Talk:15 cm Nebelwerfer 41

maximum range

Maximum range of the 15cm rocket was over 6,000 meters -- not sure why the info box shows it as about 1/3 of that range. W. B. Wilson (talk) 11:58, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

number produced

Other sources indicate the number produced was in the low thousands, but the infobox shows between 300 - 400? W. B. Wilson (talk) 12:00, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Literal translation

As to prevent WP:EW discussion about the literal translation of the name "Nebelwerfer" can go here:

Possibilities are

• Smoke Launcher
• Smoke Mortar
• Smoke Thrower

Out of these possibilities Smoke Thrower has a source and is a correct translation of the two parts of the German compound word, those being Nebel (Mist / Smoke) and Werfer (Thrower).

I personally have even added a source for this translation, in accordance with WP:NOR and WP:V. DynCoder (talk) 12:37, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

also posted on my talk - In german language Granatwerfer is mortar in english. The german chemical corps (Nebeltruppen) started with mortars before switching to rocket artillery. That 'Nebel' part of their name is smoke and it was chosen to hide the real intention of these units to fire chemical ammo like Mustard gas and similar types. That's the background of this word. --Denniss (talk) 13:16, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes so you're saying Granatwerfer means mortar, now let me show you something:

Granatwerfer is also a compound word, Granat and Werfer, it throws grenades. In English it's a single word, mortar, in German it's a compound word, Granatwerfer.

However we're not talking about a mortar. When you apply this in reverse to "smoke mortar", shouldn't the German word be Nebelgranatwerfer?

Mortars have nothing to do with this article in the slightest.... DynCoder (talk) 13:22, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

To add to above reply, the mortars the Nebeltruppen used were also called Nebelwerfer, because they did the same thing, they threw 'smoke' (so called). But the Germans had a tendency to call anything that launches something a thrower. DynCoder (talk) 13:28, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Mortars have a lot to to with that name issue as explained above. Mortars are not throwing anything, they are firing/launching grenades. This was once properly explained in the Nebelwerfer article until some idiotic series of edit warring by one user removed vital parts of the explanation. This editor obvioulsy had no idea of german language nor miltary terms.--Denniss (talk) 14:14, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I am well aware of the workings of a mortar. And like I said, they had a tendency to call any kind of launchers "werfer", instead of inventing a new word for it. Granatwerfer doesn't even necessarily mean mortar according to the German wikipedia article. Like stated before, it's all just compound words. But hey if you want to call a piece of rocket artillery a mortar of all things, go for it! But don't put your own linguistic preferences on wikipedia. Werfer is best translated as Thrower, not Mortar, especially in this case since we're not even talking about a mortar. Of course if you have some kinda source that explains why "werfer" or "nebelwerfer" specifically should be called a mortar, please drop it in a reply, I'd love to see it DynCoder (talk) 14:40, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

You can make a good case for either thrower or launcher, but mortar is right out.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:04, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

And to put one final nail in this coffin, I just realized the German word for "Mortar" is "Mörser", not Granatwerfer. And yes the word Mörser has been in use in WW1 and WW2, so safe to say they didn't even intend for it to mean mortar in the case of the earlier Nebelwerfers. DynCoder (talk) 13:36, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

That's rather the final nail into the coffin of your argument - there are more german words describing this type of gun. Mörser is the general type of a gun with very short barrel, often with large caliber like Karl-Gerät. Granatwerfer was most often (but not always) used for infantry-type weapon like 8 cm Granatwerfer 34. But this has changed post-ww2 as Granatwerfer was then associated with grenade-launcher. --Denniss (talk) 14:34, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

"there are more German words describing this type of gun" <- And your point is?

IIRC Granatwerfer is simply an infantry weapon that can throw a Grenade (or other projectile) further than the soldier could by hand, and that is still correct for modern grenade launchers.

I have yet to hear a proper argument as to why it's mortar other than that there was an earlier weapon that they also called Nebelwerfer, which happened to be a mortar. In the case of those weapons it still means smoke thrower. They called it a smoke thrower because it threw smoke (so called). A Granatwerfer is called a Granatwerfer, why? Weil es Granaten wirft. Same goes for Nebelwerfer: es wirft Nebel, ne? If they explicitly wanted to call it a mortar, they would have called it "Nebelmörser", because that is a correct 1-on-1 translation.

If you're going to reply further please come with a new argument or source, or explain why you're so adamant on mortar being the only correct translation despite me literally adding a source in addition to common sense.
DynCoder (talk) 15:29, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

According to your argumentation the Sturmgewehr 44 would be a storm rifle and not an assault rifle. Translation is not always simple so knowledge of language and terms are sometimes really required. Your "source" explicitely named that a literal translation which we all know is often wrong. See example with storm rifle wich suffers from the same literal translation problem.--Denniss (talk) 21:35, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Unlike werfer -> mortar, sturm actually means assault, see dictionary I google real quick DynCoder (talk) 21:43, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Not to mention storm in English is also a synonym for assault. DynCoder (talk) 21:48, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I just looked at the edit history and it seems you have always been adamant on the name, but you used to agree with "Smoke Thrower" until this edit in 2018. Why did you suddenly change your mind there if I may ask? Also I checked a bit of the edit history on nebelwerfer and found an explanation for the "nebel" part, but not the "mortar" part (which seems to just be sourced by some online dictionary, you think the dictionary people know enough about military terms to know this? Not sure what type of source LEO falls under though, see WP:DICTS). DynCoder (talk) 15:05, 6 April 2023 (UTC)