Talk:1987 America's Cup

Nice one!

This is a great article; I just noticed it on the WA Project noticeboard. Congratulations to Moondyne and the other editors. I think it could be legitimately expanded with a section on the controversies/crazy schemes that blew up in the few years between victory and defeat. (For example: a proposal to bring the oil-rig Amethyst to Fremantle as a floating stadium, the "America's Cup Tent City", the power poles the FPA spent a fortune reconfiguring to take advertising, people being squeezed out by landlords hoping to cash in.) I've read some of this in one of Paddy O'Brien's books, Burke's Ambush, which could be used as a source. There was also plenty of coverage by the Sunday Times and the West Australian and an ABC TV panel programme (Couchman ?) that dealt with it. The public debate about the event's merits was big news throughout the process. If there's no objection I'd like to add some of it in a new section. Retarius | Talk 06:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Retarius. There's no objections from me for anything you said there. I just wish I'd kept some photos. :-( (—Moondyne click! 09:24, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Staging issues -

I have suggested offline that the issues such as are mentioned above in the staging issues should actually deserve a separate article - the henrietta website http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search/X?SEARCH=1987+americas+cup&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=A has a list in there somewhere of the west articles which should save you a lot of time. Please consider a separate article - as the article as it stands is more about the cup than the rubbish around the event - best of luck if you really want to indulge in the stufff - please consider a separate article - cheers SatuSuro 10:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Have left more comment at Retarius talk page re the actual article lists (shudder) -

http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search/X1987+americas+cup&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=A/X1987+americas+cup&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=A&SUBKEY=1987%20americas%20cup/13%2C88%2C88%2CB/frameset&FF=X1987+americas+cup&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=A&16%2C16%2C

and this

http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search/X1987+americas+cup&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=A/X1987+americas+cup&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=A&SUBKEY=1987%20americas%20cup/13%2C88%2C88%2CB/frameset&FF=X1987+americas+cup&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=A&17%2C17%2C

may all who sail on those stories not come asunder - break a leg or something like that SatuSuro 11:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I personally don't see a great need for a separate article, but will leave that to whoever can put something together. The current article could be easily expanded, IMHO. —Moondyne click! 11:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

For those of us who were there (and bear the scars) those were strange days indeed. Somewhere/someday there should be an article/book about the events and projects that provoked the fevered imaginations of 'gropers over the decades: John Glenn and the whole town in their yards with torches/Skylab's landing/Miss Universe (both '79)... Well, I'll have a try at this one if I can make time. Retarius | Talk 07:12, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Odd Sourcing

I have moved a source used in the article to below. I am not sure that it links to what it says - it seems to link to a yacht charter company. I'll try to fix it, unless anyone else does so first. Weakopedia (talk) 21:37, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

name=classic12metercharters>"The America's Cup A History 1851 - 2003". Sail World. Retrieved 2008-02-23.

The link used to go to an ad for the cited book. Unless more folks have this $250 book than I think, the new reference I've just supplied from the New York Times is probably a better one.--Paul (talk) 02:16, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I also noticed the price of the book! The information was to be found on the charter website (if you went looking, it wasn't in the link) but I was sure the information could be found without advertising one or another company. Cheers. Weakopedia (talk) 09:18, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Triangular Course Design

The use of the two reaching legs was a novelty of the 1987 Cup races. They were not well liked by the competitors as they required two additional sails to be carried in the inventory and they were not felt to provide opportunity for lead changes. I reworked it to try to leave the information while eliminating the definitive wording. I'm not entirely happy with it, but it does add some information that may be found interesting.

By the way, the course did not end on a run as depicted in the diagram of the course. There were eight legs, not seven, with the final leg a beat to windward. Gunbirddriver (talk) 03:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Re your last sentence, I cant remember specifically but do know that I copied the course diagram from a URL which unfortunately now appears as a broken link. –Moondyne 04:42, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure that's true. Perhaps that's why It's listed erroneously as a production error in the movie "Wind", that the final race scene shows the competitors are beating to windward but should be in a run. But there was no production error on that score. It's described correctly in the text. Eight legs, the first and last both beats to windward.Gunbirddriver (talk) 07:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The finish leg direction is going to bug me now! I'm leaning towards thinking you're right but want to see a source. I have some material stored which I'll dig out tonight and which will hopefully settle this. –Moondyne 07:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Triangular courses with two reaching legs used during the America's Cup:

• 1930 - Races 2 & 4
• 1934 - Races 2, 4 & 6
• 1937 - Races 2 & 4
• 1958 - Races 2 & 4
• 1962 - Races 2 & 4
• 1964 - Races 1, 2, 3 & 4 America's Cup Olympic Course (with two reaching legs)
• 1967 - Races 1, 2, 3 & 4 America's Cup Olympic Course (with two reaching legs)
• 1970 - Races 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5 America's Cup Olympic Course (with two reaching legs)
• 1974 - Races 1, 2, 3 & 4 America's Cup Olympic Course (with two reaching legs)
• 1977 - Races 1, 2, 3 & 4 America's Cup Olympic Course (with two reaching legs)
• 1980 - Races 1, 2, 3 & 4 America's Cup Olympic Course (with two reaching legs)
• 1983 - Races 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 America's Cup Olympic Course (with two reaching legs)

There is nothing unique about an America's Cup course with two reaching legs. Besides the races listed, there were many races from 1870 to 1908 which included reaching legs. The big change came LATER when the reaching legs were removed (1995?)--Paul (talk) 15:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Well you clearly have the goods on this one. Curious, as I remember the discussion at the time. I'll see if I can figure out what all that was about, as it looks like nothing unusual at all. Maybe I just don't remember it correctly. Anyway, I'm glad you got it right. Good on ya. Gunbirddriver (talk) 18:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Map is now updated. You may have to refresh your cache (Ctrl-F5) to see it. –Moondyne 00:12, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

That's brilliant, Moondyne! Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:41, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Curiouser and curiouser: A few minutes ago I was speaking with Rolly Tasker and his clear recollection is of Connor crossing the line with a spinnaker set. He agreed the course setting was unusual but is certain that thats what happened in the final race. –Moondyne 03:28, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Sailing to windward is the normal final point of sail in the races I have seen. As Conner approached the finish he was on course to collide with the committee boat, bearing off in the last fifteen feet and crossing the line to the sound of the gun. This one you can take to the bank. I don't know how I got the course controversy mixed up. I do know the course went from six legs to eight, but Paul has the goods there. Gunbirddriver (talk) 18:23, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Rolly Tasker! Good on him, too! Gunbirddriver (talk) 18:34, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

From what I've found, the use of reaching legs was not liked amoung the sailors at the 87 Cup and is an uncomon practice in match races, but rightly or wrongly are routinely used in the America's Cup. Gunbirddriver (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Course Changes Made Passing Difficult

I have been thinking about this still, and remember people being unhappy with the course because they felt it would be difficult to pass. It's hard to find this type of discussion now some twenty-four years later. The reaching legs were one contention as they did not afford opportunity for a lead change and required you to carry a specially designed sail for them, both negatives. Paul h has conclusively shown these were not new or unusual in the America's Cup, but they were still not liked by the racers. The other thing that was problematic was the number of legs. I believe it went from six legs to eight for the 87 cup, with the length of the legs shorter, and this also was considered something that would make it more difficult for a trailing boat to get past a leading boat. Thus the emphasis on getting to the first mark, as the leader around the first mark had a greater edge than in previous cup races. I will not write anything about it on the page unless I can find this somewhere that would source it, but I am pretty confident that was the thinking among the sailors at the time.Gunbirddriver (talk) 18:05, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Alan Bond regarding the course design with eight shorter legs:

"The problem is that the shortened course means that if you win the start you have a distinct advantage if you get to the first windward mark first." Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:40, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

References

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.americascup.com/en/acclopaedia/circlinggalaxy/bateau.php?idContent=4931
  • In 1987 America's Cup on 2011-05-25 05:38:21, 404 Not Found
  • In 1987 America's Cup on 2011-06-24 06:49:49, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 06:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 2

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.americascup.com/en/acmag/features/tech_design/index.php?idIndex=0&idContent=13630
  • In 1987 America's Cup on 2011-05-25 05:38:21, 404 Not Found
  • In 1987 America's Cup on 2011-06-24 06:49:59, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 06:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 3

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.fremantleports.com.au/Shipping/Business/PortInformation.asp
  • In 1987 America's Cup on 2011-05-25 05:38:29, 404 Not Found
  • In 1987 America's Cup on 2011-06-24 06:50:09, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 06:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 4

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://speedway.com.au/cgi-bin/speedway.pl?A=FeatureStory&ID=38
  • In 1987 America's Cup on 2011-05-25 05:38:32, 404 Not Found
  • In 1987 America's Cup on 2011-06-24 06:50:34, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 06:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)