Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Darts/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Template:WikiProject Darts

Resolved

 – Kindly expanded

Template:WikiProject Darts
I created a template for putting on the Talk pages of darts articles, although I did not make it right, could someone go to the template and fix it. Mr.Kennedy1 (talk) 20:49, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Have readied it for assessment and created all the necessary categories, which should automatically populate with all articles already tagged. Created Wikipedia:WikiProject Darts/Assessment, will expand later. Tagged several articles and run assessment bot – seems to be working. _wjemather^bigissue 12:46, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Perry Prine

Resolved

 – Article was deleted

I was browsing through the American darts players category when I discovered this! - Perry Prine.

Is he even notable, my opinion is that he's certainly not notable to be in a darts category but what do you think? Raphie (talk) 10:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

He mustn't even be a pro, did you look at the reference, it's from a wiki article, this article must be deleted. Excellent find, keep it up. Mr.Kennedy1 (talk) 10:22, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

User:Mr.Kennedy1/Sandbox/Template:Darts nav

I created this in my sandbox because it needs to be fixed up a bit, look at it and feel free to make any edits to it that would improve it. Mr.Kennedy1 (talk) 11:28, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Darts invite

You have been invited to join WikiProject Darts. We are dedicated to improving and expanding darts-related articles on Wikipedia. You received this invitation due to your interest in darts and/or your edits to Darts-related articles. If you would like to join, please click here, and add your name to the bottom of the list of project members. ~~~~

I created this to try to get more people to join the Project. Just put this on the talk page of any user

{{subst:WikiProject Darts Invite}} - Do not add a title or sign the page as this is all done automatically. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 14:45, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

2011 PDC WC

Resolved

 – It was created. 2011 PDC World Darts Championship

We should create an article about the 2011 PDC World Darts Championships. Dates are known, the qualifying process could be explained, prize money is known... -Koppapa (talk) 07:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Go on ahead and make it or you could put it in aticle requests on the to-do list and let someone else make it. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 08:43, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh well, he is my try 2011 PDC World Darts Championship :) -Koppapa (talk) 10:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

That is impressive, I made a few changes but overall it is a very good article. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 13:16, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

PDC Pro Tour

Resolved

 – Articles created

I was looking at the PDC Pro Tour article and I was thinking maybe it could be seperated into articles as it is a very long list of results that will just get longer as time goes on. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 13:44, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Adopt an article

I added this section in hope that it would be suitable to get members to take an article and fix it up instead of just making changes here and there. What do you's think? Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 18:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Infobox darts player

I started a discussion some time ago concerning the bloated nature of {{Infobox darts player}}, but no responses were forthcoming. Basically much of the information currently in the infobox needs to be moved to the main body of the articles to comply with WP guidelines for infoboxes. My original comments can be found at Template talk:Infobox darts player#Information overload. I appreciate that this creates a lot of work, but I think it should be done sooner rather than later. _wjemather^bigissue 11:51, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Importance ratings

Hi, was just in the process of answering when you removed the question. Not sure if you're still curious, but the way I see it, individual editions of tournaments (even world championships) are all of low importance unless there is something out of the ordinary to push it above that.The world championships could possibly be assessed as mid importance, but not the lesser tournaments. Of course the parent articles will be assessed much higher.

What also that concerns me is whether individual editions of lower tournaments are sufficiently notable, with extensive independent reliably sourced coverage, to warrant articles at all. Regards, _wjemather^bigissue 08:57, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but if you put individual tournaments like the World Grand Prix and GSoD low importance then smaller individual tournaments like the European Championship wouldn't fit in the Darts importance scale at all. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 09:20, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

We cannot rate articles on that basis – we would need far more steps on the scale. Otherwise we could end up with this:

• Top – xxxx World Championship
• High – xxxx World Matchplay
• Mid – xxxx Grand Slam of Darts
• Low – xxxx European Championship

However the general article is of higher importance than a single instance of it, so we would have to rate the World Matchplay as top importance alongside the World Championships, which we wouldn't want either.

We just have to accept that the categories are broad. Therefore it is best to ignore relative importance to other articles. Most of our articles will be rated as low, with there being a wide spread of importance within that, and some will be very, very low. _wjemather^bigissue 09:50, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

To explain further where I am coming from, I largely tend to see the importance ratings as an indication of priority rather than significance, based on what an average reader may want to find out about. That way it is much easier to assign ratings. _wjemather^bigissue 10:31, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Lets compare it to WP:FOOTBALL to see whats going on in other projects:

• 2010 FIFA World Cup - High
• FIFA World Cup - Top
• UEFA European Football Championship - High
• UEFA Euro 2008 - High
• FIFA Confederations Cup - Mid

So, the smaller the tournament the lower the importance which is exactly the way we should do it, as for annual tournaments, it is usually around the same rating as the main article. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 11:55, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

[Outdent] The principal purpose of the importance ratings is for WP:1.0, so they can do triage and figure out what to include on hardcopy editions of various capacities (CD, DVD, DVD-9, whatever) of Wikipedia. WikiProjects also use them internally as a measure of priority (versus significance, per se - WP:BIOGRAPHY even renamed their |importance= parameter to |priority=). Keeping this in mind, it should not be terribly difficult to arrive at a balanced approach. My take on the matter (mostly at WP:CUE and WP:SNOOKER) has been something like this (with regard to events - players and other article types are handled differently):

• Top: The main article on the highest-level, global pro and highest level, global amateur event series. And that' it.
• High: Main articles on major pro and am world-scale event series; Darts in the Olympic Games could go here too; article on the current year's highest-level, global pro & am events (demote to Low next year); UEFA events (from the above example) can't rationally be this high, because they are European regional (cf. WP:BIAS). Yet by contrast, in snooker, all fully ranking tournaments would be at this importance level, even if named things like UK Snooker Championship, since they're all international and top-pros-only, regardless where they're held (i.e., the names are deceptive).
• Mid: Main articles on multinational but region- or continent-limited, non-global event series, such as Eur. championship, Asian Games, etc.
• Low: All other event-related articles, including national and sub-national events, demo/friendly/exposition/one-off events, defunct event series, and previous years' articles on events (at any level).

A particular event might be notable for some other reason (e.g., a terrorist bomb threat disrupted the event), but not to this project (in the bomb example, it would be of higher importance to WP:TERRORISM). And it wouldn't make any sense at all for a High year-specific article to be anything but Low the year after (perhaps even the month after) the event is over.

NB: I realize that not all sports/games projects importance-prioritize exactly as I've stated here. I strongly believe that they should, and that WP:SPORT should have a guideline about this so that treatment is consistent across various games.

— SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 07:18, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

PS: Since this sport has two competing pro governing bodies with two competing World Championships, both (per WP:NPOV) should be Top-rated. We are not permitted to pick a favorite (yet I am already observing bias against the BDO event in WP materials; that has to stop). The two other "World" events would be High. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 07:38, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

So when this is settled, should we create a guideline for the project importance ratings? Mr.Kennedy1 ^{talk guestbook} 14:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be more productive to do this broadly, at WP:SPORT, since the same issues apply across all sports. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 19:44, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects/Instructions

Resolved

 – Finished

Hi, anyone that knows how to get this bot on to the project, could you please do so. It would be a great addition to the project. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 15:42, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Done based on articles being tagged with the project banner... I think. We'll find out soon enough. _wjemather^bigissue 16:20, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Success. The list can be found here. Wikipedia:WikiProject Darts/Unreferenced BLPs. _wjemather^bigissue 10:51, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Where do we put on the project page? Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 10:54, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps an item in the to-do list? _wjemather^bigissue 11:20, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, seems suitable. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 11:24, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Association of College Unions International

Resolved

 – Article was deleted

Is this a darts organisation, it is in the category Category:Darts organisations.Mr.Kennedy1 (talk) 09:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

By a loose definition maybe. It appears to organise or at least sponsor some tournaments. _wjemather^bigissue 13:12, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Now speedily deleted under WP:CSD#G11. _wjemather^bigissue 13:44, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

List of professional darts players

Resolved

 – Decided to keep and was expanded and reformatted

Should this article be deleted as their are over 1,000 darts players and their isn't 30 in this list, I think that categories seem to be the easiest way for sorting darts players. Mr.Kennedy1 (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I'd delete it, as it isn't complete anyway. -Koppapa (talk) 20:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I have listed it for deletion and it will be deleted on August 6, 2010, that is if nobody removes the tag from the page. Mr.Kennedy1 (talk) 11:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

List of darts player nicknames This is a similar list. -Koppapa (talk) 06:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not that bad though, it's a table and a good list. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 09:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

List should be kept and updated with all players with an article on WP. Also useful to have nationality and lifespan in the list as per other similar lists. _wjemather^bigissue 12:25, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I have filled out the list to include all players with articles listed in Category:Darts players. As such, I have also renamed it removing the word professional, i.e. List of darts players. _wjemather^bigissue 12:52, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar

Resolved

 – Image and template was made.

Here's the Barnstar I came up with:


I you'd like it changed, feel free to talk to me on my talk page! EW_ikist^Talk 17:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's the template...

		The Darts Barnstar
		{{{1}}}

...and here's how to use it:

{{subst:The Darts Barnstar|message ~~~~}}

Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 12:20, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Redirect for banner

I have created a redirect for Template:WikiProject Darts, it is called Template:Darts. I created it for ease of placing the tag on articles. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 14:23, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Advertisement

Here's the advertisement for WikiProject Darts, per Mr.Kennedy1's request:

Enjoy! EW_ikist^Talk 21:06, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Template:Dartsdatabase

I have created a template that makes it easy to link player profiles to Dartsdatabase. I need help spreading it around darts player articles. See documentation on template page for instructions on how to use the template. Mr.Kennedy1 ^{talk guestbook} 11:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

User:Mr.Kennedy1/Sandbox/Phil Taylor new lead

Resolved

 – New lead merged into article

Hi, for anyone that would like to improve the lead section of the Phil Taylor article, I have created a sandbox for it. There are some links to good examples and to MOS's. Please help! Mr.Kennedy1 ^{talk guestbook} 12:07, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Darts articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release

Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Darts articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (♦) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 22:20, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Template:Darts player table

Unresolved

 – Nothing done yet

I would like to see {{Darts player form}} disappear. There are two major problems that immediately spring to mind. One is recentism, the other is the fact is needs constant updating and has the potential for endless expansion as new tournaments are added. Being incomplete, it also doesn't really add anything to the articles, but complete it would be huge and unwieldy.

It is fair enough to have a timeline of performances in the World Championships, but not for every major tournament. Best performances will suffice. _wjemather^bigissue 17:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

It would be good if it was changed to represent lifetime performances, eg. Template:Football player statistics 1, where you can insert the tournaments yourself and it dosen't take up much room. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 19:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I lean toward Mr.Kennedy1's take on this. That table (it's not a form) could get very large indeed for long-term pros. And I'm skeptical that the retained, lifetime data should be in a separate template. It would almost certainly be better to integrate this into the player infobox. I don't mean to always use WP:CUE/WP:SNOOKER examples because I think they're better than everyone else, I just know them best, and here's another: See how snooker pros' lifetime stats are handled in Template:Infobox Snooker player (see Ronnie O'Sullivan for a well-developed example "in the wild"). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 07:25, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I am concerned about the idea of integrating it into the infobox, as Wjemather is in the process of trying to cut some of the info out. On the other hand, Template:Infobox snooker player, does not have loads of info and Template:Infobox darts player would be better like that. Mr.Kennedy1 ^{talk guestbook} 14:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes is is a table. However, in this context "form" means recent performances (as in form (horse racing)). _wjemather^bigissue 22:40, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

It really should not be integrated into the infobox, and I'm sure that was not what was meant since that is certainly not what the snooker player infobox does. I see that O'Sullivan's article contains a table listing his performances in every single ranking event he has ever played in, and assume that is what SM is actually referring to. However, I really don't see the value in detailing performances in every single tournament someone has ever played. Just seems like statistics overload to me. As I already stated above, listing the best performance in each event is more than enough. _wjemather^bigissue 22:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Noticed that golf players have a similar table of form which shows their entire career performances in the majors. I recall creating the table in the first place when it looked like this Original format, it was an attempt to try to reduce much of the recentism that was appearing in darts articles at the time, editors were simply putting "on July 15th Phil Taylor won the Bobby Bourne Players Championship, then on July 16th he won the Players Championship NW" and so on. Since then people have added other tournaments which I wouldn't say were particularly relevant. Looking at [Taylor's article] - I really like the Performance Timeline - question is, do we stick to just WC performances in there, or do we define which "majors" are listed?

As for the original question of whether {{Darts player form}} disappears - as I say, I was the original instigator of that table and would agree that it probably isn't doing the job it was intended do and could be deleted. Seedybob2 (talk) 09:12, 26 September 2010 (UTC) (forgot how to delete pages, I've not done as many updates as I used to)

Phil Taylor

The Phil Taylor article is currently a GAN, any improvements to the article would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Mr.Kennedy1 ^{talk guestbook} 15:19, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

If DartsDatabase is user-editable like IMDb, this article's extreme reliance on it is going to prevent it from ever being a GA. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 23:22, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Where did you hear that? Dartsdatabase isn't user-editable. In it's home page it says that if anyone spots a mistake they have to email them. Mr.Kennedy1 ^{talk guestbook} 09:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Adopt an article

To all project members, I noticed that the Adopt an article section is not being used, should it be kept or should we delete it? I think we should keep it as it is a good idea and if it were to be used, we could improve articles alot faster than we are now. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 11:29, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Retiring

To all project members, I am not going to be editing on Wikipedia anymore so I ask that the project members keep this project going and develop it into a great project. Thank you to all that helped me along the way. Mr.Kennedy1 ^talk 16:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

David Hightower Smith

Just found this in the Professional Darts Corporation players category - David Hightower Smith. This player is not notable at all and the article must surely be a candidate for speedy deletion. CFuller (talk) 17:28, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Article doesn't give any clues to notability, either prod it or take it to AfD, I'd say. —Half Price 14:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject cleanup listing

I have created together with Smallman12q a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for WolterBot and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of Category:WolterBot cleanup listing subscriptions). See the tool's wiki page, this project's listing in one big table or by categories and the index of WikiProjects. Svick (talk) 20:38, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

BDO world championships

An editor recently proposed most of Category:BDO World Darts Championships for deletion, with the rationale "No sources. Has been tagged for more than four years. We don't know if this info is factual or not because there is no way to check it (WP:verifiability). Challenging the article, which should be removed.". I have removed the deletion tags on the grounds that these wouldn't be uncontroversial candidates for deletion, as required by WP:PROD, but the proposer does have a point that most of these articles are totally unsourced. I don't have sources to hand to fix this, so could any of you darts aficionados do anything to sources these articles? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:45, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. Well obviously the prod-ers claim that the information can not be verified is complete nonsense since all the tournaments would be reported extensively in the press, particularly in the UK. Will take some time to fix them up though. _wjemather^bigissue 20:53, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

This web cache is slightly useful. —Half Price 21:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The details for the finals are available on the BDO site (here), it's the complete draws that will be more difficult to find. _wjemather^bigissue 21:14, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much to PhilBridger for making this post. I had not thought to do so when I started working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Articles_lacking_sources_from_October_2006. Since then I have learned to check the Talk Pages of the article and to contact the relevant Project if there is one. One learns. Anyway, as you will note if you go to that page, you will find several articles dealing with darts, all of which need Sources. Sincerely, your friend in Wikidom, GeorgeLouis (talk) 15:42, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Old BDO WC

The old editions (well up to 2010) use this bracket: Template:World Snooker Championship Rounds. This is well better suited, Template:32TeamBracket-Compact-NoSeeds-Byes especially with the many byes in the earlier editions. I started here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1979_BDO_World_Darts_Championship . What's a good way to convert? Flags and the ocasional player (darts player) links are hindering. -Koppapa (talk) 22:28, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand the issue. Good work converting though. —Half Price 17:41, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Darts tranfers

I want you users to have a look a three darts articles I recently created.
List of darts players who transferred from the BDO to the PDC
List of darts players who transferred from the PDC to the BDO
List of BDO darts players who joined the PDC before returning
Tell me what you think! Wonderwizard (talk) 1 January 2011 (UCT)

Great work - very comprehensive. But I don't think we need three separate articles. If we were to have a List of players who transferred between BDO and PDC or words to that effect, I think that would make more sense as the latter two articles are very short. And so we split the combined article into sections based on the previous article titles. Also, instead of giving every year its own section, we could just insert a Year of transfer field as the first column of the tables. —Half Price 11:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry! I had a while thinking about it. But yes! I will bring the three darts articles I made into your proposed article you mentioned. Wonderwizard (talk) 6 January 2011 (UCT)

Great. If you would like a hand at any time I'm happy to help. —Half Price 22:14, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Not sure that is the best title. Think we could do with a bit more discussion before merging. Centainly needs the word "darts" in there for starters. Something like "List of darts players who have switched/changed organisation" perhaps. _wjemather^bigissue 23:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it does need the word darts. My suggestion was merely an example. I like List of darts players who have switched organisation. —Half Price 18:56, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

3 darts averages at the World Darts Championship

On the Standing of organisations section of the Split in darts article, there is a comparison of 3 dart averages at the 2009 World Darts Championships for both the BDO and the PDC. I wonder if someone would add in more comparison of 3 dart averages for the other World Darts Championships. Wonderwizard (talk) 19 January (UCT)

Where could these be found? —Half Price 17:40, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Dartsdatabase.co.uk and calc.exe i suppose. -Koppapa (talk) 18:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes, so for example comparing this and this. Only issue is that the number of competitors in each round is different and the PDC have now and then used group stages at the start. So instead of the Tournament (Last 32 onwards) column, we'd need to use Tournament average † with the † below the table saying "From where both tournaments have equal players" or something like that. —Half Price 19:02, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of 1991 BDO World Darts Championship for deletion

The article 1991 BDO World Darts Championship is being discussed concerning whether it is suitable for inclusion as an article according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1991 BDO World Darts Championship until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Jeepday (talk) 02:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

WDF World Rankings

I found the WDF World Rankings for men and women through the World Darts Federation website. But can someone tell me is the Winmau Seedings on the British Darts Organisation website the offical WDF rankings or does it determine the seeds for the World Masters? Wonderwizard (talk) February 26 (UCT)

The BDO rankings are different to the WDF rankings. The BDO rankings determine the automatic qualifiers for the World Masters and Lakeside. The WDF rankings cover more tournaments, but aren't really used for much. CFuller (talk) 20:12, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Article tone

I have added a "Tone" tag to 2003 PDC World Darts Championship and added my comments to the article's talk page. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 07:12, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Northern Ireland flag

I noticed that all of the darts article I have looked at use the Ulster Banner as the flag for Northern Ireland. As Northern Ireland does not have an official flag this use is only normally done when the sporting organisation uses it (as with FIFA for soccer and also PGA for Golf) to represent the country (see WP:IMOS FLAGS). I have looked on both the BDO and WDF websites without being able to find any use. Am I just not looking in the right place? Bjmullan (talk) 14:09, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

If there is no input from anyone I will look at implement the IMOS. Bjmullan (talk) 18:35, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It is not a problem showing the Ulster Banner here. While it's not the "offical flag" of the country since 1972 it is still representative of Northern Ireland in many areas. Just because the darts organization does not use it on its website does not mean that we shouldn't use it here. It is really quite a minor point in this article, so for consistency and to avoid great arguments I'd leave it. WizOfOz (talk) 18:57, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a problem. If the sporting bodies do not use the flag then they should not be used. Bjmullan (talk) 19:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Can I take it that no one can come up with a reliable source to indicate that either the World Darts Federation or British Dart Organisation use the now defunct Ulster Banner? If that is the case I will look at removing it from darts articles. Bjmullan (talk) 18:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Can you find a source to show that they don't use the Ulster Banner? If not, I'm inclined to leave it as it is. Several other sporting bodies use it to identify N Ireland so the message would get through. Also, the flag is littered all over darts articles. There is no way anyone could weed them all out. —Half Price 20:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

We don't really need sources from those organizations. The flag icons are about the people, not about the organizations. You'll note in the articles there are flags from many different nations, and I guess hardly any of them can be sourced to the organizations, so I don't see a mojor problem here. It will stir up a hornet's nest taking out lots of flags, espcially Irish ones. Again, I say leave it be. WizOfOz (talk) 20:57, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

@Half price it's the responsibility of people who add items to provide RS when challenged not the other way around. @WizOfOz the answer to your question on whether you need a source for an organisation is yes. If you are not sure on the guideline then please read WP:IMOS FLAGS. Bjmullan (talk) 21:35, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

BJM, I'm very surprised at your action of removing the NI flag and I'm going to revert it. You requested opinions on the matter, which you got, but you ignored them. You must get consensus for potentially controversial changes like this, and you haven't done so. WizOfOz (talk) 16:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

This project page has had more than enough time to produce RS for the use of the defunct NI flag. But I'm in no rush and BTW the consensus for the removal has been agreed at the IMOS. Bjmullan (talk) 17:32, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The onus is on who added the flag to show that it is used by the governing body. The flag is not the flag of NI and should not be used unless it is used by the sports governing body. Mo ainm~Talk 16:24, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear on consensus. The consensus of the WP is to implement the MOS. Using the UB with reference goes against the MOS and therefore goes against consensus. Bjmullan (talk) 16:26, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Not quite. All MOSs can be trumped by consensus for particular articles. The editor above is also thinking that the flags are being used to represent governing bodies - they aren't, they are representing the individuals. I sense some sort of political POV going on here. WizOfOz (talk) 16:34, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Wiz please assume good faith would it be correct for me to say that you are pushing an Ulster Loyalist agenda, of course not so don't level the same accusation at others. Mo ainm~Talk 16:38, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

First of WizOfOz, I am not thinking the the flag is used to represent governing bodies, on the contrary it's that the flag is being used to represent individuals (and locations) without the governing bodies doing the same. Second, can you please point out where it states that the MOS can be trumped by local consensus? As for the AGF you might want to look at this edit. You have a good day now and unless someone can come up with a reference the MOS will be implemented whether like it or not. Bjmullan (talk) 18:20, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Threats and sarcasm will get you nowhere fast, matey. You clearly don't like the Ulster Banner. I'm ambivalent on the matter, being more interested in flags for their own sake. There are many policies which you should revise, including "don't disrupt Wikipedia to make a point" and the front page of the MOS whre editors are urged to use common sense, etc, etc. Note also the need to maintain consistency within an article. Whatever else can be argued for and against the matter, one thing is for certain, whatever you do regarding editing here and elsewhere, if it's controversial you've got to get consensus related to the matter in hand and not indirectly via some policy or other. Looking at the debate here we obviously don't have a consensus, what with only four people expressing a view, and opinion so far being evenly split. So here's my suggestion. Wait till there is consensus, and remember - no consensus, no change. WizOfOz (talk) 19:50, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Take a step back everyone and calm down lets talk to each other and not at each other. The Ulster Banner is a flag that has sectarian connotations, real or imagined and it's use should only be when the governing body use the flag. Mo ainm~Talk 20:44, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed its controversial in some quarters but that shouldn't stop Wikipedia from using it. I'm not sure what if any flags are used by these sporting bodies. From what I can see the flags in these darts articles are used as a quick reference to the person's country, so to have gaps for people from NI doesn't look good. The alternative of using the Union Flag is not good either because its inaccurate for people from NI in that it doesn't tell you that's where they are actually from. WizOfOz (talk) 21:04, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Not really the fact of the matter is the the Union Flag is the only official flag of NI. But I can see a problem there also with it if regional flags such as England are used in other articles. Another issue then with using the Union Flag is that it is only being used because of the birthplace of the player which as we know is against the MOS. Mo ainm~Talk 21:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

WizOfOz, I'm not your matey and you have still not provided any proof (via diff's) that the MOS can be trumped. You can also provide diffs that indicates that the UB has consensus and also a WP:RS cos as Mo has already pointed out it's the onus of the person(s) that adds the information to provide the reference not the other way around. If no RS is provided the MOS will be implement. Bjmullan (talk) 13:34, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll revert it if there's no consensus, and so far there isn't. WizOfOz (talk) 14:14, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

WizOfOz as I've already pointed out the MOS has been agreed by consensus. I can see nowhere where the consensus is that the flag should be kept. Can you provide a diff of this consensus? The onus is on you to provide a reference for the use of the flag, reverting could be consider disruptive. Bjmullan (talk) 15:19, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

The flag is already there. Now you show me the consensus to change that situation. That's where the onus lies. Like I said, no consensus, no change. And as for the MOS, sorry but you still need consensus for specific situations. Now, I'm debating this no more with you, but as I said, if you attmept another non-consensual change - which could be considered disruptive - I'll revert it. WizOfOz (talk) 17:17, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Again I will ask you to show me where it states that the MOS requires consensus for specific situations? Bjmullan (talk) 17:34, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

So it looks like WizOfOz doesn't want to participate in this discussion, he will just revert. So I will ask if there are any other members of this project the can supply any evident to support the inclusion of the defunct NI flag? In particular I am looking for evident to support a consensus to use the flag or that darts organising bodies use the flag. Thank you for your help in advance. Bjmullan (talk) 22:05, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I see that he has again been trying to effectively vandalise darts articles with his groundless agenda. My point of view is that, until the Unionists, Republicans, and other Northern Irish people can agree on one flag for the province, the Ulster Banner should be used to represent Northern Ireland in sport. Is he going to do this to the snooker articles, or the golf articles, or even the Commonwealth Games articles? Indeed, the Ulster Banner is used to represent NI on many, many sports articles - is he seriously going to vandalise all these articles just because he doesn't like a flag? That's childish, in my opinion. Unless he can show the consensus that the Ulster Banner SHOULD NOT be used in such cases, what he is doing is completely against the ideals of Wikipedia. If he cannot show the consensus, he should leave Wikipedia and not come back. CFuller (talk) 10:03, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

CFuller, perhaps you should read WP:AGF as well as WP:MOSFLAG and WP:IMOS#Flags. You also could explain how my edits to bring articles into line with two manuals of style can be considered vandalism? As for Golf and The Commonwealth Games, they comply with the MOS as these organisations use the UB. No one at the project pages has yet shown this is the case for the official darts bodies nor have they shown any evident that a consensus was reached to use it. This discussion has been open for nearly a month and you have not taken part only accusing me of not liking something. Your edit has been reverted. Bjmullan (talk) 16:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Bjmullan, may I suggest you stop this right now? This is WizOfOz and myself, against you. Our common sense on the NI flags issue, against your lack of consensus. You have not proven that the Ulster banner should not be used on sports articles, and specifically darts articles, and unless you stop this, either of us (WizOfOz or myself) will revert your edits. And yes, I do know that the Ulster flag is used in the Commonwealth Games! Yours politely, CFuller (talk) 14:20, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

CFuller what do you want me to stop? Implementing Wikipedia policy on BLP? Implementing the manual of style? No one at this project or at the article page has shown ANY proof that a consensus to go against policy or the MOS has even been discussed never mind reached. Your change has been reverted. Bjmullan (talk) 09:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Apart from issues with MOSFLAG the use of the Ulster Banner is incorrect as it is not the flag of NI. Mo ainm~Talk 11:11, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Flags

There are currently RFCs on the use of flags within lists, including lists within articles; and the use of flags in infoboxes, at WT:MOSICON. This project is potentially affected by the RFC, and constructive comments from members of this WP is welcome.Curb Chain (talk) 00:17, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Rankings

I am the only one who is updating the Darts world rankings and the PDC Order of Merit. I am not saying that I don't want to update them anymore but is there anyone here who will update them as well as me? Wonderwizard (talk) 22:29, June 13 2011 (UTC)

I have edited the PDC Order of Merit in the past, and can do so again if I am able to. CFuller (talk) 14:35, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

RFC - Use of the Ulster Banner in Darts articles

Should Darts articles use the Ulster Banner to represent players from Northern Ireland? Bjmullan (talk) 18:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I oppose the use of the Ulster Banner in Darts articles for a number of reasons.

1. It contravenes the Manual of Style (icons) in a couple of areas:

a. Do not use flags to indicate location of birth, residence, or death.

b. Overbroad use of flags with politicized connotations (which mentions the Ulster Banner specifically). See point 3 & 4 below for more information.

2. It contravenes the Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles) which states “if the organisation uses no particular flag or banner, do not use any flag.” Neither the BDO or the WDF use the Ulster Banner or any flags for that matter. The Irish MOS has been a very stable set of guidelines which have been used very successfully in contentious areas such as the Derry/Londonderry naming dispute.

3. The Ulster Banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland as Northern Ireland has no official symbol other than the Union Flag.

4. The Ulster Banner is considered by many people as a symbol of the sectarian divide in Northern Ireland. See Northern Ireland flags issue for more information.

5 As the Good Friday Agreement states that all people born in Northern Ireland have the right to both British and Irish citizenship the addition of the Ulster Banner is making the assumption that the person has not chosen to be Irish. The argument that the flag is used to show place of birth is weak as this is not always clear to the reader and in any cases this practise goes against the MOS (see 1a above). Bjmullan (talk) 18:13, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• I guess the only reason you oppose this flag is that youre from the nationalist community in ulster and just don't like it. Full Stop. 212.183.128.107 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:50, 16 May 2011 (UTC).

• Political red herrings aside, I think the real question is whether or not reliable sources use flags next to players for darts results (like you see for golf, Commonwealth Games, football, etc.), and here is an example of one WP:RS that does, including Northern Ireland. Therefore, I do not see a problem with Wikipedia's darts results. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:16, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

As has already been pointed out none of the official darts organisations use the banner and therefore I believe the MOS applies. Also not sure if the Lakeside Country Club could be consider a reliable source. Bjmullan (talk) 08:04, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

That's the website for the 2010 BDO World Darts Championship, linked from the BDO website, so yes, it is reliable. You can get additional opinions at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard if you still disagree. Darts websites don't seem to have as professional design and style as those of larger sporting organisations, so I would attribute the lack of flag usage to that instead of a specific decision to exclude the Northern Ireland flag. For example, this WDF page and this BDO page have plain text results in a list, instead of the superior page layout style used by this WikiProject (utilising tournament bracket templates, etc.). Here is a results table that does use bracket formatting, but it uses country codes instead of flag images for each player, perhaps because the results are rendered in a black-and-white PDF file instead of incorporating coloured flag icons. I think it is clear that darts is one of several sports where England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are treated as peers of other countries. Other examples are football, golf, and the Commonwealth Games. If there is consensus that the NIR flag icon is acceptable for Wikipedia articles on those other sports, why not darts? What's the difference? It should not be just because of the relative scarcity of web pages that go to the extra trouble of using flag images instead of plain text. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:43, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Well I don't know too much about darts, apart from playing it in the bar, but I know a bit about flags. To say we shouldn't use the Ulster Banner because it is not the official flag of Northern Ireland is stretching a point to extremes. We are not bound here by the official or otherwise status of flags, nor are we bound solidly to the MOS (a guideline). To me it's sensible to use this flag as a quick reference to the country from which a player originates. I would also say that to claim BLP as a reason for not using this particular flag is also going to extremes. If the darts editors are happy with the use of this flag, as the consensus seems to be, then I'm happy to support them. WizOfOz (talk) 18:57, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Further to above, since the consensus is clearly to retain the NI flag I'll place it back in the article. WizOfOz (talk) 21:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

No this RfC hasn't ran its course yet and editors are now only starting to become aware of it. Mo ainm~Talk 21:36, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps WizOfOz you could lay out below why you fell that the consensus is clearly to retain the flag. Remember that this is not about votes but about reasoned argument, something that you have so far failed to do. Bjmullan (talk) 22:08, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the links Andrwsc but your original research as to why flags are not used is irrelevant, I could use both links as examples that flags are not used by the sport. Using my own OR I could claim that they made a specific decision to leave the flags out as they don't use them Mo ainm~Talk 22:09, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Point of information to correct Bjmullan's assertion at point 5 above - people in Northern Ireland have the right to choose Republic of Ireland citizenship, but they are all UK citizens (not a matter of choice). So it does not follow that a person who has chosen to have ROI citizenship is not therefore a UK citizen. In any case, this point is a red herring, because the person's citizenship is irrelevant to the question of whether or not he represents NI at darts and then whether or not the NI flag is appropriate to use in such a context. Mooretwin (talk) 11:27, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Mooretwin your point is incorrect as not all people born in the UK (including NI) have a right to UK citizenship but must apply for it (see here for more information). Bjmullan (talk) 12:05, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Whatever. I was speaking in general terms, as if you didn't know! Mooretwin (talk) 18:00, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

@Mo ainm: You totally miss my point. There is no original research involved. My point is that flag icon usage is a style issue, not a content issue (therefore, no OR), and I mused that Wikipedia has a more polished style than some sports websites, but less so than others. I see no problem with using that style on darts results pages, in the same way that style is acceptable for a handful of other sports where players from Northern Ireland are involved. We should not constrain the desired page layout style for Wikipedia's darts articles because of the limited style used by some of the reliable sources. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:23, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for clarification, my feeling on the issue of flags is known and I am not a fan even more so in events like Darts, Tennis and Golf which are individual events if it can be shown that these players represented NI and that the NI governing body of Darts use the flag then we would have a different argument. But at present IMO the flags are only being used to represent the birth place of dart players and this is what I believe that some darts websites are actually doing. Also add that it isn't an Ulster Banner issue but an issue with the use of all flags. Mo ainm~Talk 18:31, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

To that last point I agree. The essential question here has nothing to do with "sectarian symbols" or citizenship or legislation. The question is that: if a reliable source shows (for example) the following in a darts result page: Daryl Gurney (NIR), then is there a problem with Wikipedia using that reliable source, but formatting that name as Daryl Gurney? I think there are arguments to be made both ways (and there is an active discussion currently going on at WT:MOSICON), but I wholly reject the idea that it is acceptable to have Phil Taylor in a Wikipedia tournament bracket but Gurney's name should have (NIR) instead. It should be all-or-none with respect to flag icons. Singling out Northern Ireland by using a different style adds a political POV that is completely inappropriate for a darts tournament article. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:44, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I would rather they were all removed as they add nothing IMO and the similarity between both flags you used would not be picked up on. Also as I stated they are not representing their repective countries but themselves, and with the UB we also have the political aspect like it or not and it makes an assumption on the player that they identify with that flag when we all know that not everyone does. Mo ainm~Talk 18:53, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

The point about players not identifying with the flag - that applies to residents of all countries. There's lots of people who don't identify with the flag of their homeland. There's nothing we can do about that here unless they make their views known. I really don't see what the problem with flags is. They are widely used in publications other than Wikipedia. Seems to me the manual of style wants some work doing it to make it less restrictive. WizOfOz (talk) 19:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Granted I might be from American and hate the Stars and Stripes but if I represent them then tough that is the flag used by that country and it is the official flag of that country. But there is a big difference when the flag being used is not an official flag and there is no evidence that the governing body of Northern Ireland Darts use it. Mo ainm~Talk 19:38, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Is this all about the fact that the UB is not the so-called "official flag" of Northern Ireland? If so, I don't really rate that as a problem. Maybe the usage or not by certain sporting bodies is relavent (in some circumstances) but I fail to see that because the government of Northern Ireland have not declared the flag "offical" is some respect it shouldn't be used in darts articles and any other article. WizOfOz (talk) 19:54, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what you are saying here could you clarify? Mo ainm~Talk 19:59, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

The point about the official status of the flag is maybe just not an issue. For instance, is the Cross of St George an "official" flag of England? The Scottish Saltire has official status right enough, but the flag of England? The status of St George Cross is arguably equivalent to that of the UB. WizOfOz (talk) 20:04, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I think there is some prevailing opinion that just because "governing bodies" like FIFA or the PGA TOUR use flags in their website design, that they are somehow "official" for those sports, but if the BDO, PDC, etc. websites don't use flags, then they aren't "official" for darts. I reject both conclusions; they are just style decisions. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:10, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Andrwsc it's not that they are official is just that for one the Irish MOS states if an organisation doesn't use the UB then it shouldn't be used. I do agree that it should be all or nothing and I'm for no flags. Whether people like it or not flags in general are powerful political symbols and best avoided. Bjmullan (talk) 21:20, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

No, I disagree. They are not best avoided. They are useful. They might be powerful political symbols in Northern Ireland but Wikipedia shouldn't go out of its way to accommodate the views of some from that small country at the expense of a useful facility (visual flags). Just look at the 2011 Darts article. What do we see - loads of flags, and almost immediately we can glean useful information from this highly visual overview - the fact that the vast majority of the participants are from England. You couldn't quickly get that information if the flags weren't there; they are useful and people need to lighten up about their use. WizOfOz (talk) 21:30, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I have just looked at that article Wiz, 2011 UK Open Darts is the epitome of what is wrong with the use of flags in articles. No way it can be said that that article is readable with the flags everywhere in it. Mo ainm~Talk 22:03, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Trust me WizOfOz they are powerful throughout the world... , , . Try putting those flag on for someone who plays darts from Munich, Tbilisi or Port Elizabeth. Even the St George cross has issues which are covered in the flags article. So please don't dismiss this has some sort of Irish problem. Also agree with Mo, 233 flags in one article is just wrong! Bjmullan (talk) 22:06, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Please please, remove those flags. Using flags like that is just wrong. We had the same problem at BRICS and BRIC.Curb Chain (talk) 00:14, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

• Having read all of this I think I agree with Bjmullan that it is better not to use flags at all in this situation. The controversy they add and the overemphasis on nationality seem to do more harm than any good their proponents allege they may do. --John (talk) 22:35, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

BJM there is just no comparison between some of the flags you've highlighted and those on the darts article. Every flag and symbol used anywhere will have its detractors. Controversy - what controversy? Let's be clear on this; the flags are not controversial, it's just that some editors don't like them, or so it would appear. There's nothing wrong with that, but throughout Wikipedia the view would seem to be that flags servemany purposes. Anyway, should we not let the darts people sort this one out? I'm happy to defer to their consensus, whatever it might be. WizOfOz (talk) 22:47, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

WizOfOz, it is your opinion that there is no comparison between these flags and this is a shared project and we all have a part to play in improving it. Removing 233 flags from one article would be a great start. Bjmullan (talk) 22:58, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

No, I believe it would be a stupid thing to do, but I note the fact that you believe it would be a great start. Also, be careful when drawing comparisons between the Nazi flag and other national symbols. WizOfOz (talk) 23:01, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

WizOfOz I have not drawn any comparisons between the Nazi flag and any other symbol. It was put there to show that flags are very powerful symbols. Bjmullan (talk) 23:09, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

You said "WizOfOz, it is your opinion that there is no comparison between these flags". This strongly suggests that you believe there is a comparison. If I've misread it please accept my apologies, but if this is the case then your wording leaves something to be desired, and in any case it's probably not a good idea under any circumstances to wave the Swastika in these kinds of discussions. WizOfOz (talk) 23:15, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

As per John above, I also believe that the flags serve no real purpose in this situation, and its why the MOS leans against unnecessary flag cruft. --HighKing (talk) 00:19, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I was actual wrong with the flag count at 2011 UK Open Darts it's 404! Have a look at this which is the same article with no flag. Go on tell me that the original article is easier to read. Tell me that when you look at professional publication that you expect to be bombarded with flags. Of course 404 is only the starting count as the competition hasn't even started yet. Bjmullan (talk) 22:20, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the original article is easier to read, and what's more, is more pleasing on the eye. 4, 40, 404, it matters not. Your version of the article is quite hopeless. Whenever darts players, or any sportsmen for that matter, are mentioned in the media it's nearly always mentioned where they come from. That information is missing in your version. I think the word "weak" sums it up. WizOfOz (talk) 22:25, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Thankfully your opinion both here and at the WP:MOSICON discussion is in the minority. As the discussion taking place at WP:MOSICON has been noted here any recommendations that are agreed there will be implemented here. I know that you are big on consensus. Bjmullan (talk) 22:31, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

It's not in the minority here, and I note that we are still waiting for the darts guys to comment. As for the other discussion it looks like it's bogged down a bit. WizOfOz (talk) 22:36, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Simple solution - if the Ulster Banner is used by darts organisations to represent Northern Irish players then it should be used here with no problem ignoring the blatant anti-Ulster Banner campaign being waged by certain PoV editors which has now reached darts. If they don't then we don't. Pure and simple.

If the Ulster flag was such a sectarian, loyalist symbol - then Roman Catholic Rory McIlroy doesn't seem to make the same association: see here and here. Looks totally at ease and with a real genuine smile. Bjmullans flag comparison statement is also absolutely stupid and rediculous especially if you tried to compare the Ulster Banner to the ones he used as his examples. In fact i'd say Bjmullan's statement was very inciteful in that regard. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:38, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

By the way, 2011 UK Open Darts, doesn't look that bad. If there is a problem with too many flags, then why not just use flags for the "Format and qualifiers" section, with none after that. We could work it the same as wikilinks - if someone is wikilinked (or flagged) then we don't have to wikilink (flag) them again later. Also this flagless demo looks horrendous and would need vastly improved. Better readability or not, it makes the original article look far better. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:54, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

In fact i noticed Bjmullan advertised this RFC at the Ireland MoS talk page, however fails to post an advert at the Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Northern_Ireland.

Not all editors who are members or watch the NI WikiProject may be members or watchers of the Ireland IMoS WikiProject. As this is a matter initially and mostly still is to do with something to do with Northern Ireland or Northern Irish people, would it not have been relevant to post an RfC advert there as well?

In fact do these darts articles even qualify as Ireland related articles other than having names of people who are from the island? If not then why the above advert Bjmullan in the Ireland IMoS WikiProject? Seeing the failure to even alert the NI WikiProject, this could well imply a possiblity of canvassing. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:34, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Two things Mabuska. I'm glad that you agree with my position and that of the IMOS. You may already be aware but neither the BDO or the WDO use the UB. Secondly, might I ask you to assume good faith. I was unaware of the NI project but will now rectify the situation by posting the RFC notice there. Bjmullan (talk) 16:03, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Personally i believe that as long as flags are used to represent people in sports, then we should use the Ulster Banner to represent someone regardless of whether an organisation does or not. The flag is the most easily identifiable symbol for Northern Ireland and it is only a problem for those who have prejudices.

On that 400-odd flag article, County codes such as (ENG) and (NIR) could be a way forward as suggested above, though a legend would have to be provided so editors who don't them know what they are. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:23, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

On good faith, comparing the Ulster Banner to the flag of Nazi Germany, or the U.S.S.R. is very bad faith. They are nowhere close to being comparable and i'd urge caution in making such inciteful comments. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:23, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

The flag is the most easily identifiable symbol for Northern Ireland - only if you have 20-20 vision as it really does look like the England flag at small sizes. As I have already pointed out to another editor I didn't make that comparison. Maybe you should ask the people who suffered job discrimination, housing discrimination, electoral injustice and gerrymandering during the period of that government what they thing? Bjmullan (talk) 19:43, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

All in the past Bjmullan, all in the past. Move on and leave the prejudices behind. Is the US flag associated today by most African-Americans with its former oppression and discrimination of them? No as times change. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:21, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we are interested in all that job discrimination trivia. One of the problems with this endless discussion is the users strong POV and wanting the wiki to reflect that. One idea is for all the involved users to step back and allow uninvolved users to look at it and make a simple uninvolved decision. Rory , the golf player is clearly happy to fly the ulster flag. Why don't you just compromise and if a subject is catholic use the Irish tricolor flag and if the subject is protestant then use the ulster flag - or - remove all flags. None of it will make any difference to the reader or to the view out of your window. Off2riorob (talk) 22:38, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Or we could simply follow reliable sources with respect to their flag usage... — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:03, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. As Rory shows in a real world context, the flag is only an issue for those with prejudices. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:21, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes lets follow reliable sources and just remember that none of the official darts bodies use the UB. And yes Mabuska lets move on, the flag of THAT government became defunct 39 years ago. Flogging a dead horse comes to mind. Bjmullan (talk) 21:34, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Difference being Bjmullan THAT flag is more than just a flag for that government. Its still commonly used in various fields other than government so its still a very current in the present thing unlike the old defunct government. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:35, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I have given you a reliable source that uses that flag. It is a logical fallacy to claim that "none of the official darts bodies use the UB" when we have no statement either way. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:51, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Show us a RS, not some holiday park website in the north of England. That is NOT an RS. The IMOS states clearly "or if the organisation uses no particular flag or banner, do not use any flag." I have yet to see any evident from either WDF or the BDO to support it's use. And Andrwsc if we have no statement either way then the onus is on people who wish to use the UB to provide it. Mabuska as for golf that is a different case all together and as this edit here shows I fully support the use of the UB in golf articles. Bjmullan (talk) 22:23, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

You are mistaken if you believe that http://www.lakesideworlddarts.co.uk/scoreboard.php is not a reliable source for the 2010 BDO World Darts Championship article, just because the website is hosted by the (BDO sanctioned) sponsor of the tournament. As I said before, you are welcome to challenge this at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:30, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Done. You can find the entry here. Bjmullan (talk) 17:32, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I have replied there (for RSN editors), but I am annoyed that you have completely misrepresented my comments from above. Here is the summary, repeated here for WP:DARTS readers:

• I claim that http://www.lakesideworlddarts.co.uk/scoreboard.php is most definitely a reliable source for the 2010 BDO World Darts Championship article. The website is hosted by the sponsor and venue for the tournament, and sanctioned by the British Darts Organisation. There are multiple links from www.bdodarts.com to www.lakesideworlddarts.co.uk.
• I claim that darts is one sport in which the nationality of individual competitors is commonly noted by reliable sources, and "nationality" of UK-based people is given as one of England/Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland (similar to golf, for example) and not United Kingdom or Great Britain (similar to tennis, for example). Therefore, it is not inappropriate for darts pages on Wikipedia to also denote that nationality.
• I claim that the choice of using either a flag icon or a country code (e.g. ENG, SCO, NIR, etc.) to represent that nationality is a style choice made by website designers (including Wikipedia) and does not represent any degree of "officialness" about flag usage made the the respective organisation.

— Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:05, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Have a look at the BBC Darts section and you will not find a flag there either. Perhaps someone should tell them that having darts results without 100's of flags looks awful. So now I have offered the BDO, the WDF and the BBC as examples of organisations that do not use flags in Darts. In return you are provide a link to a holiday park. Bjmullan (talk) 18:23, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

This article looks better with flags, including the Ulster Banner. It is utterly irrelevant what the BBC and others do, or don't do, with flags. And what's that about a holiay park? You are misrepresenting what the place is about. WizOfOz (talk) 18:53, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

According to you, WP:ILIKEIT is not a valid reason no more than WP:IDONTLIKEIT Mo ainm~Talk 19:03, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

You are absolutely right WizOfOz. It's not a holiday park but a cabaret and dinner & dance location. Taken from the About Us on the website: Established in 1972, Lakeside is renowned as one of the UK's top venues for star international cabaret, dinner & dancing attracting audiences from all over the world. I wonder if Brian Potter every managed it? Bjmullan (talk) 19:05, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

(ec) @Bjmullan: you still don't get it.
Simply, there are two main questions to answer:

1. Is nationality important for darts results? Do the reliable sources for darts commonly include player nationalities next to their names?
   • And if so, are players from the UK noted as being from the UK (or from "Great Britain"/GBR) or are they noted as being from England, Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland, as appropriate?
2. What is the preferred page layout style for sports results pages, where nationality is important enough that it must be included? Are flag icons acceptable, or should we stick to plain text (country names and/or country codes)?

Issue #1 (and 1b) is a topic for WP:DARTS, and the consensus seems to be clear that yes, it is important, and that England et. al. are used instead of UK/GBR (including your BBC link). Issue #2 is a much broader topic, and should be discussed at WT:Manual of Style (icons), the village pump, etc. I think you are trying to read too much into the style of various web pages, by drawing conclusions about the "officialness" of flags with respect to various organisations. I'd say that's original research. Unless we have a statement that says something like "the BDO does [or does not] endorse the usage of the Northern Ireland flag", we're simply guessing. You've provided RS that do not use flag icons to represent nationality; I've provided RS that do. But so what? The decision to use flag icons or not on Wikipedia is a style decision made by us, not by the decision of other web designers. Should we remove the infobox and tournament bracket templates from our page because the BBC design doesn't include them either? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:09, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify some points about the Ulster Banner. It was the flag of the Northern Ireland government rather than the province of Northern Ireland. However, it was the de-facto flag of the province as well, and to a large extent remains so, especially in unionist communities. It has about as much official standing as the Flag of St George has in England - a country without any government of its own. If the editors here and elsewhere choose to use the flag then so be it. I happen to support that point of view, but I would also support their view if they decided otherwise. I just wish others would be as accommodating. The relentless attempts to remove the UB from here and elsewhere are verging on the disruptive. They add nothing to Wikipedia and are incredibly time-wasting. This discussion should be wound up now. WizOfOz (talk) 19:34, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I've been editing for several years and know all about this "sectarian symbol". I am always disgusted when political POV works its way into sports pages like this. But the fact remains that despite any "official" status or lack thereof, the flag is still widely used in a sporting context, whenever Northern Ireland is mentioned alongside England, Scotland, and Wales, and not all together as the UK or GBR. For some sports (e.g. football and golf), it is obvious, but it seems to me that darts is being singled out here, by virtue of it having far fewer (and less professional) web resources than more mainstream sports. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:43, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Yep, the prejudice is tiresome. In my opinion it would appear that when they are concentrating on darts as they think there is shaky foundations for its use, so they're going for the jugular to get it removed. Its all part of a systematic campaign to remove the symbol wherever possible to suit their own biased PoV, and you can throw as many WP:AGF's at me as you wish, its the truth. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:04, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Andrwsc, I think you will find that there is only one question and that is clearly laid out at the top of this RFC section. As for OR I think you might want to look at all of your I claim that statements above. You may claim something but you have yet to prove anything. While your reading up on OR perhaps you should also look at WP:Weight. As for Mabuska and WizOfOz, as Mo has already pointed out WP:ILIKEIT is not really a valid argument for anything. The fact remains that two MOS's goes against the use of the UB and I have presented three RS's (BDO, WDF and the BBC) to back up my position. Bjmullan (talk) 21:16, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

You really don't seem to read what Andrwsc is saying on the MoS's. In regards to me, don't mistake disagreeing with prejudiced editors for WP:ILIKEIT Bjmullan. Just because i said what i'd personally prefer, i do actually draw a line between that and my general editing. If you want to WikiLawyer, i could throw WP:IDONTLIKEIT at you, but whats the point. For this article i could WikiLawyer with WP:NORULES which trumps all but its interpretation is debatable as well. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:38, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Eh? You put words into my mouth at RSN (User:Andrwsc has put forward this (a website for the Lakeside Country Club) as a Reliable Source to show that the organisations uses the Ulster Banner.) and therefore, I had to clarify what I actually said. Also, reliable sources have nothing to do with Wikipedia's Manual of Style! Reliable sources are relevant with respect to content, not presentation. Please stop with these red herrings. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:42, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I wish you would keep your prejudices to yourself Mabuska it is tiresome and you sound like a whining child repeating the same old crap. Stick to the topic and not what you think the motives of editors are. At least Andrwsc is attempting to resolve this issue. Mo ainm~Talk 21:45, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

So its prejudiced to counter the prejudiced campaign to remove a flag from Wikipedia to appease a politicaa agenda? Intersting take on it Mo ainm. Also is the constant attempt to remove it wherever possible not a bigger example of a whining child? Just a thought for you to ponder. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

We're starting to get a bit off-track (and I share in that blame), but can we return to the two questions I posed above? I'm trying to get to the crux of the issue here. I think this RFC should focus on the importance of nationality for darts results, but we should look elsewhere for a broader guideline on how that nationality should be expressed with respect to the Manual of Style. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:25, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

To repeat:

1. Is nationality important for darts results? Do the reliable sources for darts commonly include player nationalities next to their names?
   • And if so, are players from the UK noted as being from the UK (or from "Great Britain"/GBR) or are they noted as being from England, Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland, as appropriate?
2. What is the preferred page layout style for sports results pages, where nationality is important enough that it must be included? Are flag icons acceptable, or should we stick to plain text (country names and/or country codes)?

Stop trying to hijack this RFC. The objective is clearly set out at the start but I will repeat it here for people who do not want to hear:

Should Darts articles use the Ulster Banner to represent players from Northern Ireland? Bjmullan (talk) 22:39, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

It's not a hijacking attempt, I'm trying to be constructive. Clearly you are too close-minded to see the big picture. As for your original question, I'd say that you've got all the comments you are likely to get from here. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:57, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I think we should keep the RfC onto the original arguement without distracting it away to a broader picture at the moment. Also did anyone notice if flags where used on those websites Bjmullan is quoting for any other country in those articles? If not then why should we keep them as well then? If we must get rid of the Ulster Banner on the grounds Bjmullan is proposing then we should remove all of them. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Now we are getting somewhere, remove all the flags it is an individual sport and they are not representing their respective countries so all that the flags are being used for is to denote nationality which is against MOSFLAG. Mo ainm~Talk 16:35, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

However, the answer to my question #1 seems to be "yes". Almost every reliable source of darts results denotes the player nationality next to their names (e.g. BBC), so it is not unreasonable for Wikipedia pages to also include that information. That leads to question #2, of how nationality should be denoted, and that is a much broader question for flag icon usage than should be answered for WP:DARTS only. It makes no sense that our Manual of Style should be different for darts than for other sports. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:45, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Mabuska and Mo. If the organisation don't use flags at all (which is the case here) then we should not use flags either. Progress at last. Bjmullan (talk) 17:04, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Andrwsc's concerns, and what i suggested in my last message wouldn't solve the whole issue but rather paper over it in one field. However i'd prefer equal treatment for all flags so if there is no case for the use of the Ulster Banner, then there is no case for any other flags.

I'd rather use flags to denote where someone is from rather than imply their nationality (yes i know that sounds oxymoronic). Or if they are representing an international team, say a Northern Ireland darts team in an international match, which uses it. What to replace with if flags must be removed? Country codes (ENG), (NIR) with a legend etc. could be the solution and would cut down on that 400+ flag article. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:29, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Have you a source showing the use of the UB by NI darts I looked at Northern Ireland Darts Organisation site and don't see it anywhere on the page. So you are obviously basing the comment that it is used by NI on another site. Mo ainm~Talk 17:37, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I knew that'd be misread. I wasn't saying they definately do, but rather if a a player plays for a team that may use a flag. I wasn't being definate or actually suggesting a flag is used. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:47, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I think that "organisational usage" is (and always has been) a red herring. Once again, I think that the choice of a flag icon or a textual country name/code is part of Wikipedia's Manual of Style, and that the style choices made on BBC, BDO, Lakeside, etc. websites are independent of our choices. Also, there are very few instances of "national teams" in darts, so don't focus on that. The question is whether or not the pages in Category:Darts tournaments and its subcategories look better with something like or (ENG) next to player names. Personally, I think that icons are more effective on pages such as 2008 Zuiderduin Masters (as a random sample page), especially within the bracket template. Compare these three options:

1

Gary Anderson 91.14

3

1

(SCO) Gary Anderson 91.14

3

1

Gary Anderson (SCO) 91.14

3

— Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:07, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Not sure why you feel that the non use of flags by BDO and NIDO is a red herring if as you say it is the style choice that they don't use them then on the contary our use of flags here is only being used as decoration which as you know is against MOSFLAG. For what it is worth I would prefer the 3rd option that you have provided. Mo ainm~Talk 18:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Whilst i've no problems with any of those three, the third one looks better and more encyclopedic if we were publishing an actual encyclopedia. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:23, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Number 3 for me as well. Looks so much more professional that having an article with hundred's of flags. Bjmullan (talk) 18:40, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Number 1 works for me. Much more professional looking. The tactic of those oppsoing the flags is clear and now well documented here and elsewhere: If the UB can't be removed by itself, then what the hell, get rid of all flags. That ensures its demise. They are also persistent, trying to grind down the opposition. Leave it to the Darts article editors. If they want flags, fine, if they don't fine. The views of those opposed to the use of flags for the own reasons should not be a major consideration here. This debate should be closed now. We're going round in circles and it's more time wasting. WizOfOz (talk) 22:59, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

The discusson has certainly been reduced to a simple ILIKEIT or IDONTLIKEIT opinion on flag icons. I am certainly convinced that nationality of darts players is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia's results pages. The only question is how, and that's a MOS issue. I am completely convinced that all nations ought to get the same treatment on our darts pages; there is nothing special about Northern Ireland's darts players. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:53, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I'll probably pull out of this one now and leave it up to you darts guys. I'll say one thing in favour of the flags though. When I look at a typical darts article about a competition - see the latest one at the beginning of June, for example - the flags give an immediate overview of the spread of nationalities. Straight away you can see that the majority of players are from England in this case. This is good, useful information that couldn't be determined anywhere near as quickly if you had to resort to text. This is what pictures, icons and graphics are all about; they can rapidly impart information that is otherwise not that easy to extract. That's why they are used the world over to augment text and have been since time immemorial. A picture paints a thousand words (and so does a flag). WizOfOz (talk) 07:47, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Andrwsc I kind of agree with you that it's down to MOS. And on that point the MOS is clear, don't use flags. WizOfOz as far a leaving this to the dart's guys. Who are these invisible people? Not many have taken part in this discussion. And you must be a bit younger than me cos the England flag and UB look VERY alike at icon size (glasses!) and a Northern Ireland player can be easily missed. I still think that the way the BBC lay the results out is the best. And let's be honest they are the professionals when it comes to web design. Bjmullan (talk) 22:00, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

So can the Darts project provide any evidence that they decided (via a discussion and consensus) to go against the MOS with relation to flags? If not this is an open and shut case. Bjmullan (talk) 21:40, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Do you wonder why any darts editors haven't got involved? Same reason why most neutrals don't get involved in Irish related discussions. Also i don't think its the BBC that designs their websites, but the firm or professionals they hire to design the site for them. And i agree with Andrwsc, all nations must be given equal treatment, however as WizOfOz also said, the proposal above is simply the same as removing the UB via the back door.

I also don't see how exactly the use of the flags here fails Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(icons)#Flags. Though it does state that "Words as the primary means of communication should be given greater precedent over flags and flags should not change the expected style or layout of infoboxes or list to the detriment of words.", and option 2 and 3 above go along to meeting that requirement - but it all depends on the interpretation of it. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

So back to the issue and not what a certain editor thinks it is, what we have is that neither the British Darts Organisation or the Northern Ireland Darts Organisation use the UB for NI or any flags for that matter and without those using it we then are into a situation were it is a choice of the editors here if we use it or not. I have no problem with the use of the UB if it is used by the representing body but in this case it doesn't seem to be used. Mo ainm~Talk 17:07, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

It is related to the general issue of flags, and well no flags are used by those organisations for any player or whatever country never mind Northern Ireland, and as the flag MoS says we should give preference to words over flags, so why should we keep the rest? I would back adopting option 3 to replace all darts flags for all countries - it would also ensure equal treatment for all countries and make some articles look far better and less visually distracting. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I get the impression that the majority of the people involved in this discussion (for whatever reason) prefer option 3 as proposed by Andrwsc. Bjmullan (talk) 22:12, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Mabuska I agree and have stated numerous times that we shouldn't have flags in articles unless they add information that is not provided by text. Mo ainm~Talk 12:17, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Vote

The following will give people involved (and those not yet involved so far) the opportunity to vote on what is the best option to be adopted by the Dart's project. Please keep you comments brief and use One and Two to denote which you support. Please also remember that Wikipedia is not a democracy but I believe that we have taken this discussion as far as it can go and now it's time for action:

By that you mean time to impose your POV if at all possible. WizOfOz (talk) 22:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

1

Gary Anderson 91.14

3

2

Gary Anderson (SCO) 91.14

3

• Two - After lengthy discussion this seems to be best compromise and the option supported by the majority of the participate of this discussion so far. Bjmullan (talk) 22:12, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe it is. it is not a compromise, it is an attempt to impose your POV, which states that in effect if we can't get rid of the UB we'll get rid of all flags. This is apparent from the discussions here and elsewhere. WizOfOz (talk) 22:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

@Bjmullan - Wow 4 out of 5 participants, really strong consensus.

@WizOfOz - To be honest WizOfOz, the manual of style guidelines on flags states we should opt for words over images, and in some darts articles the flags are distracting or over the top and we should be consistent in our treatment of darts articles. The IMoS in regards to flags states that unless the Ulster Banner is used by a sport organisation as it is for the Northern Ireland football team, then it shouldn't be used. There is nothing to back up your stance WizOfOz.

The country code version does look very professional and more encyclopedic. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:48, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

As I noted earlier, the flags provide a quick visual overview of the spread of nationalities. Therefore, I persoanlly think the flags do add something, but I'm happy to accept the opinions of those who actually care about these articles, rather than those who - let's be frank here - are trying to "game the system". The hatred of the UB is well known here and let's be clear on one thing. If, by chance there was no UB in the darts article that came to the attention of Bjmullan, well then it wouldn't have come to the attention of Bjmullan and we wouldn't be having this debate. It is driven purely by a minority dislike for one particular flag, nothing more, nothing less. The continuance of the debate is just a smokescreen, and Bjmuallan's remark above hammers it home; "It's now time for action" - again as I noted earlier, this demonstatres a persistence in these matters that won't accept no for an answer. WizOfOz (talk) 22:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Another point has just come to mind. If, early on in this debate, it had been agreed to replace the UB with the Union Flag, as other POV pushers are doing elsewhere in Wikipedia, then that would have been it. No one now would be here trying to get rid of all flags. The anti UB squad would have moved happily on to the next target. In other words, they don't give a FF about flags or the lack of them in these types of article. They have just the one objective. This needs raising at the Ireland MOS (flags) or whatever project page it is. Who came up with the guideline in the first place? The UB has as much standing in terms of NI as the Cross of St George does regarding England. It's the de facto flag of NI, like it or not and I think the guideline needs altering, so let's go and have a never ending debate over there, rather than here. WizOfOz (talk) 23:10, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Whether the guideline needs altering is a seperate issue altogether WizOfOz, meaning this discussion does not have to wait to follow the guidelines that are currently in place. If you succeed in getting the guidelines altered, then you can use it to reopen this issue. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:10, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

• One I think the scoring average and country name text need to be separated, so using a icon for the country helps with the layout. Also, I see no reason whatsoever for darts to get a different page layout treatment than other international sports, where flag icons are widely used within tournament bracket templates. It's a virtual style standard on en.wiki, and a darts project talk page is not the place for a referendum about this style. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:12, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia guidelines are only guidelines i guess. There is no explicit law here that states we have to enforce them to the letter of the law, it evens makes it clear itself they are only guidelines. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:37, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

• One I agree with many of the points that Andrwsc has brought up. Using flag icons in tournament brackets is common practice on en.wiki - why should darts tournament articles be any different? CFuller (talk) 12:27, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
• One Totally agree with Andrwsc and CFuller. Don't see any compelling reason why darts tournaments articles should be treated different than other sport tournaments articles. Sir Armbrust ^{Talk to me} _Contribs 09:29, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

CL Darts

I changed the Group layout into this 2011_Championship_League_Darts#Group_stage. It is pretty compact and easy to edit. That any good? It looked like this before: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2011_Championship_League_Darts&oldid=452742081#Group_One Cheers. -Koppapa (talk) 20:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I personally think it is a positive change, it looks alot cleaner and more concise than the previous version. Good Work. User:joesayers ^talk 20:18, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

2011 World Grand Prix

Could someone please finish off the stats on the 2011 World Grand Prix? Wonderwizard (talk) 17:28, October 11 (UCT)

A week and a half on and it looks like no one is listening. I might have to delete the stats if no one is going to finish them. Wonderwizard (talk) 20:11, October 22 (UCT)

Are those needed anyway. Its a lot of work to update those, original research as there is no full source and one thing that stiked me just now, it doesn't even have a won/loss column. -Koppapa (talk) 15:14, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

PDC Pro Tour

The article is a mess. Anyone up for a rewrite? The list of winners of every championship is not needed, article should have a browder overview. Also there is only one ref. I'd participate. -Koppapa (talk) 09:20, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd be happy to start rewriting the article. Any ideas as to what should be included? CFuller (talk) 14:12, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

A clear definition first. UK open qualifiers really part of the Pro Tour? Who is allowed to play the pro tour, first any pdpa member i guess, since last year anyone having a tour card. prize pools and entry fees. events which pc order of merit players qualify to. format, open draw? seeded players? draw after every round or is the bracket known at the start. all of that is more important than the list of winners. -Koppapa (talk) 09:30, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I've started work on this article - you can see my work so far here. As there is still a lot of work to be done, please feel free to add, edit or remove anything to improve this, and add some citations if you can. As for the lists of winners, should we just remove them altogether or change them into something more concise? CFuller (talk) 22:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

THe article looks fine. It could be replaced instantly. A few more sources would be good. -Koppapa (talk) 17:21, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Andy Hamilton (darts player)

So he is playing the final tonight. The article could use some work. More references and so on. It had over 6,000 views yesterday. And it will be more today and high views ion the following days. -Koppapa (talk) 11:42, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

2011 in darts

What's up with these yearly articles? THey are unsourced and just create redundancy. I'd say get rid of them. -Koppapa (talk) 19:53, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I would say it would be better to split these articles to YEAR PDC season and YEAR BDO season. Armbrust, B.Ed. ^{Let's talk}_{about my edits?} 20:24, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

RfC on the use of flag icons for sportspeople

An RfC discussion about the MOS:FLAG restriction on the use of flag icons for sportspeople has been opened at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. We invite all interested participants to provide their opinion here. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:53, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

1995 WDC World Darts Championship

Hi, can someone provide some reliable cites for this article? The PDC site seemed to be showing that their data had come from Wikipedia! Eldumpo (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

AfD opened

I just opened an AfD on several unreferenced articles on darts tournaments. Please opine at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charlotte Open. Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

2013 PDC World Darts Championship PDPA Qualifier

Notable? I doubt it. Please no articles for every Players Championship next. The days of the Premier League get much more media attention and they don't have own articles. -Koppapa (talk) 14:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Romanian Darts Federation for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Romanian Darts Federation is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Romanian Darts Federation until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. The Whispering Wind (talk) 21:18, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Copyright concerns related to your project

This notice is to advise interested editors that a Contributor copyright investigation has been opened which may impact this project. Such investigations are launched when contributors have been found to have placed copyrighted content on Wikipedia on multiple occasions. It may result in the deletion of images or text and possibly articles in accordance with Wikipedia:Copyright violations. The specific investigation which may impact this project is located here.

All contributors with no history of copyright problems are welcome to contribute to CCI clean up. There are instructions for participating on that page. Additional information may be requested from the user who placed this notice, at the process board talkpage, or from an active CCI clerk. Thank you. MER-C 12:53, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

PRODded articles

• 2010 Romanian International Darts Open
• 2011 Romanian International Darts Open
• 2013 Romanian International Darts Open

As a ranked and televised tournament I am sure Romanian International Darts Open is notable but how about the years' pages? I'll leave it to the Project to decide whether to lift the PROD. The Whispering Wind (talk) 15:28, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't think they are notable enough. -Koppapa (talk) 14:19, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Player infobox

Just thought I'd bring to your attention that none of the players have The Masters in their infobox. I've tried and failed to put it in a few times.Perfectamundo (talk) 01:13, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I've tried to add it to the Infobox. It shows on the template but not on player's pages so I'm stuck. Spc 21 (talk) 01:41, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

And where is the problem? It is easy: "| The Masters = " is used at players articles, when the template uses "| data36 = {{{Masters|}}}". They don't match, either add or get rid of the "the". Cheers. -Koppapa (talk) 07:09, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Major legends

Someone just added all majors to the legend of many players, edits like this one. Is that needed, it looks more complicated especially for players who only ever reached one major final. -Koppapa (talk) 18:26, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed the Hamilton one looks ridiculous. Should be how we used to do it in my opinion. Spc 21 (talk) 23:34, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Huybreechts looks like this with only one final. We should talk to this user. @Hollycochra: If it is just to standardize colors, maybe an invisible comment could be added that shows the colors that could come up. -Koppapa (talk) 08:47, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I've left a message on their talk page. I will remove the redundant finals when I come across them as there's no point in having them listed if they haven't played in them. Spc 21 (talk) 13:21, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I've removed all the redundant finals I could find. Not sure about all the different colours used now as, like you said, it looks more complicated. Spc 21 (talk) 14:05, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, the World Championships, World Matchplay, World Grand Prix and the Premier League should have their own colours. The rest should fall under "other". Boddefan2009 (talk) 19:51, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree. The recent changes made seem random with no discussion anywhere. Spc 21 (talk) 21:58, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!

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Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

World Champions without pictures

Here is a list of some world champions without pictures

• Michael van Gerwen
• Martin Adams
• Stephen Bunting
• Scott Waites
• Lisa Ashton
• Anastasia Dobromyslova
• Trina Gulliver

Could someone with a better understanding of importing pictures into Wikipedia and knowledge of copyright policy please do this?Perfectamundo (talk) 00:55, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand that either. But could these be used: Waites, Adams -Koppapa (talk)

Thanks. I will copy them into their talk pages.Perfectamundo (talk) 18:42, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Results table change

I would like to plead for a change in the Performance timeline of all darts players. At the moment the standard is:

Performance timeline

Tournament	1998	1999	2000	2001	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010	2011		2012	2013	2014	2015
PDC World Championship	DNP							3R	2R	QF	1R	1R	3R	SF		QF	3R	1R	3R
UK Open	Not held					3R	3R	4R	5R	QF	4R	QF	3R	4R		QF	5R	RU	3R
Las Vegas Desert Classic	Not held				DNP	RR	DNP		QF	RU	2R	QF	Not held

Performance Table Legend
DNP	Did not play at the event	DNQ	Did not qualify for the event	NYF	Not yet founded	#R	lost in the early rounds of the tournament (WR = Wildcard round, RR = Round robin)
QF	lost in the quarter-finals	SF	lost in the semi-finals	RU	lost in the final	W	won the tournament

I would like to change this to:

Performance timeline

Tournament	1998	1999	2000	2001	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010	2011		2012	2013	2014	2015
PDC World Championship	DNP							L32	L32	QF	L64	L64	L16	SF		QF	L16	L64	L16
UK Open	Not held					L64	L64	L64	L16	QF	L32	QF	L64	L32		QF	L16	RU	L64
Las Vegas Desert Classic	Not held				DNP	L24G	DNP		QF	RU	L16	QF	Not held

Performance Table Legend
DNP	Did not play at the event	DNQ	Did not qualify for the event	NYF	Not yet founded	L#	lost in the early rounds of the tournament (G = Group stage)
QF	lost in the quarter-finals	SF	lost in the semi-finals	RU	lost in the final	W	won the tournament

First of all this gives a better indication of how far a player got in a tournament. As the first round could be the Last 64, the last 32 or even the last 16. The G in the table means a player lost during the group stages of a tournament. Secondly not all results of the past are archived. For example in the Performance timeline of Richie Burnett it is listed that he lost in the first round of the World Masters in 1985. However this is incorrect, A lot of matches were played beforehand but the tournament is only archived through the last 32. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 14:27, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

It's not just darts that uses the current system. Tennis and snooker also use it even though 128 players are in the first round in Slams and only 64 are in ATP World Tour Events and only 8 in the Tour Finals. Similar story with snooker. Why do these sports use the current system? For neatness I would suggest. These tables are designed for a quick glance and to be able to process the information quickly. Your proposed change lacks this. I would also argue your change is more confusing as putting the L16 in the Masters, one would assume the player had won matches to reach that stage when in fact they have lost in the first round. It's also far more common for commentators etc. to mention that the players are in the first round, second round rather than the last 64, last 32. Spc 21 (talk) 14:52, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Just looked at the timeline on Ronnie Baxter's page which you originally added using the current system and then changed without any consensus. You cannot surely think that the way it looks now is accessible to a casual reader? You would need some fairly detailed knowledge of darts to understand it as it looks like a code for something. Spc 21 (talk) 14:56, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

World Cup Singles is a WDF Major and should be in darts players infoboxes

I have just joined the Darts project having spent the last 3 years editing on the WikiProject Tennis/Members and as my father was a county player for then Clwyd in North Wales and I play darts myself but only at city level. I have recently updated the Template:WDF Tournaments in line with the WDF 2016 calendar here http://www.dartswdf.com/calendar/2016] The WDF World Cup Singles title is classified as a Major and has not been included in the player info box also per the http://www.dartsdatabase.co.uk/EventList.aspx ts classed as a Major.--Navops47 (talk) 07:38, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

WDF rankings editing

Hi, I've noticed over the past few days a lot of articles have been edited by several users to favour the WDF ranking structure, with several players having their articles edited to show their ranking in the WDF as opposed to the BDO. Although I'm not a frequent enough editor on darts articles to know the favoured ranking structure, I assumed BDO was the standard as it's more frequently used; should these articles be edited back to showing BDO rankings? Thanks. Lewcario (talk) 03:43, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

In reposnse to your enquiry the WDF is the world governing body of darts of which the BDO is a member national organisation representing the UK it is not however the global body responsible for darts and world rankings the BDO's rankings are for players who are only registered with the BDO by invitation and they are used to determine the seedings for BDO organised tournaments particluary its 3 Majors World Championships, Master, Trophy. The WDF is a similar body to the International Tennis Federation of which the UK representative is the LTA who determime the seedings for the Grand Slam tournament tWimbledon Championships.--Navops47 (talk) 10:44, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Nevertheless, it still seems strange that some players should have their BDO ranking displayed on their articles, which has been the custom for the recent past with all WDF/BDO players, while some are having it changed to their WDF ranking when they have both. Any reason for going round changing all the articles to favour the WDF now when the BDO ranking has been used on Wikipedia articles in the past? I understand that you may think the WDF rankings may be 'more accurate' but the BDO rankings are what have been used on Wikipedia articles and it may seem confusing by showing conflicting rankings. I wondered if anyone else from the WikiProject could advise me as to which ranking system is favoured. Thanks. Lewcario (talk) 15:05, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Whats confusing is using a ranking system in the players article which is run by one national memeber of the WDF and stating that its the official world ramking the BDO's rankings are by invitation only and as I said used for the purpose of defining seeds for their events they are not the official world ranking if you are having a problem with definiation and who is the official world body please look at http://www.sportaccord.com/members/ of which the WDF represent darts worldwide as do FIFA for football the English FA do not set world rankings.--Navops47 (talk) 02:38, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

I concur with user Navops47 the WDF rankings are the official global rankings of all WDF recognized member tournaments not just one national member of the WDF. The BDO rankings are not the world rankings they are just for seeding players in BDO tournaments the WDF is a member federation of SportAccord and see here: --112.134.215.25 (talk) 12:50, 9 January 2016 (UTC)http://www.sportaccord.com/ and here http://www.sportbusiness.com/property/sportaccord-convention and here http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/olympics/sportaccord-chief-marius-vizer-criticizes-ioc/ and in the encyclopedia britannica about the WDF here http://www.britannica.com/topic/World-Darts-Federation. --112.134.215.25 (talk) 12:50, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

This is an report in the Bournemouth Daily Echo"SHOCKED Scott Mitchell revealed the sudden discovery of his world number one status ensured there was no champagne on ice - so he celebrated with a sausage roll instead. Dorset's county talisman and England international took over at the top of the World Darts Federation's latest global rankings based on cumulative performances over the past year. The Bransgore-based landscape gardener, 44, was announced as top dog shortly after his semi-final berth at the BDO International Open in Brean, Somerset, where he lost out to eventual winner and world number two Martin Adams. Four tournament wins since August last year have seen Mitchell climb to fourth in the BDO rankings - the table which counts for qualification to the World Championships at Lakeside - based on points gathered from his best 12 results of the season. “I hadn't been following the WDF rankings too much because the BDO counts towards qualifying for Lakeside,” admitted Mitchell. “I think I was watching the speedway on television when I got the text from a friend on the county circuit and I was surprised to say the least. “I thought it was a joke until I looked, so there were no mad parties. It was around tea time so it was a cup of coffee and a sausage roll. “The possibility is that I may only be number one for two weeks if I don't go well at the next tournament. Wolfie (Adams) is right behind me but it is a great honour. “It's the official world ranking so whether it is for two days, two weeks or however long I stay there, it's pretty special for me and goes to show how well I have played over the past year. “Many of the guys have been there before but for me, it is a new thing and another one ticked off the bucket list. “My county team-mates are especially pleased for me because they have been there, watching me graft through 15-plus years at that level and being number one is very special for everyone in Dorset. It just goes to show what you can do.” Next up for Mitchell is the England Open at Selsey, Sussex where he is the third seed in Saturday's men's singles. He will also form part of an illustrious quartet in the mixed fours alongside darts legend Bobby George, doubles partner Richie George and nine-time women's world champion Trina Gulliver. “I've never partnered Bobby before so that should be interesting,” Mitchell added. “He plays to the crowd a bit and hopefully we'll have a good giggle.” link here http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/sport/11286211.Darts__Mitchell_celebrates_number_one_billing_with_coffee_and_sausage_roll/--112.134.215.25 (talk) 13:16, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Navops, it might be better to wait for someone else to put in an opinion on your changes, rather than just signing out and posting with your IP here above, as they've just started posting again and conveniently edit darts, tennis and war articles like yourself. As I've said before, you've put bias into all the WDF articles that you've edited, and not conforming to the outline of other darts articles; for example, the world ranking has not previously been in the introductory outline to any darts player before you started editing.

As I've also already said I am not as concerned about which ranking board is 'world official' as what is more fitting to be used here according to previous article guidelines; every player in the top 10, going back in the Wikipedia entry history, has had their BDO ranking shown (and not their WDF one) for AT LEAST 5 YEARS. If people want to come onto the English Wikipedia to find a darts player ranking, it seems more likely that they will be looking for the BDO ranking, which is used for larger events such as the world championship and as such is more widely known, than the WDF ranking. Just look at the length of the article of WDF 'World Number 1' Labanauskas to see which ranking people would be trying to find on Wikipedia, at least on the English site. The BDO seems to be the more pertinent ranking to be shown on the English Wikipedia site as it has been for years until you have started to edit all the articles. I changed all your edits back, some due to bad grammar and the WDF ranking shoehorned in to the first sentence, but mostly because I think it would be important to wait for any other member of the WikiProject to voice their opinion on whether the BDO rankings should be shown, as they have done with ALL player articles on Wikipedia for a number of years, or switch to use WDF rankings, in which case you should be changing every player and not just the first 10 or so. If another member were to come on here and advocate a change to the WDF rankings then fair enough, but I think you should wait before making such a drastic change yourself. Lewcario (talk) 20:18, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

A feedback tag has been placed on Talk:Darts world rankings Request for comment Official World Rankings please feel free to comment.--Navops47 (talk) 05:31, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't know. Isn't the WDF system basically "play more, place higher". Doesn't seem like the best system to me. On the other hand same could probably be said about the PDC ranking :-). The key in the infobox should probably not be called world ranking at all, but "bdo-rankin", "wdf-ranking", "pdc-ranking" respectively. And be able to use two rankings. -Koppapa (talk) 11:54, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

New List of BDO ranked tournaments

I have created a centralized article for all current BDO ranked tournaments found here List of BDO ranked tournaments if I am missing information feel free to update it thanks.--Navops47 (talk) 09:13, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Finals Tables on darts tournaments.

I recently fixed the size of the averages in all Darts Tournament tables. For example the Players Championship Finals: Before and After. However an Ip User keeps reverting those edits stating: Please leave the results of the finals in this grid alone,they are perfect and very easy to read. I'm not sure on what to do next because I'm not planning on an edit war. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 18:47, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Performance timelines

Below is a table of players with performance timelines. I thought it might come in handy for updating.

Dart Players with performance timelines

Player World Championship best (either version) Picture Phil Taylor Winner Yes Adrian Lewis Winner Yes James Wade SF No Raymond Van Barneveld Winner Yes Michael van Gerwen Winner Yes Gary Anderson Winner No Dave Chisnall Runner-up No Wes Newton QF No Terry Jenkins SF Yes Simon Whitlock Runner-up Yes Andy Hamilton Runner-up Yes Robert Thornton QF No Vincent van der Voort QF No Ronnie Baxter Runner-up No Richie Burnett Winner No Mervyn King Runner-up Yes Steve Beaton Winner No Martin Adams Winner No Scott Waites Winner No Ted Hankey Winner No Ross Montgomery QF No Martin Phillips SF No Darryl Fitton SF No

(Mobile mundo (talk) 15:29, 25 July 2016 (UTC))

AfD Notice

There is an AfD which members of this project may be interested in commenting on. Any help is much appreciated! Happy editing! Ajpolino (talk) 02:46, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Minor events

Isn't 2017_European_Tour_2_-_East_European_Qualifier gettign a bit out of hand? Those surely aren't notable by itself. Category:2017 PDC Pro Tour is full of those. -Koppapa (talk) 12:06, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Of course it is. People create articles for the sake of it. Don't even think UK Open quals or Players Champs should get articles. They never add any references either. Spc 21 (talk) 13:37, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

We should probably nominate some for deletion then and see what happens. Before this whole thing becomes to big. All linked from Template:2017 in PDC darts too. Edit: AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2017 European Tour 1 - East European Qualifier. -Koppapa (talk) 14:58, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Now 2017 PDC European Tour, which is just redunadant to info on Pro Tour article plus all the qualifiers, who really are enough on the event's articles. Note 2017 PDC Qualifying School Day 3 starts with round 3. It's not even complete. That just shows how badly suited the bracket format is for more high number of players. -Koppapa (talk) 08:10, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

My view would be that all European Tour events should have their own pages. These tournaments get good crowds, the majority of the top players turn up for them and they are streamed online. All the qualifying events for them should be included within that page like they are already. The qualifying events should not have their own pages. These are events often made up of amateurs. Same with Q School, UK Open Quals and Players Championships. I think it's enough to have the summary of who won on the Pro Tour page and not create what will become 50+ pages of brackets of minor events. Spc 21 (talk) 12:59, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes. I'd agree. The first batch of qualifiers has now been deleted. The players championships may need another afd discussion. But development tour, nordic, eadc and australian tours probably are surely covered by the same rational as the above AfD. -Koppapa (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Notability

Have nominated more minor events for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/2017_PDC_Development_Tour_1#2017_PDC_Development_Tour_1. Left out for now again are the Players Championship and the UK Open qualifers. Also Wikipedia:WikiProject_Darts#Notability really should be filled with examples of what articles (Players, Tourneys (BDO/PDC) are noteworthy and what are not. -Koppapa (talk) 10:00, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

RFC on sports notability

An RFC has recently been started regarding a potential change to the notability guidelines for sportspeople. Please join in the conversation. Thank you. Primefac (talk) 23:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at NSPORTS

Hello all. In an effort to finally resolve the never-ending and annoying GNG v SSG issue, I've proposed a revision of the NSPORTS introduction. You are all invited to take part in the discussion. Thank you. Jack | ^{talk page} 06:20, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Missing majors in darts players infobox

Hi below is a a full list of past and present BDO, PDC, WDF darts Majors a few of these are missing from the Template:Infobox darts player unfortunately I have no idea how you add them but they should be added.

BDO/WDF Majors

• BDO World Championship
• BDO World Trophy
• British Matchplay
• British Professional
• Butlins Grand Masters
• Grand Slam of Darts
• International Darts League
• Las Vegas Desert Classic
• MFI World Matchplay
• News of the World Tournament
• UK Open
• WDF Europe Cup Singles
• WDF World Cup Singles
• World Darts Trophy
• World Grand Prix
• World Masters
• World Matchplay
• Zuiderduin Masters (now called Finders Masters)

PDC Majors

• Champions League of Darts
• European Championship
• Grand Slam of Darts
• PDC World Championship
• PDC World Cup of Darts
• Players Championship Finals
• Premier League
• The Masters
• World Matchplay

The main sources for this information is from http://www.bdodarts.com/bdo ranked tournaments and http://www.dartswdf.com/calendar/ranked tournaments and http://www.dartsdatabase.co.uk/Event Lists 1974 to 2017 Thanks and Anne Kramers book here.--Navops47 (talk) 04:08, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

CfD notice: Category:Darts non-player personalities

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 September 23#Category:Darts non-player personalities.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:35, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

AfD for Tom Parker (darts player)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tom Parker (darts player) (2nd nomination) Yngvadottir (talk) 18:49, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

A new newsletter directory is out!

A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.

– Sent on behalf of Headbomb. 03:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Separating performance timelines

I motion the we split up the "performance timelines" on players pages. For a lot of them, they get way too long, as in the case of RVB or Peter Wright. I feel like we could make one table for BDO, and one for PDC. The Grand Slam is the only thing that really causes a problem here, but it will stop the pages from being displayed poorly because the tables run off the edge. Thoughts? DLManiac (talk) 23:05, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Support that makes sense to me e.g. Performance timeline BDO Career then under that timeline PDC Career.--Navops47 (talk) 03:31, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Oppose This will only work on some Performance timelines. Phil Taylor played for the PDC since 1994 and a player like Martin Adams has played for the BDO since 1988. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 20:36, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment It might be worthwhile taking a look at performance timelines done by Wikipedia:WikiProject Tennis where they have designed different types of performance timelines for players who have had overlapping careers on two or three tours or exceptionally long careers and have made the timelines smaller to get all the events in so for example Ken Rosewall had an 28 year overlapping career winning majors on three different tours his timeline looks like this Ken Rosewall career statistics Performance timeline. A different type of overlapping 22 year career for Rod Laver here Rod Laver Performance timeline. Jimmy Connors had a 24 year tour career in view of this his perfoamce timeline has been made smaller here: Jimmy Connors Singles performance timeline if adapted the last few columns on this timeline would add another 4 or 5 years thus giving approx a 30 year career span that could show two different tours. Another player with a long career John McEnroe has a very detailed performance timeline with more in depth analysis not only showing his major wins but also all finals he reached, titles and finals year on year, his world ranking year on year and prize money accumulated again this could be adapted to show two tours BDO and PDC take a look at his here: John McEnroe career statistics Singles performance timeline I was member of that project for quite a long time these timelines were created for problems encountered when they run of the screen (as it caused big problems for readers using mobile devices) so now they are contained in the right frame just putting some ideas out there.--Navops47 (talk) 04:43, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Further Comment I quickly took John McEnroe's performance timeline and temporarily adapted it here User:Navops47/sandbox5 I am not very techinal with this but if you take a look at now its adapted to display a career from 1976 to 2018 so that covers approximatley 42 years it shows a player for example winning Majors in an overlapping career e.g. BDO and PDC but also can list other titles won either when part of the BDO tour or the PDC tour I think this would sort out the scrolling off screen issue and actually it looks much smarter.--Navops47 (talk) 05:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I think that the real problem here is that the headers are too wide, and we could fix that problem by abbreviating (2005--> '05) or using vertheader. That should shrink up the width. Opinions, @Navops47:? DLManiac (talk) 22:28, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Career statistics/Performance timelines

I think we should sort out the career statistics/performance timelines on the dart player pages. I feel like everyone is just doing whatever they want and I'm not sure a concencus has ever been created. I think we could best follow the example set by the WP:Tennis. They got their stuff sorted out. I just follwed the example of Roger Federer on Ronnie Baxter who has had a very long career. I think it would be fine to add all these statistics in one Career statistics section like is done with Federer, just to keep things simple. With the table size reduced there is no need to separate the BDO and PDC results. I also think we should reach a concencus on the order of the tournaments. I think is best to list the tournaments of the organisation in which the player first played on top and then the other if that applies. I'm open to suggestions. I just thought it would be time to sort this mess out. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 19:00, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Key

W

F

SF

QF

#R

RR

Prel.

DNQ

DNP

(W) Won; (F) finalist; (SF) semifinalist; (QF) quarterfinalist; (#R) rounds 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1; (RR) round-robin stage; (Prel.) Preliminary round; (DNQ) Did not qualify; (DNP) Did not participate

Performance timeline

Tournament	1988	1989	1990	1991	1992	1993	1994	1995	1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010	2011		2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	2017
BDO World Championship	DNQ			2R	1R	DNQ	1R	DNQ	QF	2R	1R	F	F	QF	No longer a BDO Member
Winmau World Masters	QF	DNQ	QF	2R	Prel.	1R	2R	QF	2R	F	QF	3R	4R	3R	4R	No longer a BDO Member
European Masters	Not held							1R	Not held
Zuiderduin Masters	Not held												DNP	SF	No longer a BDO Member
PDC World Championship	NYF						Non-PDC								QF	3R	4R	4R	1R	1R	2R	3R	QF	2R		1R	2R	1R	2R	DNQ
World Matchplay	Not held						DNP				F	1R	SF	2R	QF	1R	SF	SF	QF	QF	2R	SF	2R	1R		SF	1R	1R	DNQ
World Grand Prix	Not held										DNP		2R	1R	QF	1R	SF	2R	2R	1R	1R	1R	1R	1R		1R	2R	1R	DNQ
Las Vegas Desert Classic	Not held														F	RR	QF	1R	1R	DNQ		1R	Not held
UK Open	Not held															3R	5R	4R	5R	3R	5R	SF	5R	4R		5R	QF	3R	4R	DNQ	4R
Premier League Darts	Not held																	DNP	5th	DNP			5th	DNP
Grand Slam of Darts	Not held																			RR	DNQ		2R	DNQ
European Championship	Not held																				QF	2R	QF	2R		2R	1R	DNQ
Players Championship Finals	Not held																					SF	2R	1R	1R	2R	1R	1R	DNQ	1R	DNQ
News of the World	QF	DNP		Not held						DNP	Not held
International Darts League	Not held															DNP			RR	RR	Not held
World Darts Trophy	Not held														DNP				SF	RR	Not held

BDO major finals: 3 (3 runners-up)

Legend

World Championship (0–2)

Winmau World Masters (0–1)

Outcome	No.	Year	Championship	Opponent in the final	Score
Runner-up	1.	1997	Winmau World Masters	Graham Hunt	2–3 (s)
Runner-up	2.	1999	World Championship	Raymond van Barneveld	5–6 (s)
Runner-up	3.	2000	World Championship	Ted Hankey	0–6 (s)

PDC major finals: 2 (2 runner-up)

Outcome	No.	Year	Championship	Opponent in the final	Score
Runner-up	1.	1998	World Matchplay	Rod Harrington	17–19 (l)
Runner-up	2.	2002	Las Vegas Desert Classic	Phil Taylor	0–3 (s)

Request for information on WP1.0 web tool

Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Draft:Mozhgan Rahmani

Draft:Mozhgan Rahmani could do with some attention from a subject-matter expert, particularly for an assessment of notability. That most of the references are in Farsi doesn't make it any easier, of course. Huon (talk) 23:25, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Player disambiguation

Hey team, I noticed that the normal disambiguator for players is (darts player); this is different than I think every other sport, which uses, for example, (association football) not (association football player); I think leaving out "player" would seem to fit with WP:CONCISE. Any thoughts/reactions to using the consistent disambiguator and moving the affected articles accordingly? UnitedStatesian (talk) 21:21, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Hearing no objections, I am going to commence moving the articles so they have the shorter disambiguators. The original, longer titles will remain as redirects. UnitedStatesian (talk) 00:22, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Actually, thinking about it further and lloking at more sports, I am going to hold off. Best, UnitedStatesian (talk) 21:09, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!

Hello, Please note that Darts, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of Today's articles for improvement. The article was scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Today's articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing! Delivered by — MusikBot talk 00:06, 16 March 2020 (UTC) on behalf of the TAFI team

Deleted drafts by a blocked IP

188.141.87.103 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) created a large number of drafts about dart players, many of which have been deleted under speedy deletion criterion G13. You may want to check out their talk page and contributions history to see if any are worth salvaging. --kingboyk (talk) 13:23, 19 February 2020 (UTC)--kingboyk (talk) 13:23, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Also 82.141.199.81 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) --kingboyk (talk) 11:20, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Discord

Hey all, I hope everyone is safe and healthy. My name is HickoryOughtShirt?4 and I'm a member of WikiProject Ice Hockey. I was wondering if there was any interest in starting a WikiProject Sports channel on Discord? There's quite a few of us who are interested in sports, and I think it would be a good idea to help the WikiProject recruit more members. You guys can join us through here.HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 00:00, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

AFD notice

The articles on the UK Open qualifiers have been nominated for deletion. Interested parties are welcome to contribute to the discussion here. MWright96 (talk) 21:17, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Ray Campbell

Ray Campbell (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I have stubbed this article. Since its creation, it was a copy of the Daryl Gurney article. Hopefully someone here has the time and energy to write a proper article. FDW777 (talk) 19:32, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is a whole lot of an article to write. hasn't seemed to do much great. But I did fix the infobox. DLManiac (talk) 20:00, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I took a scorched earth approach with the infobox since it was simpler than working out which stats were his and which were Daryl Gurney's, since they were definitely plenty of Daryl Gurney's in there. FDW777 (talk) 20:01, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

"Career finals" section

Hello all,

A few years ago there was a discussion about the colours used for the PDC ranking events in player's "career finals" section. Someone had decided to add a different colour for each tournament, which was done without consensus I believe, but it has been made standard ever since. Originally only the World Championship, World Matchplay, Work Grand Prix and the Premier league had their own designated colours to represent the "majors" (although determining what constitutes a "major" is up for debate).

I don't know about you, but I think the current setup looks incredibly busy. Using Peter Wrights page as an example, I just feel it looks cluttered and confusing, and at a glance, it's hard to see which event was a "major".

Legend

World Championship (1–1)

World Matchplay (0–1)

World Grand Prix (0–1)

Grand Slam of Darts (0–2)

Premier League (0–1)

UK Open (1–2)

European Championship (1–0)

The Masters (1–0)

Champions League of Darts (0–2)

Outcome	No.	Year	Championship	Opponent in the final	Score
Runner-up	1.	2014	World Championship	Michael van Gerwen	4–7 (s)
Runner-up	2.	2015	UK Open	Michael van Gerwen	5–11 (l)
Runner-up	3.	2016	UK Open	Michael van Gerwen	4–11 (l)
Winner	1.	2017	UK Open	Gerwyn Price	11–6 (l)
Runner-up	4.	2017	Premier League	Michael van Gerwen	10–11 (l)
Runner-up	5.	2017	World Matchplay	Phil Taylor	8–18 (l)
Runner-up	6.	2017	Grand Slam of Darts	Michael van Gerwen	12–16 (l)
Runner-up	7.	2018	Champions League of Darts	Gary Anderson	4–11 (l)
Runner-up	8.	2018	World Grand Prix	Michael van Gerwen	2–5 (s)
Runner-up	9.	2019	Champions League of Darts	Michael van Gerwen	10–11 (l)
Runner-up	10.	2019	Grand Slam of Darts	Gerwyn Price	6–16 (l)
Winner	2.	2020	World Championship	Michael van Gerwen	7–3 (s)
Winner	3.	2020	The Masters	Michael Smith	11–10 (l)
Winner	4.	2020	European Championship	James Wade	11–4 (l)

This is what it would look like if it was reverted back to how it was years ago. I feel it looks a bit cleaner.

Legend

World Championship (1–1)

World Matchplay (0–1)

World Grand Prix (0–1)

Grand Slam of Darts (0–2)

Premier League (0–1)

Other (3–4)

Outcome	No.	Year	Championship	Opponent in the final	Score
Runner-up	1.	2014	World Championship	Michael van Gerwen	4–7 (s)
Runner-up	2.	2015	UK Open	Michael van Gerwen	5–11 (l)
Runner-up	3.	2016	UK Open	Michael van Gerwen	4–11 (l)
Winner	1.	2017	UK Open	Gerwyn Price	11–6 (l)
Runner-up	4.	2017	Premier League	Michael van Gerwen	10–11 (l)
Runner-up	5.	2017	World Matchplay	Phil Taylor	8–18 (l)
Runner-up	6.	2017	Grand Slam of Darts	Michael van Gerwen	12–16 (l)
Runner-up	7.	2018	Champions League of Darts	Gary Anderson	4–11 (l)
Runner-up	8.	2018	World Grand Prix	Michael van Gerwen	2–5 (s)
Runner-up	9.	2019	Champions League of Darts	Michael van Gerwen	10–11 (l)
Runner-up	10.	2019	Grand Slam of Darts	Gerwyn Price	6–16 (l)
Winner	2.	2020	World Championship	Michael van Gerwen	7–3 (s)
Winner	3.	2020	The Masters	Michael Smith	11–10 (l)
Winner	4.	2020	European Championship	James Wade	11–4 (l)

What does everyone think? Boddefan2009 (talk) 01:24, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Making all darts players noteworthy

Hi, I've been creating loads of articles for darts players who haven't got their own articles yet.

The problem is that unless they're massive names, then they seem to be getting deleted almost as soon as they're being put up, even with articles being attached to them.

There needs to be parameters made to make sure that they're notable enough to avoid being deleted, cos that doesn't seem to be the case on here for some unknown reason....

Ones I've been doing recently are players who have gone through Q-School and won a Tour Card or participated in PDC European Tour events. To me, they're all noteworthy and should have articles, cos they're players who have played in professional tournaments, many of them broadcast in one way or another, so in that aspect, they're all noteworthy.

It seems silly that players who have played in majors such as the UK Open are not being allowed, when football players who have played in lower division football (soccer) teams are allowed, even though they'll nowhere near be at the same level in comparison to some of these darts players.

Does anyone know how this can be done so that guidelines are made, so that these articles can't ever be deleted again??JRRobinson (talk) 20:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

(largely per comments at user talk page) In order to make an addition to WP:NSPORT, it would need to be shown that 90-95% of players meeting any proposed criteria would also meet WP:GNG. Any arbitrary declaration of what should be considered notable will not gain community consensus. It should also be noted that the threshold is WP:SIGCOV (barring policy or other exclusions), and the guidelines at NSPORT are generally designed as an indicator of meeting this threshold; they are absolutely not a guarantee of an article being kept if/when that indication is shown to be wrong. In other words, it is not possible to arbitrarily declare all darts players notable and/or prevent deletion – the only way to do that is by demonstrating notability through citations to significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 22:55, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Darts Database obsolescence

Hello all, Many of the darts player pages contain links to Darts Database, which hasn't been updated in 6 months. Many of the stats derived from it (e.g. season and career averages as shown on [[1]]) are inaccurate. It may be worthwhile to include links to a more complete player profile in addition to/instead of the Darts Database links, e.g. Darts Orakel (see this link for Dave Chisnall's page: http://dartsorakel.com.185-26-149-160.winsrv108.pleskcontrolpanel.co.uk/PlayerDetails.aspx?PlayerKey=21) Full disclosure - I work with Darts Orakel to keep their pages updated, and I wanted to gauge others' opinions before anyone goes about changing the links to existing DDB player profiles.

Cheers, Ochepedia (talk) 05:55, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

nice work Ochepedia. I agree that the decline of DDB has caused some problems. Naturally there is the question of where the Oracle is acquiring information (links to sources?) Also, it seems like there are some user/member hidden information, and that it’s not all public? If we go this route, I’d also like to work with you if you can generate a list of players with ids that we could use to assist the with the process. DLManiac (talk) 07:07, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

We are using the PDC's live scoring interfaces to report match results and statistics - DartConnect and live.dartsdata.com - both of which are free to use. Historical results usually come from match reports on the PDC website. Darts Orakel does have paid content, but the player pages, such as Dave's linked to above, will remain free. You can understand that with a high level of interest in the detailed stats that can aid in making wagers on darts matches, we have to monetize some of the site! We can certainly generate a list of players and IDs to help with associating player pages with the profile page on Darts Orakel. Cheers, Ochepedia (talk) 15:23, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Cannabis and sports

New stub: Cannabis and sports. Any project members care to help expand? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:01, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

RFC that could affect this project

There is a titling RFC at Wikipedia talk:Article titles that will affect many articles at this project. There was discussion of making the RfC handled bit by bit before all projects understood the ramifications with entertainment being singled out next in a deleted draft, and other projects after that. Whether you agree or don't agree please join in the discussion for this massive Wikipedia change. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:45, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Mass of (probably) false draft articles

I have been pursuing an IP hopper who creates hoax draft articles on Welsh Rock bands - a subject I know about. I have had these deleted, and the main IP blocked for 3 months
The same IPs have also made numerous draft articles on darts players - a subject I know absolutely nothing about - but from the total lack of references, I assume these are also hoax articles. The IPs I have traced, so far, are

• 176.61.70.84 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) - Virgin - Limerick - Ireland - 8 June 2021 - 26 Dec 2021
• 213.233.155.167 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) - Vodaphone - Ireland - 14 May - 08 Sept 2021
• 213.233.155.151 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) - Vodaphone - Ireland - 15 Sept 2021
• 213.233.155.149 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) - Vodaphone - Ireland - 04 Oct - 12 Oct 2021
• 213.233.155.189 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) - Vodaphone - Ireland - 20 Oct 2021

Perhaps a member of this project could look at their edits, nominate any hoaxes for deletion and check the validity of the other edits? - Best wishes - Arjayay (talk) 14:34, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Well, I can confirm that the drafts made by the 213 range IP's deal with real darts players. Those made by the 176 range are far superior in number and I have not been ably to verify them, but they seem legit. However, whether these people are notable is whole different question. Since these are unsubmitted drafts I don't think it is necessary to mass nominate for deletion. After a while they'll become eligible for speedy deletion.Tvx1 00:41, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

World Professional Darts Championship

I'm growing a bit concerned with recent edits to the article World Professional Darts Championship. The new WDF World Championship has been repeatedly added to the article (though for some reason only the men's championship). I have not however seen any claim by the WDF before, throughout, or since the event that this is a professional championship. On the contrary, the commentators have frequently referred to it as an amateur throughout the coverage of the event. Therefore it's not appropriate to add that championship to the article.Tvx1 18:45, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Representation in World Championship articles

They should all be removed, they are never sourced and it is an individual sport anyway. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 17:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:2023 PDC World Darts Championship § representation issue resulted in removal at that page.—Bagumba (talk) 11:48, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

{{PDCLink}}

Hi guys - there's no documentation for this template - is there a specific reason why it exists? Does it do anything notable other than link to player names. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:29, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: It's just a replacement for using a wikilink. Because people must be unable to type "(darts player)" after some players names? This template should be deleted. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 11:55, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Seems so, I just wanted to check if this was all it did before nomination. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:38, 8 January 2023 (UTC)