Talk:2023 European heatwaves

Prediction vs Actual Measurements

Take Italy, for example

Most of Italy saw temperatures above 40 °C (104 °F), with temperatures as high as 48 °C (118 °F) estimated to hit Sicily and Sardinia by the middle of July. The European Space Agency predicted that temperatures would exceed 48 °C (118 °F) in Sardinia some time in July, marking the hottest temperature ever recorded in Europe. It is also expected that an anticyclone dubbed "Charon" originating from North Africa may raise the temperature to above 45 °C (113 °F) in parts of Italy early in the week beginning 17 July.

So how do we find out what really was the highest temperature in Italy -and other European locations- july 2023? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.104.240.224 (talk) 22:28, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

19 July storm

This long-lived destructive storm that crossed the Balkans was likely a derecho that had some embedded supercells within. These types of storms have been difficult to identify in Europe in the past due to their often international nature, but it is easier nowadays thanks to projects such as the European Severe Weather Database. Blizk2 (talk) 16:02, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Storms section

Should the storms section even be in this article? All the information can be put into 2022–23 European windstorm season where it would be more suitable as this is an article about heatwaves, not storms, and they aren't really linked. greyzxq ^talk 21:14, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

The storms in question were mesoscale phenomena and therefore do not classify as European windstorms. These storms are associated with heat waves so I'm personally ok with mentions of them; some of these events are likely notable enough to warrant a dedicated article, as soon as more information provided by experts emerges. Blizk2 (talk) 10:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The storms, at least 19 and 21 July ones, should probably have their own article(s) because they might be sufficiently notable on their own. They were uniquely strong for (at least some) places that were affected by them. Also, the infobox in this article lists loses which are directly due to heat waves (i.e. due to the heat itself) and there were notable loses due to these storms. Niokog (talk) 11:08, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I will say that per the article scope, they should not be included. Storms can be triggered by particularly sudden temperature gradients after heat waves, but it is *not* the heat wave itself. I’ll be removing the section for now. Uness232 (talk) 15:14, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I've restored the section and added another storm that triggered historic floods. Bear in mind that there have probably been more such events this summer, I'm only covering what's happening near my city. I've seen pictures from Italy where hailstones were near 20 cm in diametre, which is probably a record for Europe, and I don't think this storm has been mentioned here yet.

So far, state-employed meteorologists have stated that they're causally connected, and I'd expect at some point a peer-reviewed paper linking both the heat waves and the storms and floods to July's unprecedented Mediterrannean marine heat wave. In any case, I can affirm thru OR at least that fatalities from summer storms, especially fatalities from falling trees are practically unheard of in Croatia and Slovenia. It's better to have this here than nowhere at all, at least until a better article can be found. Daß Wölf 20:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Two things being causally connected do not make them the same concept, however. I would argue that they look out of place in this article as a section. I understand the need for covering these storms, they are indeed unprecedented, but to incorporate these into the text or making them into separate stubs are the only acceptable things here in my opinion, per Wikipedia policies on article scope. Uness232 (talk) 21:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Since we're covering the background leading up to the heat waves, their consequences fall under the article scope too, IMO. I agree that they're already probably notable enough for standalone articles and expect them to see WP:LASTING WP:SIGCOV, but before that lasting sigcov happens they might simply get merged back here. I don't see any harm in waiting ATM. Daß Wölf 21:35, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Point taken, and I concede that re-merging could happen and would waste editors' time, especially as it happened to Cerberus (wrongly, I would argue). Uness232 (talk) 21:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Storms section is very necessary and I’ll be adding more information to it soon, leave it alone!2A02:A44C:6682:1:30AE:E210:63AA:E81D (talk) 20:26, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Usage of surface temperatures

For this article, but also generally for heat waves; I would not advise using surface temperatures. It can mislead the average reader. Uness232 (talk) 12:19, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:2003 European heat wave which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:01, 24 August 2023 (UTC)