic. If you feel that Shasta should be deleted, consider going to WP:AFD, not here. King Prithviraj II (talk) 20:33, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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