Talk:Next Singaporean general election

Singular or plural

There seems to be an editor who insists on using plural phrasing ("elections") when referring to a singular term ("general election"), anybody else have thoughts on this?

With reference to articles on the ongoing 2022 malaysian general election and the next uk general election that use singular, not to mention the Singaporean Constitution that refers to general election in the singular and wikipedia's own guidance on naming conventions WP:NCGAL, my view is that it should be singular for the aforesaid reasons. Bcmh (talk) 10:22, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Welcome back from your block for socking (and lying about socking). Plural is common usage, hence its wide use across Wikipedia. Cherrypicking a couple of elections that use the singular is not really demonstrating anything. Looking at the most recent elections around the world, 2022 Latvian parliamentary election, 2022 Bosnian general election, 2022 Brazilian general election, 2022 Bulgarian parliamentary election, 2022 Lesotho general election, 2022 Israeli legislative election, 2022 Danish general election, 2022 Slovenian presidential election, 2022 Vanuatuan general election and 2022 Bahraini general election all use the plural form. WP:NCGAL is an article naming convention and nothing to do with prose in an article. Number 57 22:46, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Cherry-picking a couple of articles that were edited by the same person who speaks in favour of using plural phrasing for a singular event does not seem to demonstrate anything.

The only debate here is regarding the wrong usage of plural phrasing to refer to a singular event and singular entity.

Also, seems like a slippery slope to assert that article naming conventions have nothing to do with the lead paragraph.

Wonder if any other apparently native English speaker would agree with using plural for something singular.

My view is that this article should refer to the event of a singular general election with singular words regardless of whether in the article name, lead paragraph or "prose in an article".

Happy to bring this issue to an appropriate dispute forum or any regulator for apparently native English speakers for adjudication. Bcmh (talk) 03:58, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I was not cherrypicking though; I simply listed every election from 2022 national electoral calendar#October (and November to date), all of which use the plural.

And again, the plural is not "wrong". Either the singular or plural can be used. I've had these painful discussions a few times, such as here. Number 57 13:04, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Listing articles that you edited in your favour does not carry much weight to your assertion about using plural to refer to singular. Surely if somebody else edited every election article with singular phrasing, it would not likely suddenly cause you to have an epiphany and agree with that editor right?

The talk page that you linked does not help either because quoting media articles that contain wrong phrasing does not make it correct to use plural to refer to singular because I have quoted sources with singular phrasing before and I don't remember you giving those any weight.

Also, I am quite shocked to hear a native English speaker say that "either the singular or plural can be used". What's the usefulness of such a distinction between singular and plural then? As I have already explained painfully as well, "elections" can refer to multiple events across multiple years or even within a single year, such as in 1974 when the UK had two separate general elections with the first in Feb and the second in Oct, but when referring to the held in Feb, it is correctly referred to as the February 1974 general election.

Unfortunately, no matter how many times you have had a similarly "painful" discussion, it does not change the fact that the Singapore Constitution and any related statutory and regulatory text refer to general election as a singular event and even wikipedia's own naming convention which you brought to my attention, agrees that an election to the same body or to the same office is correctly referred to as a singular event.

Therefore, I continue to respectfully dissent with your usage of plural phrasing to refer to a singular event and I note that there is no such thing as "standard wording" whether demonstrated by yourself on talk pages or by media articles with wrong phrasing. The standard should originate from a source that neither you nor I can edit, and that would be legislative text or wikipedia's naming convention. Bcmh (talk) 02:19, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Source for singular phrasing: "There shall be a general election at such time, within 3 months after every dissolution of Parliament...", article 66 of the Constitution of the Republic of Singapore (Emphasis added) Bcmh (talk) 02:34, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

This is how 2022 Latvian parliamentary election looked before I edited it; this is how the Bosnian one looked. Same for the Brazilian one, Lesotho one etc. I did not introduce the plural to these articles.

And again, official sources carry no more weight here than other sources. You are welcome to "respectfully dissent", but you cannot continue to edit war. You have already been blocked once for this nonsense. I would suggest you stop and gain consensus for your edits before repeatedly forcing them on articles. Number 57 09:05, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

For the record and as promised in my user talk page, my edit summary on the revision to this article on 10:22, 28 November 2022 stated that a user known as Number 57 changed the phrasing of the lead paragraph on 04:30, 3 April 2021; that was an error and ought to be 01:29 UTC/09:29 SST, 9 January 2021.

Prior to the revision made by the user known as Number 57 at 01:29 UTC/09:29 SST, 9 January 2021, the stable version of the lead paragraph started with "The next Singaporean general election will be held in ... " which was then changed without consensus by the user known as Number 57 to "General elections are scheduled to be held in ... "

This will be the basis and record for dispute resolution when appropriate. Bcmh (talk) 17:24, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Are you seriously arguing that four days (or just three if you discount the days it was in draftspace) counts as stable? Number 57 17:54, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Are you seriously avoiding the fact that you changed the lead paragraph unilaterally and without consensus? Bcmh (talk) 08:08, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you not know how Wikipedia works? Editors are free to make edits as they see fit (within policy) per WP:BEBOLD. I made that edit to bring it in line with other election articles, and it was unchallenged, and subsequently became the stable version. Number 57 18:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

For general reference, the user known as Number 57 changed lead paragraphs from singular to plural phrasing (except in the 2001 article) without consensus and from the article's respective "stable" versions of more than four days in:

2020 Singaporean general election,

2015 Singaporean general election,

2011 Singaporean general election,

2006 Singaporean general election,

2001 Singaporean general election,

1997 Singaporean general election,

1991 Singaporean general election article was created by user known as Number 57 with the wrong plural phrasing,

1988 Singaporean general election article was created by user known as Number 57 with the wrong plural phrasing,

1984 Singaporean general election article was created by user known as Number 57 with the wrong plural phrasing,

1980 Singaporean general election article was created by user known as Number 57 with the wrong plural phrasing,

1976 Singaporean general election,

1972 Singaporean general election article was created by user known as Number 57 with the wrong plural phrasing,

1968 Singaporean general election,

1963 Singaporean general election,

1959 Singaporean general election,

1955 Singaporean general election,

1951 Singaporean general election,

1948 Singaporean general election. Bcmh (talk) 01:24, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I noticed that you didn't use diffs above, and it seems it is to hide the fact that in several cases I didn't change it from singular to plural. For example this is how the 1955 article looked before I edited it. And it had used the plural from the start (this is the first revision in 2008). Others that used the plural from the start include 1948, 1951, 1963 and 1976. Number 57 09:26, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Is the above what "dubious debating" and "wikilawyering" looks like? lol you really threw me into stitches with your "strong opposition"

Tbh, it's getting pretty tiring but it seems like neither of us is willing to compromise so we'll just keep doing what we need to do I guess, I do not see anymore profit in attempting to negotiate with you, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Bcmh (talk) 10:08, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

RfC about whether singular or plural phrasing should be used

Should singular or plural phrasing be used to refer to a single general election after each dissolution of parliament? Bcmh (talk) 10:21, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• Plural for the reasoning set out above (common usage). Number 57 10:53, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• Singular for the reasons outlined above and the fact that Singapore's own elections department uses singular: 2020 PARLIAMENTARY GENERAL ELECTION RESULTS, Singapore's national broadsheet: When will the Singapore general election be called? It could be soon after Budget and the Constitution: There shall be a general election at such time, within 3 months after every dissolution of Parliament Bcmh (talk) 18:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
  • The Straits Times also uses the plural, as can be seen in these articles: "Malaysia Airlines will be offering 20 per cent discounted fares to facilitate voter movement for the 15th General Elections set for Nov 19.", "General elections are also due to take place in the first half of 2024.", "The ringgit may face some weakness amid the uncertainty ahead of the general elections, according to Qi Gao, FX strategist at Scotiabank in Singapore.", "BN chairman Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said that that the general elections should not be delayed as more issues could crop up in the future." etc, as does the elections department.[1][2][3] Number 57 18:44, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• Plural, while this is tough and I'm sure you could get away with using either, proper English is plural. Since Singapore uses a parliamentary system, when one legislative class is dissolved, a separate election is held simultaneously in every parliamentary constituency. These are "general elections" as opposed to "midterm elections" or a "presidential *election"-where only a single electoral contest takes place. Confusion is stoked because the incoming Parliament then holds a single election to choose the country's next Prime Minister. People, including the media will often confuse or equate this single election with the preceding general elections. OgamD218 (talk) 20:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you @OgamD218 for your input and the chance to address two misconceptions:

  First, while it's true that separate elections are held simultaneously in every constituency during a single general election, I am referring to the collective and singular event that is still referred to as a single general election, yes these are parliamentary elections but this does not affect the collective and singular reference to an article about a single general election. General elections only refer to multiple occurrences of simultaneously held parliamentary elections across multiple dissolutions of parliament whereas when referring to a single event, it should only be referred to in the singular, "general election".

  Secondly, in Singapore, similar to the United Kingdom, Malaysia, Australia and New Zealand, the Prime Minister is appointed by the Head of State, in Singapore's case, the President of the Republic of Singapore: "The President shall appoint as Prime Minister a Member of Parliament who in his judgment is likely to command the confidence of the majority of the Members of Parliament..." But even if the Prime Minister were elected separately by the legislature, that would constitute a separate event that does not fall within the meaning of a legislative or general election, if anything, it's a Prime Ministerial election and worthy of a separate article.

  Hope to hear your and any other editor's further input and opinion on whether the aforesaid clarifications change anything. Bcmh (talk) 04:38, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

• Singular. The article uses Singapore English and should abide by what is common use in Singapore. Per sources above, the term 'general election' is common in Singapore. The term 'general elections' is not. This is consistent with our counterparts in Malaysia and in the UK, from which our parliamentary system and terminology evolved from. See Next United Kingdom general election and 2022 Malaysian general election.Dawkin Verbier (talk) 16:39, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Which sources above are you referring to? The ones Bcmh provided that used the singular, or the ones I provided showing use of the plural? Both the Straits Times and the Elections Department use the plural as well as the singular. In fact, more examples of Singaporean sources using the plural have been provided than those using the singular. Number 57 21:25, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

    S'pore Democratic Party targets Sembawang in next General Election

    "Singaporeans will go to the polls on July 10, in a general election that will see the contest..."

    "work for the next General Election (GE) is “well underway”".

    Keir Starmer leads calls for immediate general election

    "SNP will treat next UK general election as 'de facto referendum'"

    Malaysia to hold general election on Nov 19

    "Ahead of polling for the 15th General Election (GE15), the Election Commission (EC) advises voters..." Bcmh (talk) 03:40, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

From the same set of sources:

• Funny how S'pore's first general elections look so familiar even in 2015
• Canada snap elections coming as Trudeau seeks post-pandemic mandate
• The Malaysian 15th General Elections ended on early Sunday (Nov 20) with no party winning a simple majority
• The results will give an indication of whether the party is recovering from its heavy defeat in the 2019 general elections
• India votes in the General Elections
• Pakistan is scheduled to hold general elections in August 2023 when the National Assembly, the Lower House of Parliament, completes its five-year term
• GE15: Dr M loses deposit in the 15th General Elections

Number 57 13:56, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

See what I mean? "Common usage" is a nebulous argument at best. There can be any number of persons and sources proving that what you or I say is "common". And even if you can find one more source than me, to prove that plural is more "common" than singular, how does that give you the permission to pronounce that plural should be used in this article on the basis of your definition of commonality? The meaning of commonality is in itself subjective to the respective beholder and ill-defined.

Therefore, to me, the only suitable variable to resolve this impasse is to use what is correct, which is what the constitution, legislation and regulations of Singapore refer to, and that is, a singular general election after every dissolution of parliament. Bcmh (talk) 06:10, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't know why I keep having to say this, but (as Dawkin Verbier points out below) both are correct, hence being used interchangeably. Number 57 12:08, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Not sure why I have to keep repeating myself, but only one is correct and they cannot be used interchangeably. Bcmh (talk) 14:54, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Given that multiple sources use both, you are clearly wrong to say "only one is correct". Number 57 18:39, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

• Thank you Dawkin Verbier for your input and concurrence. Bcmh (talk) 03:31, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. To be quite honest, whilst I still do think that the singular is more generally used in Singaporean English, I think both are acceptable in grammar and style, and that the discussion on this should be limited and perhaps not warrant an RfC. It may be better indeed for either one side to be taken and the other side to concede, or even that the decision be chosen arbitrarily as there's no strong reason in my view to have any one over the other. Dawkin Verbier (talk) 08:00, 27 November 2022 (UTC)