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Talk:7 July 2005 London bombings/Archive 1

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Early comments

Leaving all things aside, I need to say this is shocking, just shocking. Also, I and my family feel eerily de-sensitised to the idea of a terrorist-like act. Harro5 July 7, 2005 09:59 (UTC)

If you're having issues accessing BBC website, try visiting http://newswww1.thny.bbc.co.uk/ Adders 7 July 2005 10:47 (UTC)

Fox news reported at 3AM here (GMT-8) that 90 casualties have been reported. - Serialized

could we please not fall for exageration? The city of london is NOT being evacuated. corrected the text Adidas 7 July 2005 10:03 (UTC)

  • Good job to everybody who worked on this article and... I'll let rumours slide ;) --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 10:05 (UTC)


is this helpful??

I'm safe. Its chaos over here and I'm sh***ing myself. The bombs are 

     really close, oxford street has been closed down and there are still
   bombs planted everywhere waiting to go off. If ed and di can get out of
    the central london bit, tell them to just stay away and away from any
    form of transport. The hospital is chaos and we have been put on high
    alert. Its nuts, but we are safe, apart from the fact I have just s**t
   myself, and I serioulsy mean it. We aren't going to be able to get home
   tongith because we've been told there are bombs everywhere. I'm scared,
                      but I'm sure it will all be okay.

Source unknown...

Metropolitan Line

It seems that the blasts happened inside the tunnels of the Metropolitan Line (between the stations of Liverpool Street and Aldgate East). This would create a fireball that would spread through stations. --Pinnecco 7 July 2005 10:04 (UTC)


There's certainly no evidence of a "fireball", I don't think the explosions were large enough to cause that sort of thing. There's been reports from eye witnesses on BBC News of explosions in the carridge next to theirs and large quantities of smoke which cleared in about 10 minutes. When walking down the tracks the eye witnesses reported seeing heavy damage to the train with the metal all bent outwards, but thankfully no fire. Same story with the bus (which we can probably assume was the same explosive). That could've been a lot worse, think of the bus bombings in Israel.

Advance warning

According to Israeli radio, a man arrived at the Scotland Yard this morning and gave a detailed description of the attacks planned. The alert was forwarded to embassies, and the Israeli one was locked down prior to the explosions.

Contact Number??

Anyone finds one, please add it. Rich Farmbrough 7 July 2005 10:04 (UTC)

9-9-9 --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 10:07 (UTC)
Police have asked people not to distract the emergency services.--Henrygb 7 July 2005 10:33 (UTC)
Indeed, usually a number is issued in major incidents, this is what I meant. Rich Farmbrough 7 July 2005 10:42 (UTC)
As far as I know one hasn't been issued yet. The BBC and ITV news stations are asking people to contact them for reports if they're involved in the incident, but that's it. Emergency services should only be contacted 'if your life is in danger'. --Psyk0 7 July 2005 10:45 (UTC)
One has not been issued yet. Radio Five Live said at about 1145 that one was expected in about 30 minutes. -- Arwel 7 July 2005 11:30 (UTC)
The hotline number listed here is different than the one wikinews and some external websites are listing (+44 (0) 20 8358 0101). Can someone check? Janet13

Stock Exchange

The London Stock Exchange in London have not been evacuated (at least, so far). I work there and all my colleagues are there. --Pinnecco 7 July 2005 10:06 (UTC)

Good Sources

BBC Radio 4, Radio 5 live and BBC News 24 are giving almost continuous coverage. --KharBevNor 7 July 2005 10:10 (UTC)

BBC 1 is simulcasting News 24 coverage too. Tjwood 7 July 2005 10:45 (UTC)

Oh Gnoes

Sorry. Just had to say that. -- Kizor 7 July 2005 10:12 (UTC)

I second that, and it's 2:13 AM here. --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 10:13 (UTC)
Thirded. --Psyk0 7 July 2005 10:19 (UTC)

the pix

is the pix of the person stuck underground real? the source indicates it might be fake. not funny if it is Adidas 7 July 2005 10:16 (UTC)

Seems genuine --KharBevNor 7 July 2005 10:18 (UTC)
probably is - sky news is broadcasting it now. there is a video on the french tv channel lci.fr which looks similar.

Spain.

Any confimation of this? Rich Farmbrough 7 July 2005 10:14 (UTC)

spain info seems fake Adidas 7 July 2005 10:15 (UTC)

  • I suspect the intent is to draw parallels with the Madrid attack, rather than a direct report - another version of the mention was overwritten in the editing scrum. -- Michael Warren | Talk July 7, 2005 10:17 (UTC)
    • Reuters is of course down, but other news sources are saying nothing of the sort. Probably should be considered a badly formatted parallel to the attack, already removed. -- Kizor 7 July 2005 10:20 (UTC)

I removed the Spain comment as it was stated, because that information is unconfirmed. User:Serialized

Conspiracy theory?

It all seems a bit too neat, y'know? Tuesday: Paris loses the olympic bid, London win. Paris are understandably angry. Prime Minister is in Scotland. Wednesday: London transport network struck with explosions. Entire city is in disarray.

Coincidence? --Psyk0 7 July 2005 10:18 (UTC)

Slow down, cowboy. I don't know, but I'd say that somebody ain't happy about the London bid win. --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 10:20 (UTC)
Please don't speculate. It's unhelpful. It also makes you look like a goose. It's like those ridiculous conspiracy theories over Dianna. After all, we all know that Princess Di didn't actually die. She was abducted by aliens I tell you! - Ta bu shi da yu 7 July 2005 10:21 (UTC)
I thought it was Prince Philip, the CIA, the FBI, the AA, the NHS, the Girl Scouts and the Japanese whaling beareau what did it? --KharBevNor 7 July 2005 10:25 (UTC)

Are you saying you think France orchestrated the bombings?!?!

Please stop blaming France of all (They're eaven guilty creating Godzilla) THERE'S NO WAY THAT FACT CAN BE RELATED TO OLYMPIC COMITEE DESITION... You canot plan a terrorist attack so perfect in less than 24 hours Qsebas 7 July 2005 13:08 (UTC)

Tony Blair to make a statement on Midday

Can someone make notes of relevant comments and add them to the article please? - Ta bu shi da yu 7 July 2005 10:18 (UTC)

Terrorist attack?

Please hold off on this comment. It might be, but we just don't know for sure as yet. - Ta bu shi da yu 7 July 2005 10:19 (UTC)

There seems to be way too much evidence toward an attack. --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 10:21 (UTC)
Don't disagree... it seems that way. However, Wikipedia does not run on speculation. That would be original research. I realise your concern, let's just cool it here. We must give an objective article that conforms to our principles. - Ta bu shi da yu 7 July 2005 10:26 (UTC)
Right, I thought we were simply stating what the pundits are suggesting. --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 10:48 (UTC)
I think it's pretty obvious and accepted that it is now. the wub "?/!" 7 July 2005 10:24 (UTC)
Provide a source. - Ta bu shi da yu 7 July 2005 10:26 (UTC)
I can provide one to the contrary: ITV News just said that "it is too early to confirm whether the event is linked to terrorism." --Psyk0 7 July 2005 10:29 (UTC)
As a matter of fact I can now provide a source for the terrorist cause- BBC TV news, 'Arab reporters have stated that the event is almost certainly linked to Al Quaieda.' --Psyk0 7 July 2005 10:33 (UTC)

Timeline.

Would a timeline be useful? Rich Farmbrough 7 July 2005 10:24 (UTC)

Don't we have one? - Ta bu shi da yu 7 July 2005 10:27 (UTC)
We could use a better one. The BBC one is okay. Also we should probably fix the time format.

Pictures?

Why no pictures, Pigsonthewing? --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 10:25 (UTC)

I see, nevermind. --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 10:29 (UTC)

Fatalities

Where did the 20 fatalities figure come from? Glad it's only 2! Rich Farmbrough 7 July 2005 10:25 (UTC)

BBC and ITV news have both stated 90 casualties and 20 deaths. --Psyk0 7 July 2005 10:31 (UTC)

BE SAFE UK Wikipedians

I'm sure I speak for all Wikipedians - but keep safe, UK and London Wikipedians. You're in our thoughts today. Fuzheado | Talk 7 July 2005 10:26 (UTC)

Second this comment. Our thoughts are with you. Even tonight, here in Australia. - Ta bu shi da yu 7 July 2005 10:27 (UTC)
We lived with decades of the IRA were not fazed. --ElvisFromUncyc 7 July 2005 11:24 (UTC)
All the more reason to take caution. Can't get too complacentCnwb 7 July 2005 11:33 (UTC)
Speak for yourself. --Psyk0 7 July 2005 11:34 (UTC)
I'd personally say it takes alot to phaze the British public these days, we have planned for this and we are dealing with it. ;) --Nidonocu 7 July 2005 11:39 (UTC)
I'll go with that. It's not good but it's a few explosions and some sad losses of life. It doesn't compare to 911 and London has been through the Blitz. I'm at my desk, work as usual. Went through Kings X at about 9.30 on the Thameslink and most people at that stage were worried about tardiness. Your thoughts are appreciated but we'll pick ourselves up damn quick. Stiff upper lip and all that!
I am speaking for myself and an office full of people. --ElvisFromUncyc 7 July 2005 11:44 (UTC)
elvis I find your message very offensive - to the contrary people in my office are very shocked and saddened by this horrible event. That you don't seem to care about anything but the tardiness of your train reflects tragically on british society Adidas 7 July 2005 13:16 (UTC)
Er what train, I drove to work today and I'll drive home, I have no plans on using a train until maybe christmas, maybe......... I think you may be mistaking me for someone else...... Also shocked and saddened != fazed --ElvisFromUncyc 7 July 2005 13:30 (UTC)
Sorry elvis, I was referring to the comment above yours - i guess wikipedia layout sometimes isn't clear enough Adidas 7 July 2005 13:51 (UTC)
NP, I've fixed the indenting to make it clearer (although there is a danger we will soon run out of page width :-) --ElvisFromUncyc 7 July 2005 14:10 (UTC)

Stock prices

Does somebody want to either provide a source for, or remove the stock prices link?

I saw it on BBC.co.uk, before it jammed. -- Kizor 7 July 2005 10:29 (UTC)
I've seen it on numerous news websites- Google News provides many sources. --Psyk0 7 July 2005 10:30 (UTC)
I can't update the page for some reason to add a source. --Andypoo 7 July 2005 10:32 (UTC)

From BBC (Henrygb 7 July 2005 10:39 (UTC)): 

THE MARKETS 11:36 UK 
      
FTSE 100     5063.0    -166.60  
Dax          4477.2    -138.32  
Cac 40       4135.1    -144.90  
Dow Jones   10270.7    -101.12  
Nasdaq       2068.7    -10.10  
S&P 500      1194.9    -10.05  
BBCGlobal30  5334.5    -11.80

For how long?

At what point will we know how long the tube closure is going to last? I'm meant to be travelling to Colchester on Saturday, and my route includes a tube change. What's the likelihood that I'm going to have to replan my route? -- Smjg 7 July 2005 10:30 (UTC)

I'm not sure getting you to Colchester's a priority for the London Underground. Try calling National Rail Enquiries this evening once more is knows; they may be able to supply you with a route around London. Proto t c 7 July 2005 10:42 (UTC)

Depends. I assume they'll resume services as soon as they can - the show must go on and everything - but the damaged subway trains are not only out of the people, but must have caused a great deal of debris and likely damage to the rails and the like. As nobody wants a tube accident right after that they should be really really careful about checking that. This is just off the top of my head. --Kizor 7 July 2005 10:44 (UTC)

Jesus Christ, the attack just happened. Who knows/cares if you'll be delayed? Descendall 7 July 2005 10:43 (UTC)
As much as it maybe effecting you and others, please do not criticize other users, they could quite possibly have family that were involved, and their travel plans are important to them. Thanks. <>Who?¿? 7 July 2005 12:01 (UTC)

Aldgate

According to BBC it's Aldgate East station, not Aldgat. That makes "all other stations" to be on the Hammersmith and City line, not the Circle Line. -- user:miguel

Umm... I saw BBC footage of the Tube-station entrance, and it was definitely Aldgate

Watch casualty figures

BBC Radio 4 just reported six busloads of wounded being taken into the hospital under police escort. That's way more than 90 if they were anywhere near full. --KharBevNor 7 July 2005 10:31 (UTC)

Consider that people would probably be lying down on said buses. --Psyk0 7 July 2005 10:39 (UTC)
They also mentioned a bus on 5 Live earlier that had less than a dozen people arriving at hospital. the wub "?/!" 7 July 2005 10:41 (UTC)

Amount of Explosions?

Everything on the page is saying 6, although it also shows 6 underground and 3 on buses. -- Apsmif101 -- 21:02 - 7 November, 2024

I'm hearing only one bus explosion confirmed. --KharBevNor 7 July 2005 10:41 (UTC)


6 Underground (confirmed), 1 Bus (confirmed) -- User:markit

It seems the latest is 4 explosions, the idea of more explosions was created by casualties coming out of more than one station.


Just heard on TV that the Home Secretary is saying at least 6 explosions. TomH 7 July 2005 12:35 (UTC) 7 July 2005 12:30 UTC

Stop duplicating the article

The edit conflict is shredding this puppy. Please be patient people! --KharBevNor 7 July 2005 10:34 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this, but editing single sections instead of the whole page at once could help avoid edit conflicts. --Kizor 7 July 2005 10:39 (UTC)

Al Qaeda

Yes, the BBC did report that they had heard from Arab sources that this could be the work of Al Qaeda - though they're arguably jumping the gun a bit. Evercat 7 July 2005 10:38 (UTC)

ABC TV in Australia just reported it too. Cnwb 7 July 2005 11:20 (UTC)
N24 TV in Germany reported it as well. Jamyskis Whisper, Contribs 7 July 2005 12:19 (UTC)

Wikinews

Maybe people should go and help updating wikinews, rather than wikipedia ... Proto t c 7 July 2005 10:40 (UTC)

Well I'm uneable to access Wikinews, the server seems to be down. Most likely could not cope with the sudden spike in trafic. --Sherool 7 July 2005 11:24 (UTC)

Why shouldn't this article be given live status instead of current? DarthVader 7 July 2005 11:42 (UTC)

Please edit a section not the whole article if possible.

Rich Farmbrough 7 July 2005 10:40 (UTC)

It's possible that section editing is causing the duplication we're seeing though - there used to be a bug in this and it looks like it might have come back... Evercat 7 July 2005 10:44 (UTC)
I think it is - edit a section - get a conflict and you're offered the whole article. Rich Farmbrough 7 July 2005 10:52 (UTC)

Tourist/Transit bus

Which was it? If it was a tourist bus it may not have had a roof to start with.Rich Farmbrough 7 July 2005 10:44 (UTC)

BBC News states that it was a tourist bus, but in this case this means a standard transit bus that has been used for sightseeing tours - it was a standard double decker. In addition, the roof is visible in camera shots. -- Michael Warren | Talk July 7, 2005 10:45 (UTC)
Sky have shown a picture of the bus which clearly shows the roof on the road in front of the bus, and the upper deck side panels virtualy peeled and bent forward. I wouldn't like to have been on the top deck of that bus, poor devils. -- Arwel 7 July 2005 11:41 (UTC)

Well done

Our coverage is running well ahead of the BBC website. Another triumph for the webosphere. Adam 7 July 2005 10:46 (UTC)

We're also producing erroneous reports- only 6 explosions have been confirmed according to BBC News, but the site has stated 10. Confirm your sources, guys. --Psyk0 7 July 2005 10:48 (UTC)

please someone fix the duplicate sections -- user:miguel

They have been fixed. Y'know what would make a nice gesture? A new form of barnstar or other form of WikiThanks, either for help on this particular incident or on this and other similar ones in the future (*shudder*). -- Kizor 7 July 2005 11:14 (UTC)

Prince William is touring New Zealand will he be recalled?

One thing to watch is whether Prince William and/or Alastair Campbell (Tony Blair's spin doctor) are going to return early from New Zealand. I expect a decision will be made tomorrow NZ time (this evening UK time). Ben Arnold 7 July 2005 10:55 (UTC)

Category

Let's not put this article in the Terrorist incidents catgory yet. We still need undeniable confirmation. --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 10:50 (UTC)

How about a statement from the Prime Minister? --Psyk0 7 July 2005 11:20 (UTC)
It looks like we're coming to a conclusion about this; if the category link still exists, I won't remove it anymore. --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 11:23 (UTC)

Main page: 'probable terrorist attack'

Anyone else think that this heading on the Wikipedia main page is somewhat misleading? What with no official report and all. --Psyk0 7 July 2005 10:58 (UTC)

I dunno, there's a grey line where speculation ceases to be such and becomes stating the obvious — PhilHibbs | talk
BBC TV News reported about 1/2 hour ago that police had found traces of explosives. Blair just said "almost certainly" - though of course he probably knows no more than us at this time. --Taejo 7 July 2005 14:12 (UTC)

contacting friends / families etc.

Does anyone know of a coordinated attempt to get word of people who are safe to their friends and relatives - something similar to what was used during the tsunami etc. ? -- User:Jdowland

There's two people confirmed dead, not two hundred and fifty thousand confirmed dead ... not quite the same scale. Proto t c 7 July 2005 11:59 (UTC)
I'm not drawing comparisons with the events, merely the system used to reassure people. Those 2 dead could be anybody's friend or family member they haven't heard from. Let alone those who are injured and the unconfirmed dead. The system used during the tsunami was supposed to be an enormous success and re-assured a great number of people. The same principle could be applied to this and other events. -- Jdowland

Main Page headline

The main page says this is a 'major terroist attack'. Is this really any bigger than any of the IRA bombings? This is relativly small compared to other recent attacks such as Madrid. --Nidonocu 7 July 2005 11:15 (UTC)

It's horribly misleading and needs a change. --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 11:16 (UTC)

How do you judge major, minor, etc.? Most of the ways I can think of involve solid information that we just don't have yet. -- Jdowland

Quite, but we can agree that this is on a considerably smaller scale than, say, 9/11. I say cut out the "major". --Kizor 7 July 2005 11:20 (UTC)
By the looks of it, 'major terrorist attack' is a direct quote. See the article. --Psyk0 7 July 2005 11:21 (UTC)
I'd say you can judge by the servarity quite easily if its major from the volume of casualities, explosive size, etc. Either way, to judge its size right now proberly is incorrect and to call it major is just plain wrong. Nice to say Main page is updated though. --Nidonocu 7 July 2005 11:22 (UTC)
"Major terrorist attack" is a direct quote from the Metropolitan Police Commissioner on television a short time ago. If anyone should have an idea of what constitutes a major attack, I'd think he should! -- ChrisO 7 July 2005 11:25 (UTC)
Its all to do with how you relate it to other attacks. Compared to say 9/11 this is small, compared to the old IRA bombings, its a little bigger. Eitherway, the current headline is fine as it carries the fact and not any opinion. --Nidonocu 7 July 2005 11:32 (UTC)
Compared to the bombings being carried out by the nutters in Iraq at the moment, it's minor. It's also a far smaller incident than the one in Madrid last year. The terrorists (whomever they may be) are either rubbish, or they've gone for disruption rather than casualties. Unless it's all to distract everyone whilst the big attack happens. Dum dum DUM! Proto t c 7 July 2005 12:02 (UTC)

New section for transport/infrastructure status?

EG. all tube down, Gatwick express down, national express buses not going into london, no zone1 buses etc- hopefully later more info about other train services etc Gmcgreevy 7 July 2005 12:14 (UTC)

"BBC reports a Europe-based terrorist group related to Al Qaeda has claimed responsibility for the attacks in a 200-word message on their website" Anyone got a link? 60.234.144.135 7 July 2005 11:19 (UTC)

If this is true, then it is correct to list it on the Main Page so. --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 11:21 (UTC)

https://www.qal3ah.org/vb/index.php?/vb < the link leodalord
I believe it to be irrelevant as to whether there is a link or not. The BBC reported it at that time and therefore it should be included in the timeline. DarthVader 7 July 2005 12:04 (UTC)

No link, but it was mentioned on BBC News 24. Apparently the BBC (and presumably the govt) are currently looking into the authenticity. the wub "?/!" 7 July 2005 11:24 (UTC)

It is a "Latest" banner on the BBC news website but as yet it just links back to the News Front Page. Andreww 7 July 2005 11:26 (UTC)

this is supposed to be the letter, can we have a translation? [1] --Markit 7 July 2005 11:27 (UTC)

The claim is attributed to something called "Secret organisation - Al Qaeda in Europe". It appeared on the "al-Qala'a" internet forum, which apparently has been a source for genuine claims in the past. The letter also warns other governments involved in Iraq, mentioning specifically Denmark and Italy, warning governments to leave Iraq and Afghanistan. Rd232 7 July 2005 11:46 (UTC)

BBC just announced 'no claims'. Isn't that directly contradicting the website claim announcement? --Eiphel 7 July 2005 11:37 (UTC)

There is a screenshot on the graphics page.

Effects of G-8 Confrence

Any word as yet on how this might affect the G-8, less "We owe them nothing" </paraphrase> from Bush on climate change and/or Africa?--ElvisFromUncyc 7 July 2005 11:29 (UTC)

--> especially since Blair was going to be the main leader pushing for change in Africa...

Blair will leave the summit in progress today to London but return this evening; the aim is that the summit will not be disrupted (as is no doubt the aim of the attackers). Tjwood 7 July 2005 11:55 (UTC)

Contact numbers

Perhaps this could be moved to a seperate page - it wouldn't take up space here and we could re-use it in future whenever there's some major event. Evercat 7 July 2005 11:30 (UTC)

They're rather compact at the moment. Should they pass, say, a dozen, then that'd likely be a good idea. Leave the English one on the page, though. --Kizor 7 July 2005 11:36 (UTC)

Clarke Statement

Has Charles Clarke given his statement yet? --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 11:30 (UTC)

It's been put back to 12:50 BST -- Michael Warren | Talk July 7, 2005 11:34 (UTC)
Thanks. --Merovingian (t) (c) July 7, 2005 11:35 (UTC)

Airports?

Has there been any reports on whether airports are operational? I have a friend who is supposed to be flying in, in a few days.

No word on them not being operational, so I'd assume they're fine. --Psyk0 7 July 2005 11:32 (UTC)
Gatwick Express is halted for now, flights are still currently running I believe. --Nidonocu 7 July 2005 11:33 (UTC)
The radio just mentioned that, I think they are staying open. Your friend should have no trouble.-- Kizor 7 July 2005 11:35 (UTC)
Everyone in the Irish Civil Service has been sent an E-Mail telling them to postpone any plane journeys to London, and if they are making a connection in London to re-schedule it.

"WE STRONGLY ADVISE THAT, all Customers planning to FLY TO OR VIA LONDON, To either A. Postpone their trip if LONDON is their Final Destination B. IF FLYING VIA ANY LONDON AIRPORT, TO CONTACT YOUR TRAVEL CONSULTANT TO MAKE ALTERNATIVE FLIGHT ARRANGEMENTS"--Irishpunktom\talk July 7, 2005 13:53 (UTC)

911 horoscope

A huge post containing two large horoscopes was posted here by TracyRenee. It was removed by two others for being cumbersome and largely irrelevant, but in an attempt to not seem too mean I've stuck it here, where it's viewable. -- Kizor 7 July 2005 11:51 (UTC)

When comparing the two events, one thing that is of interest to the two charts is the first impact on 7 July 2005 occured at 8:49 while the first impact on 11 September 2001 occured at 8:43.

I fail to see the relevance. While I sympathise with what sounds like bullying this is not the time or place to bring up old arguments--Darxide 7 July 2005 11:43 (UTC)

That's because just before 9 am is the busiest time of day for commuters in major cities. Nothing more. Proto t c 7 July 2005 12:00 (UTC)

I personally think that what happened with the Twin Towers is very relevant to what happened today. I also think that what has happened the last two days in Wikipedia with regard to the terrorist attack in the Twin Towersis quite significant because there was a lot of psychic energy flowing, even if some people do not want to admit it. --TracyRenee 7 July 2005 12:23 (UTC)

Then start a page linking the bombings together and explaining the intricacies of the astrological connection. I for one would be most interested in reading such a page. When I'm on this page however I want to know what happened with the explosions in London. I'm sure you agree that such streamlining is best. --Darxide 7 July 2005 13:05 (UTC)

It will just get voted for deletion under Wikipedia:No original research. Proto t c 7 July 2005 13:23 (UTC)
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