User talk:Charles Matthews/Archive 35

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Gennaro Arcucci

Could you look into this, I'm not sure if I'm confusing him with someone else. Sources say Canonico and the date 1822 is given.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:44, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

That is fairly clearly a different person of the same name, a priest. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:06, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

David Murray, 1st Viscount of Stormont

Hi, Charles. Sorry to bother you, but I'm not sure where to go with this one. I've stumbled across the term "temporal lordship" in David Murray, 1st Viscount of Stormont (which you created in 2009) and in various other articles related to Scotland, but I have no idea of what it means. Do you know if the term associated with Lords Temporal? Thanks! Location (talk) 03:59, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

The phrase seems common enough: half-a-dozen instances in the ODNB. It's a legalistic description of church lands becoming the property of a lay person, certainly, and that particular case is well documented: e.g. [1] where property that was with the abbacy of Scone goes first to the Scottish crown, and a few years later to Murray. Teinds are tithes, so that in part this corresponds to the impropriations that were common enough south of the border also. The dissolution of the monasteries of course did not apply to Scotland, since the Tudors did not rule it; but this is the same kind of thing. It is anyway not related to the lords temporal. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:01, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

That helps. Thanks for the clarification! Location (talk) 21:00, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

DNB, Hart Lyon

Hi, long time no connect. Do you have any input on this DNB entry? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:04, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Just back from Wikimania. There is significant extra information now in s:Lyon, Hart (DNB00). The updated ODNB has more again about his reasons for leaving London. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:46, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Robert Adamson (photographer)

Hi , welcome back to the UK. I've expanded this, it was completely unsourced. I was wondering if you have anything on his brother John Adamson who appears to have produced the first calotype in Scotland in 1841. He seems to be notable but to date I've only found a basic sentence or two in the Hill article on the ODNB.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:11, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

This John Adamson MD: [2]. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

That's him, good find. I should be able to gather something on him now.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:19, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Howz that? Quite surprised there is no DNB entry on him.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:35, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Anything on Thomas Rodger?♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:20, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

There is a biography in [3]. I see there is an encyclopedia that is relevant: [4], though Rodger is apparently only a passing mention, in the article on John Adamson. This shows him getting a medal. "Collodion Calotype" + Rodger brings up a bit more. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:58, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

829 hits for Thomas Rodger on the St Andrews uni website! But all with passing mention, I found a few scraps to expand it a bit.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:14, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

What does one call "a scholar/expert of Hieroglyphs"?♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:21, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Sadly not a hierophant. "Hieroglyphist" is in the OED. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:39, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

hieroglyphology hieroglyphologist or Hieroglyphist? yeah I think as you say hieroglyphist, also going by google book hits.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:30, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Ever heard of Gog Magog Golf Club? Photos of it seem strangely sparse, none in commons or free on flickr. Any chance you could photograph it? Also an iron age fort on the hill, any idea what the name is and sources? Also John Bascombe Lock founder of the club, mentioned in a book here, do you think he is notable?♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:12, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Lock seems at first sight marginal for notability. The golf club isn't very photogenic. I could probably find out more about the fort. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:14, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Hehe, most golf courses aren't photogenic! Wandlebury Hill Fort I think it is.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:22, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Wandlebury is there, but I think of it as distinct from the Gogs. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

You could click around on Geograph like [5]. As you probably know, there are a million or so Geograph images not yet upoloaded to Commons by bot; and they can be uploaded individually. I didn't immediately see any for the golf course. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Aha. Uh, its exactly as you described LOL. Thanks. Time they ran the bot again methinks. Do you know which Osbert it is who is the subject of the legend?♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:23, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Translation from the original on Osbert: [6]. May not be a real person. The Geograph thing: it is a categorisation issue on Commons. Talk to User:WereSpielChequers if you can help get it done. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Fascinating nonetheless. Yes about a year ago there was supposed to be a London meetup to discuss a merger of geograph with wikimedia. It was I who got the ball rolling and tried to scale the project to involve the US initially and then the rest of the world but under us so the problem of mass uploading and categorization need no longer occur. I haven't heard anything in ages about it though, I was most optimistic about it, because as you know geograph is a superb resource for UK images and if we could extend that the a world project..♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you move Marotiri (Austral Islands) to Marotiri, most google book hits are about it, and the NZ hill doesn't have an article anyway so dab not needed.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:57, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Done. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:43, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you move Tarija, Bolivia to Tarija? Its a pointless dab, just needs a hatnote at the top to see this article is about the city, for the department see..♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Done. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:39, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Phew a warm one today. Just been playing flamenco guitar out in the sun. Feels quite appropriate! The day I can play exactly like this though! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

My dentist rates a particular performance of La Catedral by Barrios on YouTube: but no prospect of finding it again easily. A Korean. Speaking of classical guitar, which we weren't. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah, by sheer coincidence I'm learning that piece right now. Beautiful piece. He is obviously a keen player himself if he likes that. The performance by Ana Vidovic here is the best I've seen. Flamenco, jazz and classical are all technically very difficult to play. Yet all the guitarists who reach the top 100 in Rolling Stone are blues and rock players which is generally very simple in comparison! Another favourite of mine is Vicente Amigo. A very Moorish influence I think ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:03, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, as a blues pianist myself ... let's just say I have it on good authority that blues timing takes 18 months to learn, which is nothing much with getting fingers in the right place. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Great! Yeah there;s a lot of sliding into the major third from the minor third in blues piano isn't there. I've been trying to learn jazz piano and transposing things from the guitar onto the piano. I'm a massive fan of Bill Evans in particular. I find jazz in particular challenging, sort of the chess theory of music!♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:02, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Those bent notes on the piano ... demanding stuff. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Boogie woogie style I find very demanding with a descending bass line in the left and a blues scale in the right. Strange to have a G flat note in a C scale but sounds great.♦ Dr. Blofeld

C I know - which one is G♭? Charles Matthews (talk) 16:13, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

C blues, scale = C, E♭, F, G♭, G, B ♭, C . G flat is the chromatic note in between F and G, the so called "blue note". Think of it as a "flattened 5th" or "sharpened fourth". Its the same note as an F sharp. The intervals you see for the C scale are the same in any key, its basically Root, minor 3rd, fourth, flat fifth, fifth, flat seventh and root note again. This might be of use,♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:27, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, you took me seriously, unexpected. I worked out the blues scale about 1968, but I've never wanted to study music theory: blues piano is an separate compartment for me. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:10, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Hehe, I thought it was rather like teaching grandma how to suck eggs. I did think it odd LOL as you said you were a blues pianist LOL. G flat though is definitely the most peculiar of notes and I still struggle to think of it as anything other than an F sharp! Do you like this by any chance or is it not your cup of tea?♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:23, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Bill Evans is one of the pianists I listen to. At this precise moment I'm listening to Lynne Arriale. Charles Matthews (talk) 18:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Oo yes she's got a lovely touch. Similar to Keith Jarrett but without the irritating movements!! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:02, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Small world, [7] looking for info on Peter Sellers's tom thumb and you provided me with the info he played a grocer. Thanks! I can cite is as a source can't I?♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:37, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Sadly you're misreading what it says on Tom Thumb Food Stores. Charles Matthews (talk) 16:55, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikimania

Wikimania Hi Charles Matthews! It was a pleasure meeting you at Wikimania 2012! Hope to see you again next year! —Ynhockey (Talk) 13:48, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi there! Charles Matthews (talk) 16:39, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

COI on Wikipedia

Hi Charles. I'm working on a report intended to equip marketing and legal departments at corporations to have more informed discussions about their approach to COI on Wikipedia.

The idea is to help companies find better middle-ground between (a) ignoring the world's most influential website with a hands-off policy and (b) engaging in the risky, ethically ambiguous and controversial practice of direct editing by finding more balanced approaches to Wikipedia that involve Talk pages.

I'm writing a section that tries to put the COI guideline in context, explain why it's confusing, try to simplify a few things. Often a legal department looks at "real-world consequences" and they're too scared to even ask for factual corrections.

So I prowled for a veteran editor, who is still active and contributed heavily to the very early versions of the COI guideline, who would have credibility and weight to include in the report as an interview or perhaps with quotes. Do you think you might be game for it? User:King4057 (EthicalWiki) 00:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm certainly interested in explaining the rationale behind the COI guideline. With the caveat that it is not written for lawyers, and is written for people who have a general wish to contribute to WP, and would like to understand what WP requires of them. If you are going to cite me verbally, I'd really need approval of what you use, though. Selective quotation is a bad idea in this area. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:17, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Sure thing. That's the whole bean for me - the COI guideline was never intended for lawyers, but they are reading it, interpreting it and establishing corporate policy based on it. I'll get started working up questions for a Q&A below (feel free to edit the questions too). Meanwhile I'm happy to email the draft report if you like to get context. User:King4057 (EthicalWiki) 19:10, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Not happy with any of those questions, though. Let me start with something I'm comfortable with. "If you can be honest with yourself, the COI guideline is simple enough. Take a piece of paper and write down your intentions in editing Wikipedia. Prioritize them. If the top priority reads "to improve Wikipedia as a reference site", you are not conflicted. Anything else, and you are." Charles Matthews (talk) 20:03, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

It's funny you bring that up. Some PR professionals have claimed that they are aligned with Wikipedia, because they have a mission to share neutral information, which would suggest they don't think they have a COI. I would like to see us tweak that definition a little so it doesn't give editors so many loopholes to self-rationalize that they don't have a COI.

Anyways, that would be excellent if you want to come up with your own questions or write a statement, however you want to approach it. I'll just keep reminding that our audience is lawyers and they're primary concern is risk. They need to know what's safe and what's risky as far as companies editing their own articles. They are always looking at worst case scenarios, so I think most will assume they have a COI. User:King4057 (EthicalWiki) 21:01, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

As far as risk is concerned, it is important to emphasise that in the case of WP, an accurate statement of the formal position does not lead directly to prudential advice. That is one reason why tightening the wording of the guideline is not a route to answering lawyers' questions. The main reason that the guideline is there, in my view, is to give due warning to ordinary individuals about getting themselves into false positions, the consequences of which they probably cannot anticipate. "Companies" do not edit articles. The holder of an account edits an article: if the holder of the account shares the password with anyone, he or she has violated the terms of use of the site.

The "mission to share neutral information" is interesting. My first thought in this area is "WP needs all the help it can get ... but not at any cost". With the correct formulation, it is quite possible to accept that PR professionals have this mission; one has to ask, as I did above, what other missions on the site they have.

Going back to companies, I think it is helpful to ask "what kind of articles about companies would WP ideally have?" There is an answer that is clear to me: the type of article that a business school academic would write. Accurate and salient facts presented neutrally, which would cover the reference function.

I'll add some commentary on the question below. It seems quite helpful to look in terms of "mission statements" as formulated by potentially conflicted editors. At least in theory this approach could be used by legal departments. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Drafting Q&A questions

Feel free to edit the questions too and we can work collaboratively on it. I have no set plan for this, other than that my personal interpretation of COI will not have credibility.

• Is it safe for a company to edit their own Wikipedia article?

This question talks about an existing article, so avoids the issue of notability, which is a separate matter. Let's discuss a hypothetical editor E, editing on behalf of company C. It is realistic to assume that when E first takes the "paper" test explained above for COI, E fails. This is not the end of it though: E should study up on basic content policy (NPOV, V, NOR first) and, after a week, retake the test, obviously honestly. If the leading motivation for editing WP comes out as "to improve Wikipedia as a reference site, by [something]", the [something] will need evaluation in terms of content policy. For example, if something = "removing mistaken information", E is on the right track (this clearly does help the reference function). It needs tweaking, to read "removing unreferenced incorrect information, also adding referenced replacement facts"; this is getting closer. Depending on the context, something may need to be said about respecting NPOV and representing any controversial topic fairly.

If this sounds laborious to E, company C should find someone else (it is not safe at all for C's reputation to take shortcuts here). What is being said is that the COI guideline is not free-standing: it has to be read in the light of the content policies that help to define what WP understands by "reference material". Charles Matthews (talk) 08:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

• What do you think is the safest approach to Wikipedia for corporations that want to avoid media headlines?

Firstly, what to avoid in a quotation from How Wikipedia Works (p. 12): "An editor who inserts content that lies outside the policies, or who removes content that is within them, is not furthering the aims of the project". Secondly, there are at least four completely safe ways to approach the task: use article talk pages, use OTRS emails, construct new drafts in userspace via the "My Sandbox" tab and invite others to comment, and approach Wikipedia:WikiProject Companies for assistance. Thirdly, it is always possible to ask for help from uninvolved parties. Last but not least, experienced editors take a measured, systematic and piecemeal approach to improving articles in any case where significant changes are required. Any time that a corporation wants changes that are not minor corrections, someone should be thinking about how major edits need to be broken down stepwise, with each step something that can easily be explained in an edit summary. It all should look like business as usual for the site, except that "Be Bold!" needs to be put on hold. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:06, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Suggested copy

Hi Charles, just trying to paraphrase your comments below. Let me know what you think and/or what else you think we should add, tweak it, etc.

Is this version ok? User:King4057 (EthicalWiki) 18:51, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll get to this tomorrow. Busy right now on Wikisource and a project for WMUK. Charles Matthews (talk) 18:54, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Better now with some light redrafting. The final para leaves open whom to approach for help. Let me think about that some more. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Changed the end. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:35, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I just added "for corporations" and removed "several" if that's ok. User:King4057 (EthicalWiki) 15:17, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

It reads reasonably well, and I don't see anything to object to in it. The devil is in the detail in the whole business, but I suppose there is fair warning of that. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:24, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh one more thing: isn't it only "three" not "four" completely safe ways? Because creating a user space draft and inviting others to comment on it is two phrases, but only a single approach. I might be confused so want to double check. User:King4057 (EthicalWiki) 15:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, you cut out the specific suggestion to approach the Companies WikiProject for assistance. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh I see. How about we replace Wikiproject Companies with COIN. I don't think readers will necessarily find the help they're looking for at the Wikiproject. User:King4057 (EthicalWiki) 16:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I've made it a generic "forums". Charles Matthews (talk) 18:24, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

draft

This section is authored by a level three master editor and a major contributor to the conflict of interest guideline - Charles Matthews. He provides advice for corporations on how to interpret the conflict of interest guideline and contribute to Wikipedia safely. The best way to describe conflict of interest on Wikipedia is: if you prioritize your intentions in editing, and improving Wikipedia as a reference site is not at the top, you have a conflict of interest. Editing on behalf of a company means you have an apparent conflict of interest, but that's not the end of it. If the editor studies our content policies, they may find that their objectives can be served, while furthering our goals as a project. Page twelve of the book How Wikipedia Works says, "An editor who inserts content that lies outside the policies, or who removes content that is within them, is not furthering the aims of the project." The conflict of interest guideline is not free-standing, but interpreted in combination with Wikipedia's content policies. So keep in mind that the conflict of interest guideline's primary intention was to give a clear warning to individual editors who might put themselves into poor situations on the website. The guideline covers everything from editors trying to promote their religion, to vanity pages on friends and family members. It is not an accurate legal statement or formal position. It does not lead to prudent advice for corporations. It is not safe at all for a company's reputation to take shortcuts here. Wikipedia's "Be Bold" policy should be put on hold in this instance. There are at least four completely safe ways to approach the task: use article talk pages; use OTRS emails; construct new drafts in userspace via the "My Sandbox" tab and invite others to comment; and become familiar with the relevant onsite forums. If reading Wikipedia's content policies and mastering the behavioral etiquette of Wikipedia, in particular for editors with a conflict of interest, is too laborious, the company should seek informed advice.

Side note

Would you be ok with me quoting you as follows in an article for the International Association of Business Communicators (IABC):

"According to Charles Matthews, a major contributor to Wikipedia’s conflict of interest guideline, Wikipedia wants “the type of article that a business school academic would write.”

They asked to expand on the academic slant of Wikipedia and your comment from the string above jumped out at me. User:King4057 (EthicalWiki) 18:32, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

OK - it's just a personal opinion, but might be helpful. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:36, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

John Sherry and Richard Sherry

Hello, Recently I edited these two articles; both have a list of the books known to have been published under the name of Richard Sherry but without referring to the Oxford DNB article (which I have no access to from here) it is not obvious to me how to improve these articles. -- Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 09:35, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I've added book details to Richard Sherry from the ODNB. The content of John Sherry seems very questionable, probably confused. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:19, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you; maybe it will be improved in the future by another editor.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 18:12, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Gary Gereffi

Hello, I've just realized that there has already been an article about the aforementioned sociologist I had listed at the articles for creation, which you had deleted, however. I'd assume it had been some kind of sub-stub which really didn't indicate his notability, but there can be no question that Gary Gereffi meets WP:PROF. I'm not an expert on his field of research, i.e. the social aspects of commodity/value chains, but I do know that he is an "authority" within that field, easily verifyable by the number of citations his works have received. So if that article has been at least acceptable by any standards, I'd ask you to restore it. Regards, --Axolotl Nr.733 (talk) 10:24, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The entire content of the article was: Gary Gereffi Professor of Sociology at Duke University.

No objection to anyone recreating the article, but the speedy was justified as unreferenced BLP and CSD A7. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I've expected that after checking the revision history of the article Peter M. Haas created by the same user. In that case, he had managed to add some content before the article could be deleted, so maybe a bit more patience would've helped here, either. Nevertheless, it's not the first time that I've ask for the restorage of something written within some mere seconds, so next time I guess I'll just leave it at assuming that the deletion had been justified. Assuming something else doesn't lead me anywhere, it seems... Regards, --11:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

It had been left two days before deletion. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:39, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Charles

I won't include the template!! But you are cordially invited to Gibralarpedia - any assistance from Wikisource would be helpful. Best wishes Victuallers (talk) 12:46, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Wrote ten articles for a challenge with no recognition. Won't happen again, I think. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:32, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

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Cambridge fresher's fair

Hello Charles,

I've bid a stall on behalf of the Cambridge University Wikipedia Society at the Cambridge University fresher's fair, 2-3 October. If you are around, it would be great if you can come and help by staffing the stall for a few hours (or just hop along if you're helping the Go club already)!

The fair will run, roughly, from 9am to 7pm on the 2nd, and 9am to 4pm on the 3rd; details are yet to be confirmed.[8] It'll be a sign-up stall for the campus Wikipedia Society, and we'll give out Wikimedia freebies at the event to promote awareness for Wikipedia-editing and Wikimedia UK.

Please contact me if you're interested in helping, even if it's just a few hours. Thanks! (Apologies for double-posting if you've seen this message on wikimediauk-l already!) Deryck C. 22:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Your quote

In the International Association of Business Communicator's CW Bulletin and reposted on my blog under the section "Good content according to Wikipedia":

According to Charles Matthews, a major contributor to Wikipedia’s conflict of interest guideline, Wikipedia wants “the type of article that a business school academic would write.”

Corporate Minion 17:32, 6 September 2012 (UTC) (This is King4057, I changed my username)

Wall painting, Arbeia

Hy Charles! I saw in the view history, that you added this picture in this article. I plan, to use it for the german article too. And no my question: Do you know by chance, in which locality to be arranged this wall painting (Praetorium, Barrack, Museum, Westgate)? Many thanks for your answer from Veleius (talk) 22:01, 8 September 2012 (UTC) (wiki.de).

I have left a query for the photographer on User talk:Sara Ellis. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:10, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Osiandrian controversy

A tag has been placed on Osiandrian controversy, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:

This redirect gives the distinct impression that a controversy nexists although there is no mention of a contraversy within the article.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time.

If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 19:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Contested. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:47, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I turned the redirect into an article see Osiandrian controversy. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:34, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Good work. I ran across Francesco Stancaro yesterday, leading me to this one. I have now redirected Osiandrian–Stancarian Controversy there, a redlink in a template. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:40, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Its quite a heavy subject, not an easy one to fully understand and write about or digest and I see somebody has placed a technical tag at the top now. Its one of those subjects though which I think is difficult to be simplified as it appears to have been quite a deep Lutheran debate in the mid 16th century.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:36, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Plenty about it in Schaff-Herzog: [9]. But Schaff-Herzog isn't the easiest to use yet. I have a subpage about scans: User:Charles Matthews/Schaff-Herzog scans. One day this will all be on Wikisource, but not any time soon. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:07, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm planning a double DYK with Francesco Stancaro which I've expanded. I'd be grateful if you could check it for inaccuracies. Something in the intro about the antitrinitarian opponent thing I'm dubious about in particular. Both articles appear very important actually to the Reformation period in Germany/Prussia, exactly the sort of content wikipedia should be attempting to document.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:56, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Gosh. I see you've caught up with User talk:In ictu oculi. I'm writing six online modules a day right now, so devoting myself to content seems like a dream. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I saw he created the stub and also edited the controversy article briefly yesterday so thought approaching him too might be a good idea. He's done a tremendous amount of work on related topics. What are you referring to with the "six online modules", sounds demanding.. Just spotted this. I'll see if Gerda can translate it for me and add anything I might have missed.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:06, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

It's what I now mention at the top of my user page: a VLE for WMUK for Wikipedia training, and now I have to buckle down and write the content for that. I have a WMUK business card that says I'm Project Leader, but I have to say that I'm a bit short of followers right now. Still a couple of solid weeks writing and the modules (about 80) should be drafted, leaving me with other problems. All in a good cause, in that no one across Wikimedia seems to have done this before. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:16, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

A good cause indeed. Forgive me for asking but are you a paid worker by the foundation for this hard toil, or is it all purely volunteer work? Email me if you don't wish to reveal anything here. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:39, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

It's OK - I'm contracted by WMUK to get certain things done for the VLE so that there is a prototype, supposed to support the training effort. Then we'll see what next. Charles Matthews (talk) 16:34, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Emailed.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:53, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

What I love most about articles like Stancaro is what I call the "chain effect". It identifies notable missing articles and allows you to delve into often poorly covered parts of history in that given place. I've stubbed Stanislas Orzechowski and Péter Petrovics so far from that article..♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:33, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Charles Parsons Knight

Charles, I changed this redirect to a stub. I can find no sign that Charles Knight (engraver) has the middle name Parsons, and there is another UK painter that does use the name Charles Parsons Knight. Mary Benwell was the only article that used the redirect, and the source (DNB) didn't use a middle name, so I removed it and directly linked it to the engraver, now without the middle name. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 23:28, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

The middle name is in the ODNB; and you can see it outside the paywall at [10]. Thanks for letting me know. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:30, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Bibliography of Encyclopedias

You are invited to join in a discussion at User talk:Dr. Blofeld#Bibliography of encyclopedias over my plans to develop a comprehensive set of bibliographies of encyclopedias and dictionaries by topic. I hope you see the potential of such a project and understand that while highly ambitious it will be drawn up gradually over time.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thought you would have shown more of an interest in this, suppose you view it as a too overwhelming task?♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:58, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I've been on holiday for a week, just got back. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah, OK, hope you had a nice time. Its something which is going to gradually built up anyway... The focus should be more on getting the articles on them onto wikipedia but it would be good to have something as comprehensive as possible in regards to a resource to list them.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:05, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

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William Palmes

Hi Charles Matthews,

I wonder whether you could kindly help me improve the article for William Palmes. I am new to this so unfamiliar with the protocol.

thank you very much

(Burnkilmon (talk) 22:23, 29 September 2012 (UTC))

An article cannot be so directly based on copyright text, as this is (from [11]). It can use basic facts from a source like that, but not verbatim text, or close paraphrase. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:30, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

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Merger proposal

Hi Charles. As you proposed the merger at John Hamilton Reynolds in February, would you be able to check the merger I've done, which is summarised here? There may be some material in the shorter (now merged) article that would be useful to merge to the longer one (which was actually started after the other one), but I haven't been able to do that yet. I might drop a note off with the creators of either or both articles, unless you have time to do that? Hope all is well otherwise (from a quick perusal of your talk page, sounds like things are busy). Carcharoth (talk) 13:52, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The merge is OK. I see a history merge has been performed, but that looks to be against the advice at Wikipedia:How_to_fix_cut-and-paste_moves#Parallel_versions. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Simon Somerville Laurie

Charles,

I've created a start-level article on Simon Somerville Laurie as I am working on John Struthers (anatomist) - trying to get the latter up to GA, by the way, if anyone ever gets round to reviewing it! Laurie is rather out of my frame of reference; since I saw you had a link to it, thought I'd let you know in case you feel like improving on my feeble effort. all the best Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:35, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks - I'm glad that rather eccentric book by Sorley has it uses! Turns out Laurie is in a DNB Supplement, so I put up the article on Wikisource just now: s:Laurie, Simon Somerville (DNB12). That's something more to go on. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:03, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh good, I'll take a look at it. Thanks Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:09, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

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Category:Operator topologies

Category:Operator topologies, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:11, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Dunhuang Project event

Hi Charles,

Just to say I've got you down for the 24th at the British Library - let me know if you decide to come on a different day and I'll change the passes. If there's any images etc you want in advance (we have quite a good collection of historic photographs of academics/explorers), let me know and I'll try to dig them out. Andrew Gray (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll write to you - that day is the only one I can make, but my schedule may be complicated by something else. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:04, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

As I mentioned, Khotanese and Harold Bailey are of interest, and anything relevant to those topics would be good. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Arbcom

Hi. Any chance you might be considering it again? : ) - jc37 18:52, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Not in the foreseeable future. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. Happy editing : ) - jc37 19:31, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

This might interest you

[12] Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:08, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

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Proposal of a rule against ad hominem arguments and attacks

At Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Civility enforcement I was asked to provide my definition of civility. I mentioned ad hominems. A search on the page showed that you were the only other editor who had brought up the term. Based on what you wrote, my own opinion and the probably correct claim that we cannot achieve a satisfactory consensus on what incivility is, I have proposed a rule against all ad hominems. While "incivility" is a vague concept "ad hominem" has a dictionary definition that it is harder to argue against, and I think community consensus against it may be achiveable. I hope you'll weigh in. 88.88.165.212 (talk) 22:23, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm certainly not in complete agreement with you. The trouble with ad hominem that I see is this: some editors have a style of relentless personalisation of discussions, as if starting and ending with the identity of who you are talking to were acceptable. It isn't. I don't agree that the definition of "civility" is the main issue here. Where there is a duck test, as there is for "disruption", there is latitude for judgement calls. Charles Matthews (talk) 05:51, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback. As an an intermittent editor who has decided to cease editing because what I consider personal attacks (specifically claims of bias, having agendas and engaging in censorship) was found to be acceptable at WP:ANI I decided to weigh in on the active discussion on civility enforcement before leaving. I agree with you that civility should be enforced. This was an attempt to single out a particular form of incivility that I have seen too often. I wish you luck in achieving some form of civility enforcement, as the current de facto situation of "no enforcement" is untenable. 85.167.108.93 (talk) 10:26, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Invoking ad hominem is of course not always fallacious.

At ANI (with which I have had problems in the past, though that was a while ago), the issue is somewhat different, in that admins must be allowed to comment on editor conduct in some fashion. The problem with noticeboards in general is that they are "unchartered": which amounts to saying that if postings are subject to a code of conduct, that isn't written down. The things you mention are alleged breaches of content policy, in my view. I would always like to see measured language used in discussing these matters; but clearly there must be some way to have forum discussions about them. The "talk page convention" is good: comments should be about improvements to content, not about editor conduct. But also, clearly enough, ANI is not subject to that convention. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:04, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Clarification: The claims of bias, having agendas and engaging in censorship were made repeatedly in a content discussion. When I reported the editor making the claims at ANI it was swiftly closed as "no action required". Based on this it seems that making such claims is considered an acceptable way to discuss content, which is why I will leave. Of course it is appropiate to discuss sanctions for policy violations at appropiate forums. 85.167.108.93 (talk) 13:24, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I read this discussion, but I was stumped. This could be considered Ad Hominen, because my focus is on the editor, not the content, but I don't think it's a bad thing. We shouldn't attack editors as a means to win an argument, but we do need a way to deal with editors that are problematic or provide feedback to editors, etc.. Perhaps this is best left to common-sense interpretation. Corporate 23:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

In that case your conclusions seem to be at odds with the edit summary about length of sections? In any case there are multiple issues that have been raised here. As far as article talk pages are concerned, {{talk page}} sums up ordinary good practice and forbids personal attacks. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:29, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Workshop

At UCL today. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:53, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Uttar Pradesh

Hi, you know where I could get hold of a public domain quality map of Uttar Pradesh which featured a lot of the cities and towns. List of cities in Uttar Pradesh is a featured candidate, wondering if some PD encyclopedia or something might have an old detailed map of INdia which would be useful.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 19:40, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

You could try asking User:Maproom. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:42, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

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TUSC token cea0323b9351c6e118ad0ad8a67f3629

I am now proud owner of a TUSC account! Charles Matthews (talk) 11:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Dorothy Pizer

Thanks for letting me know, it's passed afc now (I hadn't realised before now that the standards applied there are effectively higher than for new articles for signed-in-users) Dsp13 (talk) 13:48, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Excellent! I've left a note on User talk:Jostanley. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:29, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

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Use of historical images

Hi Charles, Good to meet you again last Sunday. As we discussed image copyright, I wonder if you could tell me what guidelines I can use to decide whether a historical image can be uploaded? I understand it's 70 years after the creator's death, but he/she is usually unknown. Is it fair to assume that because the longest any human has been verified to live is 122 years, everything before 1820 (2012 - 122 - 70) is definitely fine? If the creator is unknown, what other criteria can be used? I'm specifically thinking of uploading some paintings from http://www.penangmuseum.gov.my/museum/en/museum/historical-paintings . Thanks, cmɢʟee☎✉ 14:01, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

There is something about works that are actually anonymous at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Anonymous_works. There's not much on Commons about Malaysia: but I found a link to a translation of the copyright act of 1987 [13]. According to a Commons notice such as on http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Miss_Maclay_and_children.jpg there is a 50 year rule in Malaysia. Anything published by 1922 is OK by US law (paintings, I mean). So anything painted by 1860 should be fine. Charles Matthews (talk) 16:24, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Charles. There are so many criteria that I couldn't follow it all. I've therefore used a conservative 1819 as a cut-off date and uploaded the images to http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Historical_images_of_Penang . cmɢʟee☎✉ 22:04, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

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Content study

Did you see this? Rather oddly, the two articles chosen to represent the whole of the Humanities were Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Acquinas. Fortunate it included one some of your work, and Ealdgyth's, anyway. No progress on Correr, & none likely for a while I'm afraid. Johnbod (talk) 16:00, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, certainly a heavyweight study. Correr is supposed to have been in love with the Gonzaga girl, as I learned by browsing a big Mantegna catalogue from the 1990s. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:56, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

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JSTOR

Hey Charles. Combing through the list at WP:JSTOR, I seemed have skipped asking for your email address so I can send you an invite to JSTOR. If you can get ahold of me at swallingwikimedia.org today or as soon as possible, that would be great. Thanks! Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 22:38, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Beaumont & Fletcher

Hello Charles. I see you're responsible for some B&F edits in the past, so I'm here for your opinion. I'm working on a table here: User:Phil wink/sandbox6 that I think usefully clarifies some of the Beaumont & Fletcher interactions. It's by no means done, and not yet documented (most info from Hoy 1962), but you'll get the idea. Also, perhaps I should combine all non-B-M-F author columns as "other" and just include applicable "other" names in the cells of that one column. My questions are: 1) do you think this is (or can be) useful? 2) Where should it go? Presumably in either Beaumont and Fletcher folios or Beaumont and Fletcher... probably the first, but clearly page integration for this problem will always be a bit tricky. 3) Any other suggestions? In case you care, I've pulled similar tricks at List of Panchatantra Stories and List of Vetala Tales, which IMHO turned out rather nicely. Thanks. Phil wink (talk) 07:50, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, suitable for the folios article. Obviously the main strength of the contribution would be to reference where current scholarly attributions come from. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:12, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

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Studylight.org

Looking at Thomas Chalmers I see you've added a link to studylight.org instead of a link to the EB. This is not really a good idea, not just because it doesn't work but mainly because it's inappropriate to link to another site when there are sites linking directly to the host. Could you please fix this here and anywhere else you might have done this? Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 09:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the broken link - obviously when I added that link it wasn't broken (as Google still shows).

The EB link at [14] seems to be a shortened update. We are talking about the EB 1911 text, and what existed before was simply the attribution template {{1911}}.

I'm not aware of a unique online source of the EB 1911, and a quick search suggests some of the other mirrors are down. There is a Wikisource project to post it all. If the Thomas Chalmers article were up at s:1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Vol 5:11 then that would be my preferred link for that text. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:07, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

You definitely improved it (although I removed some material that was just opinion as I don't think we should use the EB for opinion, not even the latest version unless we can attribute it to an expert author). There's a larger problem that I've raised at WP:RSN as looking more closely at storylight.org I note that it's affiliated with the Institute of Creation Research and we need to be very careful about using something so sectarian as a source for anything (sorry, I don't know your beliefs and hope this doesn't offend you). Thanks for the prompt reply. Dougweller (talk) 10:14, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Not offended. Yes, in using encyclopedia-style material it can often be the case that we would want to put it as "X writing in the EB1911 asserted ...", if at all. I have put in an article request at s:Wikisource talk:WikiProject 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica. s:Wikisource:WikiProject 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica#Other sources for 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica text is informative about what is actually out there. In the case of Chalmers I have found a great deal of more modern discussion, which I haven't had time to follow up. In this case the 1911 text should all be replaced. I just believe in a piecemeal approach to the fact-checking/upgrading. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:27, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

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Proposal for category:Bible translation stubs

Hi Charles. Please, excuse me if I ask you something. Days ago I suggested the creation of some new stub categories related to Bible translation and Bible translators, please read it here. Comments welcome. Regards, --Fabio Descalzi, aka Fadesga (talk) 23:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

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Alexander Reid, A Scotish Covenanter

Thanks for the link, I hadn't found the original so I went by this [15]. --Thrissel (talk) 20:58, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

James Dredge

I know there's some briefs in wiki source but you might have more on them in something. Feel free to recommend further sources for any.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 11:06, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I've added what comes up in the ODNB in other places. The DNB article on Dredge Jr. is 1912 so not yet up. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:06, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, can't find any photographs though..♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 12:18, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im201209Ken-Dredge1.jpg is interesting (his tomb). The whole site says it's GFDL. Not CC apparently. I wonder if they've been asked about that. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:05, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

His 1897 photos of bridges could of course be uploaded too.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 19:30, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Brotherhood of man

You may want to take part in this discussion: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 January 6#Brotherhood of man -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:30, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

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Attributing websites

Hi Charles. Can you add a source attribution template to Holy Boy's Cave which Victuallers has expanded. I believe it is Creative Commons 2.0 text but can you check. I'm not sure the source attribution template is suitable as I'm not sure it is classified as public domain material as such, but Creative Commons.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 13:20, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

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DYK for James Dredge, Jr.

Lord Roem ~ (talk) 00:02, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

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Lipsius

Someone's given sensible feedback that the Justus Lipsius page is out-dated. I've suggested on his talk page one way in which that's so. I'm not very secure in my grasp of the late C16th, though - thought you might be a good person to ping! Dsp13 (talk) 20:36, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm interested. The one source I have on my shelves is Constant Minds by McCrea. This is a look at neostoicism, which would be my way in to Lipsius. Not the most satisfactory book, though. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justus-lipsius/ would be a better place to look, really. For some reason neostoicism brings out waffly reactions, as if it were an intellectual dress code matching that sombre Spanish style of dressing in black, c.1600. Actually the really interesting point is this, for me: around that time there is an apparent bifurcation between the Tacitists and Senecans in attitude to public life. "Cicero and Seneca articulated a moral position quite divorced from that of Tacitus (Kevin Sharpe, Reading Revolutions, p. 317). All about the birth of politics as we know it. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:27, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, though Lipsius isn't a good example of that - his Politica mixes Tacitus and Seneca apparently quite happily. Dsp13 (talk) 10:46, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Obit help?

Looking for an obit or other overview for Victor Wallace Germains.TCO (talk) 06:44, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I've dug up some more for the article, but biography is scarce. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:50, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Cool, and thanks.TCO (talk) 15:58, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

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Blackboard

I suspect the entire invention discussion there is moot - if we turn to the OED, there are unambiguous citations for 1739 and 1786! (The third is 1813, quoting Faraday.) Andrew Gray (talk) 20:09, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

OK, thanks, will check out. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

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Benie Hoose

Can you try to find the name and some bio information on the Calder archaeologist of Benie Hoose. I can only find his initials, he seems notable.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 12:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Charles S. T. Calder his name is..♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 16:42, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

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Ipswich editathon

Hi Charles,

It was good to meet you, Deryk, Rich and others. Although I'm sure that I can start the process of getting some sort of Ipswich editathon going, is there any How To guide on this that I can look at or an editor who shows a particular interest in getting these things started?

JASpencer (talk) 10:23, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I think the way to start is for me to contact the WMUK office and try to get a date on the calendar in September pencilled in. Then I'd circulate the WMUK email list. That would give me an opportunity to ask for help, local and from experienced people who have run similar editing days. I'll get onto this tomorrow. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:26, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Charles. They usually tend to be the first or second weekend in September - but they have not publicised the date yet. JASpencer (talk) 14:22, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

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Moodle

Hi Mr Matthew

I'm sorry I did not chat with since D.C. I have been inordinately busy. In one of our talks last Wikimania you told me that you had been asked to work on developing Moodle course-ware for WM.UK. As there is growing cooperation between WM.IL and our ministry of education we may be in want to use the Moodle based course for teachers and student.

• How did you fare with this project?

• Is the course online

• What were your impressions of authoring Moodle?

• How was this received by new users ?

Thanks BO | Talk 11:53, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Oren, thanks for getting in touch. I was looking at your material on Meta quite recently. The current situation is this:

• I delivered the prototype Moodle site to WMUK at the end of November.
• We have had two types of external reviews of the material so far, and possibly will have a third.
• What I wrote was 81 modules in 16 courses, as hypertext. The current structure of a typical module is like Read this first/text module/Read this afterwards/URL resources on enWP/FAQ resources on enWP. All material will be CC-by-SA.
• Moodle is quite rigid for authoring. It is not intuitive from a MediaWiki background. The advantages are for things like quiz code, tracking of students.
• We want to do some more work to expand from the "plain hypertext" approach, with quizzes, videos, ways to space out the text. This could take a long time, though ...
• I also want software support. We have some "single sign-on" software (free license) so that students can come in through a wiki. That's not configured yet, though. I also want to have transclusion MediaWiki -> Moodle, and have asked a developer to quote for a rather basic system. (I think transclusion into a VLE is basic to having community input into Moodle systems, but it is 180° away from standard higher education thinking.)

There is plenty to do still, therefore.

If you would like to have a look at what there is now, the best way is to ask User:RexxS here for access, and mention me; he's the WMUK Board member responsible for the Moodle project. We'd appreciate your opinion. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:08, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. 81 modules sound very extensive - but then these tutorials tend to grow .

I've contacted RexxS for access to the Moodle system.

I'm very much interested in producing rich learning experience to engage students as much as possible. Mediawiki does have a quiz extension but it is not available where needed and is far too limited compared with Moodle.

I am also interested if a Moodle content could be translated via crowd sourcing on TransateWiki - so it is great that you are considering licensing this material as CC by SA.

Your idea about transclusion is intriguing. My intuition would be to using a pywiki to automate translation via Translate wiki and then push the results into as SCORM into moodle.

To explain what I actually did: User:The wub reported at WikiMania on his WMF fellowship work on the "help pages" here (i.e. the manual pages in the Help: and Wikipedia: namespaces, with some templates etc., that are the basic introduction to new users). There were about 400 of those. I started with his list, and tried sorting them into the chapter structure of How Wikipedia Works. I ended up with 16 topics, and these became the 16 courses. Then I went to Wikipedia:FAQ index, which leads to about 200 questions. I sorted those questions into courses, and used them to subdivide the courses into modules. So ... I started with defining the "syllabus". After that it turned out I had 81 modules, and so I wrote text of about the same length for each (500 to 600 words). I added resources of two kinds: manual pages and FAQ answers. And this was the prototype VLE. There are two documents that give details of what I did first.

So what exists now is a collection of "lesson plans": it would be possible to teach a class of about one hour from each module, and they generally have reasonable supporting resources. The idea is that people who have attended a WMUK training workshop could use them for self-study later.

I haven't done anything with SCORM. My idea is that people will want to study at their own rate, and would want a "cafeteria" system so that they have random access to all the material. By the way, the courses are just indicative: the prerequisites for one module may be in another course. The logical structure of learning to become an editor is complicated, an interesting point into itself.

The transclusion idea we are thinking about at the moment involves caching permalinks in Moodle. This reduces some of the problems. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2013 (UTC)