Template talk:Catholicism
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Request to rename the subcategory subheading "Orders and Societies"
Of the eleven entities listed under this subheading, three are not "orders": two are "congregations", and the remaining one fits under neither of these descriptions. "Societies" is far too vast a category: it would include associations such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the Newman Society, the Knights of Columbus, the Catholic Association ... These associations are clearly not meant to be put in the same category as the eleven entities mentioned: the three entities that do not fit under "orders" are in the popular mind much closer to the idea of "orders" than to the wide notion of "societies". So I propose a change to:
The first ten entitities mentioned are all religious institutes, the last (the Oratory of Saint Philip Neri) is a society of apostolic life. Esoglou (talk) 17:21, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
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- This page is talk about the Template:Catholicism.
- You want Wikipedia:Categories for discussion. şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 06:35, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for your guidance. I have difficulty in putting it into effect, since I can find no [[Category:Orders and Societies]] to which to attach a tag such as {{subst:Cfr|ProposedName}}. Would you please guide me further. When I used the term "subcategory" above, I did not mean a category in that sense, but only in the sense of a subsection (or whatever is the best expression) of the Catholicism template. My use of the term "subcategory" was doubtless unfortunate.
- I asked to comment on this request, but I don't think I care either way. Why don't you just make the change you think needs to happen, and if do no responds to the change, then you are all done. şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 03:04, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- I can't. Please read WP:REDLOCK. I am hoping that my requests will be attended to in the same way as requests #Edit request and #Edit request 05Feb11 above. Esoglou (talk) 12:25, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- While I don't know that much about the orders and societies here, it just seems fine to me the way it is.
- To me, subheadings don't need to stritly match the links therein. You just need the best links for the template subject, and then arrange them as best you can so that links can be found. şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 14:04, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- Headings should surely correspond to contents. Here, eight of the eleven linked entities are "orders" (a term no longer in official use in Catholic canon law). Only one of the eleven belongs to that special class of societies that are called societies of apostolic life. To make the remaining two, which are not "orders", fit under the present heading, "society" must be understood, not in that special sense, but in the ordinary general sense, a sense applicable fully also to the eight that can be called "orders". All eleven are equally "societies" in this general sense, making the heading somewhat tautological. The present heading is certainly not "the best we can". A better is available, one against which no objection has been raised: "Religious institutes and societies of apostolic life". Esoglou (talk) 19:31, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- BTW, article names on Wikipedia are based on the most common name in use, not on the official name.
- In fact links should match the article linked to on templates, so the current should even be changed from Orders and Societies to Religious orders... unless you can show that the Religious institute (Catholic) article is a better than the Catholic religious order article, for the purposes of linking to. şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 07:15, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
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- Hi guys. What is the issue here anyway? I can not see what the discussion is about. Can you provide a 2 sentence description of before/after here? Thanks History2007 (talk) 14:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
- The "before" (= "present") heading is "Orders and Societies" piped to Catholic religious order. The "after" heading - if there will be one - is "Religious institutes and societies of apostolic life" piped to Religious institute (Catholic) and Society of apostolic life. The objection to the "before" heading is that only eight of the eleven entities mentioned are Catholic religious orders. One of them is a society of apostolic life; all the others, including those that are not orders are religious institutes.
- (I apologize for having failed to notice the piping to Catholic religious order and so for having needlessly written above about the meanings of "societies".) Esoglou (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
- Hi guys. What is the issue here anyway? I can not see what the discussion is about. Can you provide a 2 sentence description of before/after here? Thanks History2007 (talk) 14:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
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Fine. So what we know is that:
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- Religious institute (Catholic) is ontologically superior to Catholic religious order and subsumes it. However, it does not subsume society of apostolic life
The hierarchy/ontology seems well specified in the Code of Canon law, as specified in Institute of consecrated life as A.a vs B. Hence my suggestion would be that the link title should go to the highest point in the ontology, i.e. the title should be "Institutes, orders and societies" and the link should go to the most general item, namely Institute of consecrated life. Is that logical? And Carl does not seem to have a major objection, the main issue is the Redlock. So let us agree on the logic, then we will look for a Redkey. History2007 (talk) 17:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
- Institute of consecrated life subsumes secular institute in addition to religious institute (Catholic), but it does not subsume society of apostolic life. The Code of Canon Law deals with institutes of consecrated life in Book II, Part III, Section I: Institutes of Consecrated Life (canons 573-730), and with societies of apostolic life in Book II, Part III, Section II: Societies of Apostolic Life (canons 731-755). Canon 731 says (emphases added): "Societies of apostolic life resemble institutes of consecrated life; their members, without religious vows, pursue the apostolic purpose proper to the society and, leading a life in common as brothers or sisters according to their proper manner of life, strive for the perfection of charity through the observance of the constitutions." It adds that some (not all) of these societies are "societies in which members assume the evangelical counsels by some bond defined in the constitutions" - not by public vows.
- However, even that proposed change would be an improvement on the present heading: it would cover all but one of the eleven entities listed.
- If it is wished to make room for secular institutes as well as religious institutes, then institute of consecrated life should be used in place of religious institute (Catholic). A list of secular institutes present in the US is given here. Lists of secular institutes active elsewhere are given, for instance, at it:Istituto secolare#Alcuni istituti secolari. Esoglou (talk) 19:44, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
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- Yes, my error. So what subsumes both Institute of consecrated life and society of apostolic life? History2007 (talk) 20:25, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that is the question. The answer seems to be either "nothing" or "societies/ Catholic societies" (with no such Wikipedia article).
- Don't worry about my POV much. I only expressed a view at the proding to do so by Esoglou. şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 21:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
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- Actually Esoglou knows that topic much better than myself. So maybe he can start a short article to replace the "societies/ Catholic societies". Given that I was confused from a first reading of these things, I think other readers may be too, so some clarification may be useful, and once that has been achieved then we can link it logically. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 21:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
- The theme "Catholic societies" is so broad as to be almost meaningless. The Knights of Columbus? The Catholic Association? The Society of St. Vincent de Paul? The Newman Society? And thousands upon thousands more. The eleven bodies listed are all a quite narrow class of Catholic societies: ten institutes of consecrated life and one society "similar to institutes of consecrated life". There is no single term that subsumes and is limited to institutes of consecrated life plus societies of apostolic life. The Code of Canon Law titles its Book II, Part III: "Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life", and then gives a Section each to the two. Esoglou (talk) 21:53, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
- Actually Esoglou knows that topic much better than myself. So maybe he can start a short article to replace the "societies/ Catholic societies". Given that I was confused from a first reading of these things, I think other readers may be too, so some clarification may be useful, and once that has been achieved then we can link it logically. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 21:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
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- Ok, this is getting so complicated, I am thinking of giving up and becoming a hermit or a monk... So what is your best, best suggestion then in one sentence and we will see if we can live with that. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 22:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
- Religious institutes and societies of apostolic life was what I proposed. It covers accurately the bodies listed, and no objection has really been raised against it.
- Institutes of consecrated life and societies of apostolic life would take account of an observation by you and would allow inclusion also of secular institutes. I find this fully acceptable also.
- So, which do you prefer? Esoglou (talk) 07:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, this is getting so complicated, I am thinking of giving up and becoming a hermit or a monk... So what is your best, best suggestion then in one sentence and we will see if we can live with that. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 22:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
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Either one is ok for me, after all the explanations. Let us see which one Carl prefers and then we go from there. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 08:20, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
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- They are both very long for the purpose of a sub head. I would rather have "Societies" with no article link. şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 13:16, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, they are both long. But we can shorten the terms, and given that the purpose of these templates is to tell people about the existence of articles, we probably need links. I did not even know that the article institute of consecrated life existed. So how about keeping the length almost what it is now, and just changing the links, i.e.:
It does not take too much space and has links. It may just work. History2007 (talk) 13:31, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
- I would suggest that "Societies" be replaced by "similar". "Societies" is such a vague wide-ranging expression. Societies of apostolic life, which are the only kind of societies concerned, are officially described as "resembling" institutes of consecrated life. The revised heading would then be "Religious institutes and similar", of almost exactly the same length as the present heading and much shorter than another heading in the template, "Particular Churches sorted by Liturgical Traditions", which has not been objected to on the basis of length. (As you know, I have requested that "Liturgical Traditions" be changed to "liturgical traditions".) Esoglou (talk) 14:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
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- So why not change what I had above so we can see what it looks like? And you can change the liturgical item too, so when the change is made, it will be just a copy. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 14:36, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
- Done. But I see now that the last heading is inaccurate: Roman Rite, Anglican Use, Sarum Rite, Ambrosian Rite, Mozarabic Rite are not particular Churches. They don't belong. The heading could be changed (and shortened) to "Particular Churches and liturgical rites", and then they would fit. That question will have to raised separately. Esoglou (talk) 15:30, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
- So why not change what I had above so we can see what it looks like? And you can change the liturgical item too, so when the change is made, it will be just a copy. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 14:36, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
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- But now that you have focused on this, why not bring that one up, make a proposed change to hat and then we can get it all wrapped up in one go? History2007 (talk) 15:41, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
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This fully discussed and agreed proposal was really part of the request below, of which only the final part has been attended to. Esoglou (talk) 21:55, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry. To save me reading through the huge discussion above would you mind clarifying what exactly has been agreed on, and I will make the change. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:18, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Particular Churches and liturgical rites
The last section of the template is at present headed: "Particular Churches sorted by Liturgical Tradition". Its listing includes Roman Rite, Anglican Use, Sarum Rite, Ambrosian Rite, Mozarabic Rite, which are liturgical rites, not particular Churches. I request therefore a change of heading to "Particular Churches and liturgical rites". Esoglou (talk) 16:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, now let us wait a day or so for Carl and/or any other people to comment then we will see. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 16:41, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
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- I also posted a note on the talk page for Wikiproject Catholicism to see if any comments get generated there, and then if all is well, we can ask for the changes to be reflected within the template page. History2007 (talk) 09:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- I will have to check one of the recent sources, but I believe in at least a few sources, like the Our Sunday Visitor annual almanac, the individual Eastern Rite churches are, to some degree, sorted by the specific rites they use. I don't know why exactly, just that they seemingly are. Give me a few days to check, and I'll come back with a few more details. John Carter (talk) 15:33, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting that the words "particular Churches" be removed and that the heading be reduced to "Liturgical rites"? The present arrangement in the template, except for the final part on Latin liturgical rites, gives the names of particular Churches (not of liturgical rites) already sorted by the liturgical family (e.g. Alexandrian) with which they are associated. I am convinced therefore that the proposed heading ("Particular Churches and liturgical rites") is the best. But if you insist on only "Liturgical rites" and if nobody else opposes you, neither will I. Esoglou (talk) 20:21, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, that wasn't my intention. Your proposal works at least as well to me. John Carter (talk) 21:13, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- I think I will leave this to John and Esoglou, given that they both know more about it than myself. So you guys please figure it out and update it. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 22:30, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- As I understand the situation, John has accepted the proposed change. It only remains to unlock the red lock. Esoglou (talk) 07:20, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- I think you just need to remind him to do that. History2007 (talk) 20:04, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
- Remind whom? John Carter? Does he have the key?
- How does one request whoever has a key to the red lock to use it? By inserting the template {{edit protected}}? Esoglou (talk) 20:49, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think so. John is an admin, so I think he has the key. History2007 (talk) 09:31, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think you just need to remind him to do that. History2007 (talk) 20:04, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
- As I understand the situation, John has accepted the proposed change. It only remains to unlock the red lock. Esoglou (talk) 07:20, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- I think I will leave this to John and Esoglou, given that they both know more about it than myself. So you guys please figure it out and update it. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 22:30, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, that wasn't my intention. Your proposal works at least as well to me. John Carter (talk) 21:13, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting that the words "particular Churches" be removed and that the heading be reduced to "Liturgical rites"? The present arrangement in the template, except for the final part on Latin liturgical rites, gives the names of particular Churches (not of liturgical rites) already sorted by the liturgical family (e.g. Alexandrian) with which they are associated. I am convinced therefore that the proposed heading ("Particular Churches and liturgical rites") is the best. But if you insist on only "Liturgical rites" and if nobody else opposes you, neither will I. Esoglou (talk) 20:21, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- I will have to check one of the recent sources, but I believe in at least a few sources, like the Our Sunday Visitor annual almanac, the individual Eastern Rite churches are, to some degree, sorted by the specific rites they use. I don't know why exactly, just that they seemingly are. Give me a few days to check, and I'll come back with a few more details. John Carter (talk) 15:33, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- I also posted a note on the talk page for Wikiproject Catholicism to see if any comments get generated there, and then if all is well, we can ask for the changes to be reflected within the template page. History2007 (talk) 09:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
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This proposal has been discussed at length with agreement reached between editors. Esoglou (talk) 07:54, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
- I have one of these keys for the red locks :)
Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:59, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Suggested edit
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Please remove the image from this template--the template is already huge and the image makes it unwieldy. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:35, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
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Not done for now: Please discuss and reactivate if there is agreement. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:00, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Not done for now: Please discuss and reactivate if there is agreement. — Martin (Edit request (2012)
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Requesting that this navbox be converted to WP:HLIST. Changing to hlist does not affect the output, it just makes navboxes better for those who use screen readers. You can copy/paste the code below (which I've hatted because it is quite long). Thanks in advance, Jenks24 (talk) 12:51, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
| Click show to see code |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
{{Navbox
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| titlestyle = background-color:#FFFF66
| title = '''[[Catholic Church]]'''
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* [[Jesus]]
* [[Apostle (Christian)|Twelve Apostles]]
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* [[Mission (Christianity)|Missions]]
* [[East–West Schism|Great Schism of East]]
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* [[Catholic theology of the body|Body and Soul]]
* [[Divine grace|Divine Grace]]
* [[Roman Catholic dogma|Dogma]]
* [[Four Marks of the Church|One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church]]
* [[Original sin]]
* [[Salvation]]
* [[Sermon on the Mount]]
* [[Ten Commandments|The Ten Commandments]]
* [[Trinity]]
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* [[Eucharist in the Catholic Church|Eucharist]]
* [[Priesthood (Catholic Church)|Holy Orders]]
* [[Catholic marriage|Matrimony]]
* [[Sacrament of Penance (Catholic Church)|Penance]]
| group5 =[[Mariology]]
| list5 =
* [[Roman Catholic Mariology]]
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* [[Immaculate Conception]]
* [[Mariology of the popes]]
* [[Mariology of the saints]]
* [[Mary (mother of Jesus)|Mother of God]]
* [[Perpetual virginity of Mary|Perpetual Virginity]]
* [[Blessed Virgin Mary (Roman Catholic)|Veneration]]
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* [[Anthony of Padua]]
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* [[Athanasius of Alexandria]]
* [[Augustine of Hippo]]
* [[Basil of Caesarea]]
* [[Bede]]
* [[Robert Bellarmine]]
* [[Bernard of Clairvaux]]
* [[Bonaventure]]
* [[Petrus Canisius]]
* [[Catherine of Siena]]
* [[Peter Chrysologus]]
* [[John Chrysostom]]
* [[Cyril of Alexandria]]
* [[Cyril of Jerusalem]]
* [[Peter Damian]]
* [[Ephrem the Syrian]]
* [[Francis de Sales]]
* [[Gregory of Nazianzus]]
* [[Pope Gregory I|Gregory the Great]]
* [[Hilary of Poitiers]]
* [[Isidore of Seville]]
* [[Jerome]]
* [[John of Damascus]]
* [[John of the Cross]]
* [[Lawrence of Brindisi]]
* [[Pope Leo I|Leo the Great]]
* [[Alphonsus Maria de Liguori]]
* [[Teresa of Ávila]]
* [[Thérèse of Lisieux]]
| group7 = [[Pope Benedict XVI]]
| list7 =
* [[Papal conclave, 2005|Conclave]]
* [[Theology of Pope Benedict XVI|Theology]]
* [[Works of Pope Benedict XVI|Works]]
* ''[[Dominus Iesus]]''
* ''[[Sacramentum Caritatis]]''
* ''[[Deus Caritas Est]]''
* ''[[Summorum Pontificum]]''
* ''[[Spe Salvi]]''
* ''[[Caritas in Veritate]]''
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| list8 =
* [[Pope John Paul II]]
* [[Pope John Paul I]]
* [[Pope Paul VI]]
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* [[Pope Pius XI]]
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* [[Pope Pius X]]
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* [[Pope Pius IX]]
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* [[Assumptionists]]
* [[Augustinians]]
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* [[Order of Friars Minor Capuchin|Capuchin Order]]
* [[Carmelites]]
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* [[Congregation of Holy Cross|Congregations of Holy Cross]]
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* ''[[Nostra Aetate]]''
* ''[[Sacrosanctum Concilium]]''
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| list11 =
* '''[[Alexandrian Rite|Alexandrian]]'''
* [[Coptic Catholic Church|Coptic]]
* [[Ethiopian Catholic Church|Ethiopic]]
* '''[[Antiochene Rite|Antiochian]]'''
* [[Maronite Church|Maronite]]
* [[Syriac Catholic Church|Syriac]]
* [[Syro-Malankara Catholic Church|Syro-Malankara]]
* '''[[Armenian Rite|Armenian]]'''
* [[Armenian Catholic Church|Armenian]]
* '''[[Byzantine Rite|Byzantine]]'''
* [[Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church|Albanian]]
* [[Belarusian Greek Catholic Church|Belarusian]]
* [[Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church|Bulgarian]]
* [[Eparchy of Križevci|Croatian]]
* [[Greek Byzantine Catholic Church|Greek]]
* [[Hungarian Greek Catholic Church|Hungarian]]
* [[Italo-Albanian Catholic Church|Italo-Albanian]]
* [[Macedonian Greek Catholic Church|Macedonian]]
* [[Melkite Greek Catholic Church|Melkite]]
* [[Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic|Romanian]]
* [[Russian Catholic Church|Russian]]
* [[Ruthenian Catholic Church|Ruthenian]]
* [[Slovak Greek Catholic Church|Slovak]]
* [[Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church|Ukrainian]]
* '''[[East Syrian Rite|East Syrian]]'''
* [[Chaldean Catholic Church|Chaldean]]
* [[Syro-Malabar Catholic Church|Syro-Malabar]]
* [[Latin Church|'''Latin''']]
* '''[[Roman Rite|Roman]]'''
* '''[[Anglican Use]]'''
* '''[[Sarum Rite|Sarum]]'''
* '''[[Ambrosian Rite|Ambrosian]]'''
* '''[[Mozarabic Rite|Mozarabic]]'''
| below = [[File:046CupolaSPietro.jpg|25px]] [[Portal:Catholicism|'''Catholicism Portal''']] [[File:Coat of arms of the Holy See.svg|20px]] [[Portal:Pope|'''Pope Portal''']]
}}<noinclude>
{{Documentation}}
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Done, with some other code simplification and cleanup. Thanks. You may want to consider using a sandbox next time rather than including all the code inline, as it makes it easier to compare the revisions (along with not adding a ton of code to the talk page). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:31, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Edit request on 26 April 2012
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Russian Catholic Church was recently renamed to Russian Greek Catholic Church. Please update this link in the template. --Chonak (talk) 02:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Chonak (talk) 02:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
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Not done, per WP:NOTBROKEN. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:26, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Political catholicism
Political catholicism should be included in the template. Eiter as a section with detailed listing of relevant articles or at least a link to the one article.
Some relevant material is also in Religion and politics (now redirecting to Political science of religion, not quite appropriately!) MGTom (talk) 13:14, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
