Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catalan-speaking countries/Archive 1

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Catalan speakers or Catalan-speaking Countries?

There is an incongruence, sometimes one is used and sometimes the other. I think we should have only one and clar name. Now I was trying to start the Portal and I didn't know if I had to create one or the other (in the article appear the 2 possibilities...).--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 14:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, the intention is to join efforts in all related to "Catalan-speaking Countries". Altough of it, I've used "Catalan-speaker" in the templates name trying only to make it more short. I vote for Portal:Catalan-speaking Countries or, maybe it could be also as Portal:Catalan-speaking World. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 10:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Can we at least get the capitalization correct: it should be Catalan-speaking countries, or Catalan speaking world etc. I'm not a great fan of any of the proposed names, but I think this is a minor point compared to the benefits of having a working WikiProject whatever it's called :) Physchim62 (talk) 16:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

What do you think about Catalan language? or Catalan culture? (in the second I see the problem that it seems the culture from Catalonia and not from the people who speaks Catalan). But if we look at the points we are going to work about, they are more related with the language than with the people (I mean, a Catalan who writes in Spanish, belongs to the Catalan-speaking countries, but I suppose our goal is to work with the ones who write in Catalan). So, if the project is called Catalan language (or simply Catalan or Catalanesque or whatever) we can of course work on the terrirories related with our language... it's an idea. What do you think?--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 20:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

• There is a good useful consolidated precedent: the Template:Catalan-speaking world, and it's not so politically charged. --Joan sense nick 01:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Disrespectful comments

Joanot removed a disrespectful comment Maurice27 wrote. Since he acts as the typical French-Spanish nationalist, who laughs at or despises us when we claim for the same rights they already have, I'd propose to keep back that comment. Not due to masochist reasons but because it would remind us, and would help to explain others, the way we are usually treated when we try to defend or revitalize the Catalan language and culture in the lands occupied by Spaniards and Frenchies, two of the States who have committed more genocides in the history. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 11:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The comment in question was

The 3 mousketeers: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! eh buddies... Where's D'artagnan??? Maurice27 20:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Joanot, don't erase other's sentences, who gives you the right? Casaforra, please call me "French and Spanish PATRIOT"... "A patriot is a man who loves his country, whereas a nationalist is a man who hates everybody else's country" - Samuel Johnson (or possibly Oscar Wilde)-

WE, the patriots, don't call others genocides... nor we occupy lands... (something you are trying to do (we just have to look at your wikiproject home page) with the south of France and all the Mediterranean riviera which, BTW, don't belong to Catalonia...).

I may be uncivil and "namecaller" but I respect the order established. If a territory is French, I call it that way. I don't try to fool people to believe what is not. And calling a french territory, which has been french for 350 years, where only 1/4 of the population speaks catalan, to be part of "Northern Catalonia" (A "COUNTRY WHICH DOES NOT EXIST) and to be an HISTORICAL PART/COMARCA OF CATALONIA is just, simply and directly LYING TO THE USERS OF WIKIPEDIA, I repeat, LYING TO THE USERS OF WIKIPEDIA. Now, call me chauvinist, call me frenchy, call me disrespectful, call me uncivil (it is funny that Uncivil people appear when they receive uncivil treatment) , call me whatever you like to call me, BUT I'M NOT A LIAR, and JOANOT and TONIHER ARE LYING TO THE USERS OF WIKIPEDIA. And even worst, when somebody tries to touch "THEIR" articles as I did, he is attacked, reverted without explanations (or maybe 1 single line as answer to a 50 lines comment. BIG P, remember that ? ;) ). Someday, somebody will read the talk-pages of ALL the articles you have been POISONING during months, all the reverts without explanation, all the completely unaccurate edits (Joanot, do you still believe your valencian flag is the good one? You needed 3 reverts on your part to find out...)... And they will understand... And Hopefully, this project will be closed! Let's see this project name...WHAT ARE THE CATALAN COUNTRIES???? a catalan nationalist idea which has no POLITICAL NOR OFFICIAL STATUS... THEY DON'T EXIST!!! WHO IN HELL, BEING AN ADMINISTRATOR OF AN ENCYCLOPEDIA, CAN ADMIT CONTENT WHICH IS FLAGRANTLY VIOLATING LAWS, 3 NATIONAL CONSTITUTIONS, 7 REGIONAL STATUTES, AND EVEN CLAIMING AS CATALAN THE ENTIRE TERRITORY OF A MEMBER COUNTRY OF THE UNITED NATIONS (AKA Andorra)?????... But, this project is useful, and Maurice27 is a uncivil user from a genocide country... WHO CARES ABOUT THE TRUTH... And It's a shame for people like Xtv to be part of this project, somebody who, even not having my same ideas (in fact completely opposed), at least has shown me respect (and the rest of users) giving explanations in the talk-pages. It's is really a shame that the only people representing catalan culture in the english wikipedia are you, because you give some LOVELY PEOPLE such catalans,(and I mean it!!! because not all the frenchs and spaniards are "GENOCIDES"), with a SUPERB AND MAGNIFICENT culture such a BAD NAME. Now let's see how long does this paragraph take to be erased by Joanot... And how long for me to get blocked for uncivil(Which I really don't care, as long as this paragraph stays here, to honour FREEDOM OF SPEECH (A right even genocides should have)). Oh, and BTW, why not calling it GRAND CATALONIA, or the MEDITERRANEAN REPUBLIC OF CATALONIA? (no, that would be too funny... to criticize the Nueva Planta decrees for crushing catalan culture and freedom, and then, 400 years later trying to centralize all the west mediterranean riviera (roussillon, andorra, valencia, balears, alghero...) as one, single, centralized country... CATALONIA...... What a sad and ironic nonsense... Maurice27 22:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I beg to all the Project participants not to continue this discussion, at least here. Don't touch this paragraph, leave it here, he has the right to be impolite.

Now I beg you, Maurice27, not to come here anymore. Please, we have a lot of work to do. Thank you.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I have warned the editor concerned, but I should also point out that talk of "Frenchies", "lands occupied by Spaniards and Frenchies" and "two of the States who have committed more genocides in the history" are not in any way helpful comment for this talk page. Editors who are not interested in improving Wikipedia content on the basis of a neutral point of view are simple not welcome. Editors who have strong feelings about certain topics are reminded that shouting your head off is not the best way to convince people, as Wikipedia has a built-in volume control. I'm not going to bother translating that into French and Cataln, I'm sure that all concerned understand. Physchim62 (talk) 16:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC) (for the record, d'Artagnan was Gascon not Catalan)

Nor were the mousketeers catalans, who were french (AKA "the genocide country north of Northern Catalonia")... That's the second time you tell me the same thing, you just didn't get the joke... Oh... and BTW, should I thank you for being a little more neutral with your comment above) Or that's "just a little bit" too unrespectful. Je vous salue, sincerement. Maurice27 22:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Portal

I just made a skeleton of the portal. Feel free to change the colours if you don't like them. You can help also starting to put some photos and articles in order that it looks a bit nicer.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 14:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

TOC

A TOC in the project page would be useful (I propose removing __NOTOC__ from project page).--Pere prlpz 16:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 16:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed Basque Portal

It has been removed the Basque portal from the related portals. I think that it could have been better first to discuss it here. It's said there is no relation with our portal, but however I see that there is a political relation with our portal, and not only because of the nationalism (something quite important in many aspects of our portal, if you look at the lists of articles we are related with, for good or bad), but also for a cultural reason, as it's a part of the territory of a Spain with an own language language and culture and they have many of the same related problems or advantatges that we have. I am looking forward to hearing your oppinion about it.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 18:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I removed the link to the Basque portal because I thought there was no reason to be listed there. Let's reply the reasonings you give:

• because of the nationalism

Yes, there is a strong nationalist feeling at the Basque Country, but there are many more nationalist movements: Scotland, Mapuches, Brittany, or Chechnya (each one with a very different linguistical, economical, religious and political situation). If we list the Basques, why shouldn't we list Occitans as well?

• but also for a cultural reason

No cultural reason at all: They talk an isolated language, we talk a Romance language. Their language is spoken by a small percent of Basques, but here many people talks Catalan and almost everybody understands it.

• it's a part of the territory of a Spain with an own language language and culture and they have many of the same related problems or advantatges that we have

That's the only think that could link us: political reasons, we two are splitted by the same two states, France and Spain. But if we agree with that reasoning we should link a Galician portal as well (because it's under Spanish rule)... and a Corsican one, an Occitan one, and a Breton one (since they are under the French flag, too)... and why not an Arabic one? After all, they are the original inhabitants of Ceuta and Melilla.

Basques and Catalans are different in strength, in political actions, in origins, in... everything! We are only neighbours, or, more accordingly, we two suffer the same disgrace. But that's not enough to link them. In case we had to link any other minorized language and fighting for survival culture I'd propose our brothers: the Occitans. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 18:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

In fact I was thinking to put also the occitans, but I didn't find such a Portal. As you said, the Basques are the only ones who are also divided between Spain and France and there are many political relations (PNB-CiU, aliances in European Parliment, ...). I think there is an obvious big difference between our relations with Basque and Scotish. I know we are different from Basques, but we have a common problem/benefit that makes us closer than other nacionalisms. And therefore I think we can put them here. And the day the Occitans create their Portal, we can put it here also.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 20:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Catalan culture is much closer to Occitan. Our languages were considered the same and we share many things (such as Aran). The relationship with Basques is very modern and mainly because of political reasons. I do not think they sould appear with us.

As I said, I don't have anything against linking also the Occitan Portal... if it existed.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 20:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Featured article

I don't find any featured article about Catalan language, Catalan territories, and nothing (Dalí should be moved to featured biography, but first I look for an article to change it). This means we have a lot of work!--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 22:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Portal

I just finnished filling the first structure of the Portal. Now, apparently seems finished, but still needs much work. I invite you yo contribute and also to discuss about the change of name, and...--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 03:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Catalan-speaking Countries Wikipedia:WikiProject Spain and Andorra

There is a discusion here about Andorra and the wikiprojects --Kimdime69 00:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Circuit Bancaixa finals

This weekend the final matches of the Circuit Bancaixa 06/07 begin, featuring Vila-real and València teams.

In case Vila-real wins the dauer Mezquita will win its fourth consecutive Circuit Bancaixa. Also, the Via-real is called the Asylum team because its three members are the oldest professional players (Mezquita, 39; Sarasol II, 37; and Oñate, 41).

The Circuit Bancaixa is the most prestigious championship of the Escala i corda, one of the two Valencian pilota variants with professional players. The final matches are one of the main events of the pilota calendar, so I believe news about this championship should appear in the main page of the Catalan portal while the finals are being played and one week after that.

Just an opinion, of course. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 11:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

You are free to add them.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 06:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Template

I'm afraid I don't fully understand the use of template {{WikiProject Catalan-speaker}}. Should we add it to any article related to Catalan-speaking coutries? Or only to articles we edit while belonging to this wikiproject? Or only to articles discussed in the wikiproject?--Pere prlpz 18:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

To all articles related. The, they will be categorized and will be easier to wirk with them.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 23:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm Valencian and I have no problem in saying I speak Catalan, only a different dialect of Catalan than the Barcelona's one.

I've been helping in improving some Valencian-related articles. But there's a lot of work still to do, so I guess that tagging them with the template {{WikiProject Catalan-speaker}} may help categorizing.

But before any change is made I'd like to be sure what's the politics about this tag:

* Is it appliable to Valencian cities where Catalan/Valencian is spoken? I'd say so.

* Is it appliable to Valencian culture demostrations in Catalan such as the Misteri d'Elx o the Tomatina? I'd say yes.

(Ok, Tomatina is not related to the language, but it's clearly from a Catalan language origin since its name is in Catalan, not in Spanish).

* Is it appliable to people living in any of the countries where any of the Catalan dialects is spoken? I'd say yes.

But the problem arises when those persons don't write or speak Catalan. Anyway, they'd be inclosed because of the land they live and work for. Nobody has complained people such as Joan Fuster, Maria del Mar Bonet, or Josep Guia, are tagged with Spanish template, because we all agree they live in the Spanish state, no matter what our (or their) POVs are.

Please, let me know your ideas so we reach a consensus. This way, when Spanish patriots or Blaverist vandals appear, we all may explain our reasons and we don't waste so much time with angry and useless arguments.

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 13:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Stubs which could be expanded

In the past I've created all the following which are relevant to this project. It would be good if other editors could expand them a bit.

• Benimaclet
• Mislata
• Pastora
• Regional Preferente de la Comunitat Valenciana
• Sant Esteve de Palautordera
• Xirivella

Valenciano 07:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Catalan Americans

Browsing the wp I just found this article and its category:

• Catalan American
• Category:Catalan Americans

Should they be tagged as Catalan speaker?

I'm afraid I'm not sure of the task of this project: Should be adhere to people from any of the places where Catalan is spoken? Only people who speak Catalan and dismiss those who live here but don't talk it? Or embrace people from Catalan origins as well no matter where they live?

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 09:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Recommendation - exclude the present TV3 entry from the CD ROM

I strongly recommend that the TV3 entry in its present form be excluded from the CD. As it stands, it is little more than corporate hagiography and a direct lift from the TV3 web site. A properly written article should at the very least reflect the political and public controversy surrounding the station. I am sure no one would dream of leaving the public controversy out of an entry on say Rupert Murdoch or Fox News. TV3 should be no different. The fact that many readers will be unfamiliar with the debate in Catalonia is no excuse for omitting such information.

Heliodore 21:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Catalan Scouting

Can someone help render Be Prepared (in Spanish Siempre Listo, Always Prepared), the Scout Motto, into Catalan? Thanks! Chris 03:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Sempre a punt!--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 02:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Juan Antonio Samaranch

Is Juan Antonio Samaranch's catalan surnames really Juan Antoni? Juan is a castillian name and Antoni catalan if I'm not mistaken. Shouldn't it be Joan Antoni? It would also be useful with a phonetic inscription of his name. Sebisthlm 20:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Garrigues

I am currently proposing that the Garrigues page should be replaced by the content now found on the Garrigues (disambiguation) page and the the material presently on the Garrigues page should be moved to a new page to be titled Les Garrigues. If you have the time I would appreciate your comments on the Discussion page at Garrigues. I hope you will agree. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)