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WikiProject NASCAR (Rated Project-class)
This page is part of WikiProject NASCAR, an attempt to improve and standardize articles related to NASCAR. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, you can visit the project to-do page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Relevant AfDsEdit

The articles Braden Mitchell and Chuck Buchanan Jr. are nominated for deletion. Their discussions can be found here for Mitchell and here for Buchanan. Any constructive input on these discussions is appreciated. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 05:06, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Taylor Gray (racing driver) is now nominated for deletion (discussion here). Again, any constructive feedback is appreciated! Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 17:28, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Tim Richmond (racing driver, born 1998), Brandon Lynn and Eddie Fatscher are now nominated for deletion under one singluar discussion, which can be found here. Any constructive participation is welcome, and if you would like to be alerted when new motorsport AfD discussions pop upp, add Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Motorsports to your watchlist. Thanks, Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 17:33, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

DNQEdit

Why is DNQ being used in results tables (including in races which have not yet taken place!) when no qualifying sessions are taking place? If a driver and/or team is not in the 40 at each race then they should not show up in the tables at all. Effectively their entry has been refused. DNQ implies they showed up, turned laps and didn't make it into the field when that deinately is not what is occurring. 2020 Truck series article is the main offender. --Falcadore (talk) 21:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed but I agree with your assessment. Royalbroil 23:35, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
I agree with that, however, there have been times in the past where qualifying has been rained out, meaning that teams did not get a chance to run laps, and were still marked as DNQ. I believe the main reasoning for this comes from Racing-Reference.info, a NASCAR-owned website, listing the entries as DNQs. The teams did not meet NASCAR's standards for qualification (in this case, being one of the 40 trucks entered with the highest owner points totals) and as such, in a sense, "failed to qualify" because they did not accumulate a sufficient amount of owner points. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 18:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
For the sake of consistency, I'd like to agree with Will, but I definitely see Falcadore and Royalbroil's point. I think the best thing to do would be to go with whatever NASCAR / Racing-Reference say, so if they list the refused entries as "DNQ" like normal, I see no reason why we shouldn't as well. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 19:13, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
@Falcadore, Royalbroil, Willsome429, and Bcschneider53: Racing-Reference.info and the NASCAR starting lineups that are posted on Jayski currently conflict with one another: Charlotte Truck Series for example: Jayski/NASCAR Statistics showing Did Not Qualify: None & Racing-Reference.info showing the list of DNQs..
If the Jayski/NASCAR Statistics scenario is to be followed, then the only other option in the NASCAR driver results legend template would be Did Not Participate? Craig(talk) 16:45, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
@Cs-wolves: Well, that's frustrating, especially since NASCAR's digital media network literally owns Racing-Reference. We generally cite the RR pages in results tables though. I'd still lean DNQ, especially if the drivers' individual pages we already cite in many tables are including these races as such. But if it's ambiguous, it's tough... --Bcschneider53 (talk) 17:02, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
@Cs-wolves: Why "Did Not Participate" if in fact they did not participate? I struggle to see the debate here. These DNQ did not qualify, participate, arrive, enter the building, receive an invitation or bring a car with them. As long as they are not racing they can't accumulate any owners points so they have no opportunity to qualify by any method. They should not be there at all. Following the examples of other perpetuates a false myth. They were not there. Blank squares should abound. --Falcadore (talk) 08:23, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Additionally I have my doubts about Racing Reference. Going through the Formula One data recently has revealed a lot of errors. They need a fair amount of fixing. --Falcadore (talk) 08:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
@Falcadore: Racing Reference is definitely a credible source. That is at least their NASCAR and other stock car stats. Their F1 data is indeed full of mistakes. That being said, the same can be said about StatsF1 and ChicaneF1. Sources that are frequently used on wikipedia. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 12:55, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Per WP:TRUTH, I'd still swing towards DNQ squares, as we are talking about NASCAR results coming from a NASCAR-owned site. I'd also argue that NASCAR set parameters for qualification (be an entry with one of the 40 highest totals in owner points) that is relatively similar to normal qualification standards (be an entry with one of the 27 fastest times or 5 most owner points that aren't in the top 27) and some teams, just like regular races, failed to meet the standards. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 13:22, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing this up Falcadore and starting this discussion. I'll throw my two cents in because this is definitely a unique situation we're in that rarely happens. Sorry if this is kinda long but I think it's a good analysis of all this:
I did read everybody's comments above and I think that I agree with Willsome and Bcschneider53 and that we should go off of what Racing Reference says and have the refuted entries (Benning, Kligerman, Hutchens, Viens, Barnhill, and Cram for both Charlotte and Atlanta and then Erik Jones at Homestead and Ragan at Atlanta) listed as DNQ's. I do agree with everyone in saying that that the way it's designated as a DNQ does not entirely reflect how they weren't in the race.
In terms of using the existing terms of DNP (did not participate) or EX (excluded), it could work, but the way those two are used now wouldn't match up to this circumstance. Some places where EX has been used include on the 2011 Cup Series article with Kyle Busch at Texas after being suspended for crashing Hornaday on purpose in that weekend's Truck race. There's also the 2018 Xfinity article where Tony Mrakovich is listed as EX because of crashing in practice and NASCAR not feeling like he was ready due to his limited experience. Both of these are nothing like what's happening now. DNP kind of implies that it was a driver's choice not to race (it's used in the 2009 Cup Series article when Joe Nemechek stepped out of his No. 87 for Scott Speed whenever he qualified but Speed DNQ'ed). However, in this case, it is not their choice to not race, so coming up with something new like CNP (could not participate) might work. Maybe have the background color in red like a DNQ.
However, I'd still prefer using DNQ also because I think that if one of the 40 teams that was allowed to race withdrew to let one of the excluded teams a spot in the field, one of the teams that was excluded would be bumped up and into the field. That didn't happen the last two races but it's still possible that it could if we get more Truck entry lists over 40 (the Homestead entry list should be coming out today so we'll see what happens there). I was quite surprised it didn't and some of the "better/faster" teams like Kligerman, Jones, and Ragan didn't try to court some of the underfunded teams/"slower trucks" to pull their entries a la Paul Menard in 2010 for the Daytona Xfinity race or use their number and owner points like the No. 71 Contreras team did many times in 2016 for MDM, JR Motorsports, etc. The first time they did this Brandon Jones was initially on an entry list in the MDM No. 99 and was going to DNQ due to a large entry list, but then they partnered with Contreras' team and he did race after all. So all in all, I would be OK with coming up with a new term (preferably "CNP") to designate it as, but think keeping them listed as DNQ's is the best option.
Also, is there a way to have this discussion appear on the 2020 Truck Series article's talk page as well as here? TBH, I think that would've been the best place to have this discussion instead of on this talk page. Cavanaughs (talk) 21:44, 9 June 2020 (UTC)Cavanaughs
The biggest problem I have with all of this is that while DNQ may be a usage of the world that is not technically incorrect it is a different meaning. Normally DNQ is Did Not Qualify for the race. Here in 2020 it is being used as Did Not Qualify for an entry into the race meeting. Same words, completely different in meaning. As a solution, perhaps text notes in the race and championship articles concerned might be best. Sometimes we have a tendency to force explanations into tables as a substitute for writing it out in sentences. The teams concerned had no participation in the events at all. Denied entires have never - to my knowledge - been tracked before in the tables before. Regerdless of the usage of DNQ I do not believe this is something that should be tracked in the tables, but explained with text.
I would be curious to know if Did Not Qualify for an entry has ever been used in the past for a race meeting. --Falcadore (talk) 22:15, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Sorry to come back to this so late, but I'm failing to see how Racing Reference supports the use of DNQ? In the above, the drivers are listed as "Failed to qualify, withdrew, or driver changes" which is not implying the same thing as DNQ. Also @Willsome429:, I don't mean to nitpick but WP:TRUTH refers to what is verifiable in (independent) reliable sources, which of course Racing Reference is not as it is owned by NASCAR. A7V2 (talk) 22:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Normally on R-R, DNQs are listed as numbers and DC/WD are listed as such. I can't remember a race with all three off the top of my head, but this one shows an example of a DC with DNQs and this one shows a WD with DNQs. Hope that helps. As for the TRUTH point - I totally get it. NASCAR has done a great job of controlling media coverage of their sport, acquiring R-R a few years ago and buying the largest independent news source, Jayski.com, last year. In the case of entry lists and race results, everything anyone ever sees is a NASCAR-published document. There are no independently published alternatives, and that's what makes this such a bear. Many of the race results cited in race articles are NASCAR-published PDFs. There's no independent coverage stating what happened to these entries, but the fact remains that they filed an entry and didn't make the show. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 02:38, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
@Willsome429: I see what you mean with the DNQs etc, thanks. And it's a problem across the Motorsport articles of Wikipedia (and probably other sports too) that they have to rely on the "official" websites rather than use independent sources. Probably if it's impossible to find complete results in independent reliable sources then they (complete results tables I mean) don't belong on Wikipedia but that's probably going to be an unpopular opinion! I did have a quick look around online for the 2005 Pennsylvania 500 and very little comes up. In fact I noticed that the 2005 NASCAR Nextel Cup Series article has just one reference, a dead link to the NASCAR website... but this is verymuch sidetracking this thread, although I think there does need to be a discussion about the enormous amount of un(der)sourced motorsport articles. A7V2 (talk) 06:14, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Broadcaster and viewership information in NASCAR and IndyCar articlesEdit

There is an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport#Broadcaster and viewership information in NASCAR and IndyCar articles. regarding the inclusion of broadcaster and tv viewerships in NASCAR and IndyCar articles. I invite interested editors to contribute there. A7V2 (talk) 22:28, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Kentucky Xfinity DoubleheaderEdit

With Kentucky hosting two Xfinity Series races this weekend, wouldn't it make more sense to move the 'new' race (the Shady Rays 200) to the article VisitMyrtleBeach.com 300 ? Since this article is for Kentucky's 2nd race hosted between 2012 and 2017 instead to list both results on the same article of the Alsco 300 (Kentucky), similar to what was done with Pocono Organics 325 and Pocono 350 (even they were a doubleheader, the results were listed on different articles). Luks25 (talk) 20:22, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

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