Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/archive1

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Given the extensive series of articles on Middle-earth I was surprised to find no associated Wikiproject and an incomplete Wikiportal. Please join in and help to continue fleshing out these topics. --CBD ^T _C ^@ 00:05, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Portal Link

I cleaned up the information on the Middle-earth portal and created a standard portal link for it:

Do people think we should use a different image for this? Should the text below the image be something like 'Middle-earth portal' instead of the line from the book? Obviously, I'm trying to 'imply' it is a portal with the door image, but we could make it more explicit. --CBD _☎ ^✉ 19:11, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I hate to be the one to burst the WikiBubble on this one, but there is already an in-depth resource on the entirety of Middle Earth on the web: The Encyclopedia of Arda (www.glyphweb.com/arda/) This resource even has a Middle-Earth calendar and timelines, and an Interactive version that can be ordered on CD. (Might it be possible to just paraphrase any internal articles, and link out to the Arda database? Personally, I have been perusing EOA for the past year, and it is quite the compendium of Middle Earth knowledge! EditCentric 07:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The obvious problem with the Encyclopedia of Arda is that it cannot be edited by the general public and thus there is no way to correct its errors. To take the example you bring up... their timelines have the start of the First Age off by several thousand years. In different texts Tolkien put the start of the First Age at the creation of Arda or (more often) at the Awakening of the Elves. He never indicated that the First Age started with the first moonrise as Encyclopedia of Arda indicates. The terms 'First Age of the Sun' and 'Ages of the Sun' used by Encyclopedia of Arda appear nowhere in anything Tolkien ever wrote. Likewise, the claim there that Tolkien provided no dates for events prior to the first moonrise is simply false, as can be seen from the five thousand Valian Years of history preceding that listed in the Wikipedia Timeline of Arda article... taken from Tolkien's 'Annals of Aman' and 'Grey Annals'. The Encyclopedia of Arda is an excellent resource which I have often used myself for several years, but it isn't perfect and it can't be improved. Wikipedia's information on Tolkien is also not perfect, but it is improved every day. --CBD _☎ ^✉ 11:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

You CAN email EoA with corrections you feel warranted; whether they'll agree and make appropriate changes remains to be seen. It can be improved, but it's not open source. 216.40.234.174 14:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)Morambar

Elf children

I am sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but I think a Tolkien expert should check whether this article is a copyvio from Morgoth's Ring. (It is also in need of cleanup if it is not; I found it by searching for the misspelling "Tolkein" which was in the nonsense that is in the page history now). If this is the wrong place to ask, can you point me in the right direction? Thanks, Kusma (討論) 01:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Good find. The text there is very close to that in Morgoth's Ring, but seems to be paraphrased throughout. I haven't found an exact quotation yet though there are alot of shared words. I think the information in this article could be vastly cut down and merged into Elves (Middle-earth). --CBD _☎ ^✉ 02:09, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Date formatting

What's the standard format for dates in the Arda timeline? I've seen several: take the year 2931 in the Third Age (Arbitrarily selected - the year of Aragorn's birth)

• T. A. 2931
• T.A. 2931
• TA 2931
• 2931 T. A.
• 2931 T.A.
• 2931 TA
• III 2931

Would it be productive/wise/possible/worthwhile trying to find consensus on this and implementing it throughout the project? Or am I making trouble? --UrbaneLegend 11:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

See here for previous discussion on this issue and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Middle-earth/Standards#Middle-earth_Dates for information on some common practices relating to dates and other matters. Of course, these are all open to discussion / change. --CBDunkerson 12:31, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The problem I have with using the initials is that the abbreviation for First Age and Fourth Age (and the Fifth, for that matter) are the same: F. A. Of course, there's less written about the Fourth Age than the First, but and it would usually be obvious by context which age was being referred to, but if the timeline were extended it would cause problems. Sixth and Seventh would both be S. A., which already stands for Second Age. To avoid ambiguity, I'm in favour of the format: III 2931. Any thoughts? --UrbaneLegend 13:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

See response to same question / continued discussion at Talk:Timeline_of_Arda. --CBDunkerson 14:52, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Languages

If there is already some standards on this that I'm not aware of I apologize, but perhaps there should be some standards for usage of Tolkien's languages in articles. i.e. Standard formatting for translations of words or phrases, and notation for the language a name or place comes from and definition when known, etc.

Any input?

ASchmoo 23:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I haven't seen any standards for this, but it sounds like a good idea. Given that most of the names in Tolkien's stories are given in invented or historical languages I don't think it makes sense to ALWAYS include the translations... there'd be dozens in some articles. Instead, I'd suggest having the translation only in the first sentence or two of the main article for each subject. As to format; something like, Forlond (Sindarin, 'north-haven'), could work. --CBDunkerson 01:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, clearly doing it for EVERY instance would be overkill, but I think it would be useful to do for a name or place in the article for that topic like you described. The format you suggest looks pretty good, the other idea would be some kind of template so that it could be easily changed if needed, but I have no idea how that would be achieved. ASchmoo 21:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. I created a template at Template:Tolklang as a starting point for this. There's an example of using the template on the linked page. Let me know what you think and any changes / adjustments. Right now it will conditionally display up to four roots - offhand I can't think of any words / names which have even that many. Is the 'for=north lond=haven' format useful or would just 'north-haven' be better? --CBDunkerson 17:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

That template looks good. I would tend to go with the second format you suggested, considering the mutations in sindarin change the elements it might be more confusing, but definitely good work. ASchmoo 18:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Organization

I wasn't aware of the existence of a Tolkien-related WikiProject and was thinking to make one myself when I found this WikiProject. May I suggest maybe perhaps expanding the Wikiproject further, like the Star Wars WikiProject?

We could start off with a participant list on the project page, and advertisement for Tolkien fans uniting in this WikiProject. Also, I was thinking of merging WikiProject Similarion with Middle-earth into a Tolkien WikiProject or whatever you'd all like to call it, since the first one seems inactive. What do the rest of members think? —Mirlen 16:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I was surprised when I saw 'Wikiproject Silmarillion' added. I don't think we need separate projects for 'Silmarillion', 'Middle-earth', 'Tolkien', et cetera. 'Middle-earth' is a reasonable overall title, but 'Tolkien' is more inclusive. If we want to rename/merge this to 'Wikiproject Tolkien' I don't have a problem with that. I removed the participant list back when I was the only person on it. More people about now so it might make sense to re-instate. I did create a few advertising banners and put them on various pages - see Template:ME-project and Template:ME-category. --CBDunkerson 17:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, if I add my name to the participant list, that makes two, doesn't it :)? Let's keep it WikiProject [LotR] then and have Silmarillion merged into it. I'll make the layout (sort of) for project page and talk page, and see if you like it.

NOTE: For now, it'll be called WikiProject [LotR] for neutral purposes and later, and later, if the templates/proposal for merged project below gets approved, then we'll decide on a name.

TEMPLATES/LAYOUTS for new WikiProject [LotR] a.k.a revamp:

• Main page
• Things to Do

What do you think? Also, I think we should have a userbox to advertise Wikiproject [LotR]. What should the picture be to represent WikiProject [LotR]? —Mirlen 20:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest just going ahead and making some of these updates now. To date I've pretty much been 'running' the project solo (collecting information on standards, listing open tasks, et cetera) and I've got no problems with updates / alterations. Advertising / recruitment isn't my thing... if you've got ideas in those regards run with them and let me know how I can help. --CBDunkerson 22:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

On the picture for advertisements: ideally it would be something which displays well at small size, is instantly recognizable as 'Tolkien' related, but is not subject to copyright. Unfortunately, the 'recognizable' and 'not copyrighted' goals are largely contradictory. Possibly the ring inscription in Tengwar? It is just words in a particular font and thus I believe it doesn't fall under copyright, but anyone familiar with the stories would recognize it. Shaping the words in a circle, as Tolkien did for his cover art, probably wouldn't run into copyright issues either... but adding the ring, eye, and 'flames' would. Another possibility might be a small non-derivative map of northwestern Middle-earth. --CBDunkerson 12:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Page updated and calling it WikiProject Middle-earth for now. I think the ring inscription in Tengwar would look good. Would you like to make the image? I'll make the userbox :). And if you'd like to add anything to the empty sections, please do. I will keep adding new stuff as time goes on. —Mirlen 16:17, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

This is just me, but I like "WikiProject Tolkien" better, as it allows inclusion of things not necessarily Middle-earth, like Smith of Wooten Major, Farmer Giles of Ham and Leaf, by Niggle. "Mmmm, dragontail, mmmm...." 216.40.234.174 14:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)Morambar

I made the userbox—tell me when you have the Tengwar image, then we can replace the ring image with the ring inscription...So, what do you think?

{{User WikiProject Middle-earth}}

However, there's something wrong with the template. The black line in the left corner keeps showing and I don't know why it's doing that. Anyone feel like they can do better ('cause mine's is not all that good, I'm afraid), please feel free to edit! —Mirlen 14:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I made an image (Image:InscripSmall.JPG), but unfortunately making it small enough to incorporate into a userbox also makes the image indecipherable. :[ The ring image you are using works fairly well and has the same inscription visible when scaled up. I'm not sure what you mean about a black line on the userbox unless it is from the 'border' set in the first line or the 'background' setting on the image line. It looks ok to me though. I do wonder why it has so many conditionals and extra parameters. I cut down on these to just the settings actually used - let me know if that is a problem. --CBDunkerson 22:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, it shows up fine :)...Alright, thanks. —Mirlen 12:41, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey, wait, take a look at my userpage and look for the User WikiProject Middle-earth template, do you see that whole space between the template? Do you know why that happens? —Mirlen 12:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Hrrrmmm, I'm still not seeing anything notably different from other template. Do you mean the small spaces between each box? Maybe e-mail me a screenshot. --CBDunkerson 13:21, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Announcement

Just an announcement so other people know. There's a new page called 'Things to Do', and you can find the link on the main page. Thanks!

I also like the idea of an announcement box, like Final Fantasy WikiProject has one here. Anyone want to make it? —Mirlen 13:46, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I set this up and put in a couple of examples. --CBDunkerson 22:58, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Featured Article

The J. R. R. Tolkien article is currently being considered for featured article status. --CBDunkerson 19:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

That's wonderful! —Mirlen 19:46, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

If the Protocols of the Elders of Zion id good enough for Featured Article status, surely Tolkien is. 216.40.234.174 14:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC) Morambar

Userboxes

I was browsing through the Silmarillion characters article (which needs to cleaned up quite a bit), and I was thinking of renaming the character userbox, 'Tolkien Character' instead of 'Lord of the Rings Character', so that other characters in the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales or Book of Lost Tales can have a userbox as well. What do you all think? (And 216.40.234.174, feel free to insert your opinion as well, since we are all Tolkien fans trying to improve Tolkien-related articles) :). —Mirlen 04:21, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

That makes perfect sense to me. - ASchmoo 04:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mirlen. I think you are talking about Template:Infobox LOTR. Note that the 'Character from The Lord of the Rings' bit is coded into the title of that box. That could be made conditional or changed to always say 'Tolkien Character'. There is also Template:Infobox LOTR place... which has a more generic header and is already being used for some locations that don't appear in LotR. Alternatively, we could make a separate 'Infobox Tolkien' to cover characters/places/objects from his stories. BTW, what is the 'Silmarillion characters article'? I can't recall seeing an article specifically for Silmarillion characters. There is a List of Middle-earth characters - which I am hoping will eventually just include List of Hobbits, List of Dwarves (Middle-earth), List of Middle-earth Men, et cetera and a few unclassified/disputed entries (Bombadil, Goldberry, Huan, Ungoliant, et cetera). Likewise I think List of Middle-earth articles is never going to be 'encyclopedic' and ought to be moved into this project to serve as a watchlist while List of Middle-earth articles by category is cleaned up to take it's place... again containing various other lists like List of Middle-earth characters, List of Middle-earth peoples, List of Middle-earth realms, et cetera. --CBDunkerson 10:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

So CBD, is that a CBD version of a straightfoward answer of saying, 'yes, you agree me'? :P And for the general infobox Tolkien, I like how we have seperate userboxes for seperate categories. Makes this easier and more organized. As for the 'Silmarillion characters article', I meant 'Silmarillion characters' articles'. Sorry, forgot that crucial apostrophe. For example, Maedhros, a character from The Silmarillion (who I would refer to 'Silmarillion character'), would have a character userbox under the title of 'Tolkien Character' or 'Character from Tolkien's legendarium'. Either one would do.

As for the list, I think we should also have a list for Elves. Click here for the more detailed proposal. And as for the merging of 'List of Middle-earth' articles, how 'bout proposing it in the things to do page? :) (Yeah, I know it's a bit confusing). And yes, I agree with you CBD on cleanign up the List of Middle-earth articles by category to just have List of Middle-earth peoples, List of Middle-earth realms, etc. —Mirlen 22:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Yup, terse and to the point... that's me. :] Agree on having a list of Elves, just wasn't one already in existence to link to. On changing the name/wording of the infobox, well let's go to the talk page and discuss it with the locals. --CBDunkerson 23:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Haha, of coures :D. Alright. Would you like to do the honors, or should I? —Mirlen 23:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Already done. If we don't get any response can just go ahead and move/update it. --CBDunkerson 23:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Recruiting template

What do you think? —Mirlen 23:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice idea. There are several users who regularly edit Tolkien articles who may never have noticed the wikiproject. Would just suggest tightening it up a bit. More 'please join us in building and improving Tolkien content' and less 'we need to do this and this and this'. --CBDunkerson 23:31, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

So, you mean remove the descriptions of the links, or the links themselves? I don't want to remove the links because it'll help them see what link is link on the WikiProject home page because like you said, it's a bit confusing. Basically, I based it off Wikipedia Welcome template and the idea's from the SW WikiProject, so I didn't think of the idea originally, although I wish I did :P. —Mirlen 23:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

No, links and descriptions are both fine. Just thinking maybe a few less of them. Some of the listed items (e.g. accomplishments & collaboration) are new or not yet fully active. Might want to hold off on including them in a welcome advertisement until they are more active. --CBDunkerson 23:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, point taken. —Mirlen 00:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Here's the New member welcoming template :). —Mirlen 02:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Tolkien barnstar

What do you think of having a Tolkien barnstar that Middle-earth WikiProject users can award? (And no, we shouldn't have the Ring be our barnstar :)). I was thinking of the Phial of Galadriel. Here are the several versions we can use: 1, 2. What do say you about the idea? Yea or nay? ;) (Oh, and if anyone has other better ideas for the Tolkien barnstar, feel free to share the idea)! —Mirlen 01:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Clarification of the goals of this project

I've just been reading around some of the Tolkien articles, and I wondered if some of the goals and aims of this WikiProject could be clarified? In particular, some of the articles seem to go overboard on summarising the plotlines and using material from the books. There is also some degree of interpreting of the book, which veers close to critical analysis. Is this acceptable?

So, is it possible to draw the boundaries more clearly? At the moment, based on a comment further up the talk page, it seems that this WikiProject seems to want to imitate (and improve) on Encyclopedia of Arda and similar websites, but is less tightly constrained. Pages I have looked at (and left comments on their talk pages) include Faramir and Timeline_of_Arda. Thanks. Carcharoth 16:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this is fairly standard. Take a look at the articles on Harry Potter, Stargate SG1, or any of a dozen other fictional topics. The mention of 'Encyclopedia of Arda' just came in because someone suggested that there was no need to have Tolkien content here because it was 'all taken care of already'... but, as noted, The Encyclopedia of Arda is incomplete and sometimes inaccurate. There is 'interpretation' of the books as there is 'POV' on many pages... over time these instances are identified and clarified. The 'aims' of the WikiProject are to develop detailed and accurate articles on Tolkien's Middle-earth. --CBDunkerson 17:05, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

You are right about the other articles on fictional places. I just find it very jarring to go from reading about historical characters and the history of the real world, or a serious science article, and in a few clicks end up at articles that go into mind-numbing detail on some obscure aspect of a fictional story. All part of the "fan" culture I suppose. Is it at all possible to expand and concentrate on the more clearly encyclopedic (I'd call it "real-world") articles? Maybe even create a category or listing for them somewhere? With Tolkien being the obvious example. Others I have found include Category:J. R. R. Tolkien, Tolkienology, Tolkien fandom and Category:Tolkien fandom, Tolkien research, some are mixtures, like Languages_of_Middle-earth, and then there are the ones like Faramir which seem to me to be almost entirely from the (fictional) perspective of a Middle-earth historian (apart from the film sections). In other words, try to get Tolkien-related articles and editors of such articles, to be aware of the distinction between writing from a Middle-earth POV and a "real-world" (encyclopedic) POV.

For what it is worth, I would expect to find the "character" articles at something like the Tolkien wikicity, and the latter "real-world POV" articles at something like Wikipedia. While articles should exist for all entries, on Wikipedia the summary for "character"-type articles would be brief and to the point, with a link to the Tolkien wikicity, which would expand on the subject. The "real world" articles on the wikicity would (reversing the process) treat something like "Tolkien research" with a brief entry and a link to Wikipedia, which would expand on the subject. This may be beyond the scope of this project, but I thought I'd raise the issue here.

Having said all this, I should say that while I have heard of the Tolkien wikicity, I haven't been there, so I don't know how active it is. In any case, such transwikiing could come later. My main point is to clearly separate and identify these two POVs for articles: (1) Articles about Tolkien and the influences on him (work, languages, WWI) and the influence of his work on others (books and fandom and films, etc), as opposed to (2) Articles about the books (which which generally be written as if for an interested reader wanting to find out more about Middle-earth).

Does this distinction sound useful? Carcharoth 17:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

You have a valid point, that it is all part of the "fan culture", as you have said. So from what you're saying, you would like this WikiProject focus more on J. R. R. Tolkien, the real people and items related to Tolkien as opposed to what the books are about (i.e. characters, places, weapons, etc.)? And for the character's article (I agree with you that the Faramir article has way too much information, so Ted and I are working to cut it down), but what do you consider brief? By this, I mean that perhaps there is an example of a character article on Wikipedia? I have found character articles that expand quite a lot of the fictionous information and have Good Article status (and even Featured Article status), like Palpatine and Darth Vader. Actually, I would like to hear on what you think about the two articles I've mentioned earlier. (I hope you don't feel like I am verbally attacking you, for that is not my intention at all). —Mirlen 19:28, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Not so much focus on one sort over the other, but rather focus on both and not forget about the other sort of articles. I know how easy it is to get lost in the minutiae of Middle-earth - just look at my handle!

Anyway, I haven't had a chance to review Wikipedia's coverage of Tolkien-related subjects, but will do so as I look through the relevant categories. I tend to use something like the Category Scan tool to try and get a general overview of how the category system works for a particular area, along with looking at the portals and Wikiprojects (like this one). Obviously there will be more "Middle-earth" stuff than the "real-world" stuff, but I hope to be able to make some useful suggestions. Are there any other Tolkien-related portals or Wikiprojects? I know of the Middle-earth portal, and this Wikiproject. Is that it? Carcharoth 22:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, okay. I'll try, but I'm not much of an expert on the real world of Tolkien :P. But I see what you're saying now. Haha, yes, the fictional world of Tolkien can be very addicting to go on about.

As for the Tolkien-related WikiProject, yup this is it. There was inactive one called Silmarillion WikiProject, but we merged with them. I'm guessing that you'd want another WikiProject that focuses on the real world of Tolkien? I've been thinking about to rename the Tolkien WikiProject—I should've done it earlier and not be so hesistant about it earlier...but agh, I'm working to be a bit more bolder...but what do the rest say? It is more inclusive. And I don't think it's a good idea to have several branches spurting off when they all generally cover Tolkien-related articles on Wikipedia—better to be united and decide as a concencus, methinks. (But if I guess wrong, then never mind). —Mirlen 23:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought that a "Tolkein WikiProject" was a better name as well, but I didn't know if there was some other reason than people not getting around to it that it hasn't been named that. I'm all for changing the name as Tolkein is more inclusive, since I would tend to think that we'd include articles about things related to his life as well as just Middle-Earth. - ASchmoo 01:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Tolkien categories

Not sure where to discuss this, so I thought I'd raise it here.

I tried several times to type Category:J. R. R. Tolkien, first mistyping it as Category:Tolkien and then as Category:J.R.R. Tolkien. Does anyone know what the conventions are for categories? Should they be technically accurate, or are people expected to find them by following the path down from an ancestor category they already know about. I know some people like to be able to tag articles intuitively by typing Category:Tolkien, rather than remember the spaces and the letters. Maybe the answer to put the J.R.R Tolkien category inside a Tolkien category, and move some of the other ones into the more general category? Carcharoth 18:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, alternatively, you could have Category:Tolkien directed to Category:J. R. R. Tolkien, but I am rather hesistant on that since Wikipedia's policy states the following:

More relevantly, redirects don't work properly for categories, as stated here. I know this because I have done some work on categorisation before, though I am by no means any sort of expert. Carcharoth 22:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC) Carcharoth 22:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

• Limit the number: Try to limit the number of categories. For example, a film actor that holds a law degree should be categorized as a film actor, but not as a lawyer unless his or her legal career was notable in its own right. However it is also important to ensure that categories contain all of the most relevant articles. This means that some prominent people, such as senior politicians who have held many different offices, will be in a considerable number of categories.

This doesn't apply. I am proposing to place Category:J. R. R. Tolkien in Category:Tolkien, not place any articles in both categories. In other words, the JRRT category will become a subcategory of the wider Tolkien category. There is the worry that this will create uncertainty over when something should go in JRRT category and when something should go in the broader Tolkien category, but I think it will be a useful level of cetegorisation to have. So I'll be bold and go ahead with this in an hour or so. Carcharoth 22:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

• Before creating a new category, please be sure a similar category does not exist.

Example: You might want to list someone in Category:Canadians. Before creating that category, try to find it under a similar name. By starting at Category:People by nationality, you will discover that Canadians are placed in Category:Canadian people.

This is a good example of why I think Category:Tolkien should be created. It is possible that someone will create it if they fail to look properly and fail to find Category:J. R. R. Tolkien. Carcharoth 22:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is Wikipedia's policy on naming category on people, by the way.

So I'm not sure...In this issue, I'll bow to the expertise of the more experienced Wikipedia users who're more familiar with the conventions. :) —Mirlen 19:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Comments interspersed above. Carcharoth 22:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood me. Those two comments were not applied to your reasoning, it was more to my statement that I was hesistant on directing Category:Tolkien to Category:J. R. R. Tolkien: but I am rather hesistant on that since Wikipedia's policy states the following: . —Mirlen 22:43, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

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