Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles/God vs Allah

"Allah" and "God" Debate

- God-Allah and God-Jehova are not the same. (God in the english Bible should be Jehova in the KJV is Lord) - Allah does not have a son. God has a Son which He sent as a sarifice for salvation of the world. - Allah saves by works which then are put on a balance and if you did enough good works then you'll be save; notwithstanding your good works, you'll never be sure if you are saved. God's salvation is by faith through the grace of God not by works. - Allah will take those who make it to a paradise. God will take those who accept His Son's sacrifice at the cross for salvation to heaven. There is no standardization needed to be made. There is Allah and there is God. You choose which one you want to beleive in the Allah of the Quran or the God of the Bible.

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Can we make decisions regarding how we can standardize the use of the words of "Allah" and "God" in articles. I've seen so many edits changing words to the other or putting something like "Allah (God)" and "God (Allah)." Personally, I don't really care either way, but it would be nice if we could choose one standard. BhaiSaab ^talk 04:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I have been consistently using God, and changing Allah to God. Cuñado - Talk 04:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a tricky one. I suppose it could be argued that God be used because everyone will know what that means and the God article mentions Allah anyway. The problem is made worse because the etymology of the word God is unclear. I prefer to use Allah, as it is unambiguous and carries Islamic connotations of a creator (which is what is needed in Islam articles) rather than just God. The two are definitely not synonymous (God can mean Allah, but it can mean many other things too, but Allah is a unique term and doesn't refer to any of the 'gods' of other religions) and this must be made clear. In conclusion: I propose to use Allah. MP (talk) 08:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

God, definitly. The last thing the enlish reader needs is Isa instead of Jesus and Allah instead of God. --Striver 19:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry but Allah is technically more correct. One of the things is that they are they same person, but details vary from the religions. God refers to the father of Christianity, of Jesus, one part of the Trinity. Allah, however, is not a father, but a hermaphodite (I hope I spelled that right :)), having no gender. Allah is not the father of anyone, but humanity itself. And while we're at it, please don't refer to the Devil under Islam as "the Devil", "lucifer", "Satan", or anything else. It's Iblis, they are actually two different people, Iblis is a jinn, the Devil is a fallen angel (if I remember my Mythology 101 correct). Arabic Pilot 01:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

"God refers to the father of Christianity" is false, see God. -- Striver 01:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Woops, you got me there, my mistake. Sorry (stone the noob!)Arabic Pilot 03:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello Arabic Pilot. A hermaphrodite is a creature that has both male and female sex organs, so describing Allah as a hermaphrodite (af!) is wrong. However, you were correct to say that Allah has no gender. Thanks. :) MP (talk) 14:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

So far I think we have more support for "God." BhaiSaab ^talk 21:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I also support "God." --Aminz 21:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been consistently changing Allah to God except in the article Allah. I am wondering if you guys know David Khairallah? -- Szvest 21:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

This debate was briefly discussed on the Halal Talk Page. Look it over if you wish. It is a confirmed fact that "Allah" is not idential to "God". The article on Allah very adequately states "...Allah is associated with Islam, and is used to refer specifically to the Islamic concept of God." On the other hand and according to the article on God, "Concepts of God can vary widely, despite the use of the same term for them all, and these conceptual differences are the fundamental distinctions between various religious definitions."

When an editor uses the word "God", he is interpreting/concluding that the source he is citing refers to the universal concept of God. When an editor uses the word "Allah", he is interpreting/concluding that the source he is citing refers specifically to the Islamic concept of God. Either way, I think there is a NPOV issue, because very understandably, most (all?) sources don't have a footnote at the bottom indicating which meaning they intended.

When directly quoting sources, I think the original wording should be maintained. When direct quotes aren't being used, but the choice of whether "Allah" or "God" must be made, I hold the opinion that generally, MOST sources refer to the Islamic concept of God and thus, "Allah" should be used to prevent ambiguity.

I have no proof for this assumption. Like I said before, using "Allah" is interpreting the source in one way and inserting a POV, and the same goes with using "God". I believe using Allah is correct more often than using God. All in good faith(pun unintended).Starwarp2k2 06:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Starwarp2k2, I do agree that we can not change Allah to God in the Qur'anic or Hadith quotes. Just in the wikipedia text. Also the academic sources on Islam do use the word "God". The conception of God among Christians and Jews is different but those article use the same word. I think the context of the article makes the meaning clear though. Also, "Allah" is not an Islamic word actually. It is just an Arabic word for God. Arabic Bibles use that word to refer to God. So, some have argued that in the English Encyclopedia, we should not use it. --Aminz 06:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that reading "God" in the context of an Islam related article imples the Islamic definition of God, more commonly referred to as Allah. But I still support using the word Allah to prevent any chance of ambiguity. If God is used, there is a chance that the general definition of God may be assumed by the reader, while if Allah is used, any chance of ambiguity is eliminated.

Point noted that in the strictest definition of the word, Allah is the Arabic equivalent of God. "Allah is the Arabic term for "God" in Abrahamic religions, and is the main term for the deity in Islam" reads the article on Allah. Yet, I don't think that the English Encyclopedia argument is valid because although strictly speaking, Allah = Arabic for God, the more common usage is the second one, in reference to the diety of Islam. Thanks for your input!Starwarp2k2 06:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Starwarp2k2, Thanks for your input as well. How is it to use the word "Allah" when there is a chance of ambiguity but use "God" otherwise? --Aminz 07:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It solves the problem of ambiguity, but the catch is that an article can contain both "God" and "Allah" in different places, and the problem of non-uniformity we were trying to solve is no longer really solved. And if the policy states "Generally you should use God, but where there can be ambiguity, use Allah ", that gets us no where, right? If that policy is adopted, editors now have to sit down and determine whether each reference to God/Allah is ambigous or not, making life unnecessarily difficult.Starwarp2k2 19:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I strongly object to use Allah, it might, might be usefull for disambig, but it even more so adds to the inaccurate missconseption that Muslims belive in their own God, not the God of Israel and Abraham. I also strongly object to the quote thing, if true, then lets be consitent and change every Jesus quote around to "Alah" (sic), the word for God in Jesus native tongue. --Striver 10:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Dissagreeing on the color of a car does not make it two different cars. --Striver 10:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll address the quote issue first. I believe it is wikipedia policy not to alter a direct quote from an external source. So when quoting, the original wording must be maintained, regadless of whether they use "Allah" or "God". Maybe I interpreted your point incorrectly?

Also, I don't beleieve it is the job of every page mentioning Allah to pre-emptively account for the misunderstanding some people may have. That is a clarification that should be, and is made, on the Allah page.

If I talk about the "Toyota" or "Toyota Camry", I can be referring to two different cars, but can also be referring to the same car. Would you not prefer that I use "Toyota Camry" to prevent you from think about the Toyota Sienna, one of which is a sedan and the other a minivan?Starwarp2k2 18:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding quotes: If we are quoting a translations, the the nothing must be altered, but if we are quoting another language, and the translation we are using happens to not translate "Allah", then we are free to do so, since we are not bound by any particual tranlation. Please remeber that "Allah" is not a Islam-only word, it is a arabic word. Arabic Jews, Christians and Atheist use "Allah". Pre-Islamic arabia used "Allah". It is simply wrong to equate it with the Islamic consept of God, no matter what people in the west think. --Striver 19:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand your point in the quoting issue. Can you please explain a bit more?

It is true, and I mentioned this above in response to Aminz, that Allah does not (and has not) always concretely refered to the Islamic concept of God. But in everyday usage in the English language, it does.Starwarp2k2 20:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

If a tranlations inclues "Allah", it should not be changed if the aim is to quote the translation, but it should be changed if the aim is to quote the Arabic. --Striver 21:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

So according to this, if I were to quote a website which is citing the Quran itself, should I replace "Allah" with "God" if the website uses the former?Starwarp2k2 01:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

If you are quoting the website, no, if you are quoting the Qur'an, yes.--Striver 02:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, for the reason that the Quran most definately refers to the Islamic definition of God(more commonly known as Allah), rather than just "God".Starwarp2k2 04:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding "Toyota Camry" vs "Toyota". Its not a anology of "Allah" vs "God", its a anology of "Islamic view of God" vs "God". --Striver 21:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

For our purposes, and since we are dealing exclusively with "Islam-related articles", we can generalize Allah to mean the Islamic definition of God. That is the definition that is implied in the everyday usage of the term anyway. And then the analogy works perfectly.Starwarp2k2 01:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

You just repeated your stance. No need for me to repeat mine.--Striver 02:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

My argument stands as it is then, because you gave me no substantial point to issue a new response to. All in good faith and no hard feelings. I propose taking a poll regarding this issue.Starwarp2k2 04:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Starwarp, western academics feel free to use the word "God" in their works; in books published in famous presses like "Oxford press". They even do say: "Prophet Muhammad" or "Jesus Christ". "God" and "Allah" don't pose any POV issue. So there is no problem from the academic and scholarly side or POV side. Moreover, other faith's articles do use the word God. Isn't it a bit unfair to compel Muslim editors who wish to use the word "God" to do so? If they wish to use "Allah", we can let them do so, but forcing them to use "Allah" is a bit unfair to my mind. You can see several Muslim editors who wish to use "God" because they feel people think they are worshiping a different god. It makes sense. Aside from these, there are translations of Qur'an that uses the word "God". Those scholars who didn't use the word "Allah" probably have had an argument in mind. --Aminz 05:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I propose settling the debate in the following manner: Islam-related articles use the word "God" wherever it occurs outside of quotes, but inside any quotation marks, the wording of the source must be maintained. Also, the first occurrance of "God" in the articles should be something to the effect of the following: "God (see Islamic concept of God)". I think this solution should be acceptable to all, given that "God" is used, and ambiguity is eliminated at the first mention. Seems fair to me. What do you think, esp. Striver and Aminz?Starwarp2k2 06:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Good suggestion, I think. --Aminz 06:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Its wonderfull, im all for it. --Striver 11:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, i found a ancient story/interview [on google] that goes back to a period during the emergence of the islam. It seems that the Arabs had a polytheistic god called "Allah", if i understood/interpretted it correctly, and if the story is real [not a lie], i think this is supported by the Quran.

But on the other hand, it is not very clear since the most people understand "Allah" as a synonymous of God. If this last tradition is correct, there is then no problem, because you are free to use the synonymous.Read3r 12:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, before emergance of Islam, the word "Allah" was used by Arab Christians and Jews to refer to "God" AND ALSO by pagan Arabs to refer to their highest god. The Qur'an of course, borrows this term and uses it in a very particular sense. And this is not only with word "Allah", but with too many other words. For example, I've heard that the word "taqwa" have had a different meaning before emergance of Islam; and so was the word "ayah". --Aminz 00:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Well now, remember the differences between Islam and, say, Christianity. In an Islam related article, would Allah be more correct? After all, according to each religion, their God's did not take the same exact action, and no matter what language you see a Muslim say it in, he/she will say Allah. English, French, Danish, or Arabic, this is one word that does not have translations. Simply refering to it as God can both add some level of confusion, as no Muslim texts refer to Allah as this, and "God" under the normalized-Christian sense was slightly different than "Allah" in the Islamic sense (sort of taking back to the "God is male and Allah is genderless" argument I made earlier). Take this for example: Allah is prohibited from being made an image of, much like the Islamic prophet Muhammad, while there are countless Christian depictions of God. I will admit that there is little that could be done to change my mind, but since so many people agree otherwise, I'm not bothered at all if Wikipedia uses God, I'm just stating my take on this. Arabic Pilot 22:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

"The most beautiful names belong to ALLAH, so call on Him by them…". ( 7 : 180 ) Al-Quran. According to Quran it is Allah Himself selected that name not us. Khalidkhoso 07:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"Allah" and "God" Polls

The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a poll that passed. Please do not modify it.

Proposed Standardization for Naming Convention: Islam-related articles should use the word "God" wherever it occurs outside of quotes, but inside any quotation marks, the wording of the referenced source must be maintained. Also, the first occurrance of "God" in the articles should be something to the effect of the following: "God (see Islamic concept of God)". See debates above. 16:16, 13 August 2006

• Support-- Starwarp2k2 16:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support--Striver 16:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. --Aminz 21:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support - sounds good. BhaiSaab ^talk 22:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support excellent --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 03:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support, but the formatting of the first mention of God needs work. Cuñado - Talk 04:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support - after having mulled over the pros and cons of using Allah or God in an English encyclopedia article, I've decided to make a major u-turn and agree to use God. MP (talk) 10:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support - Theres no need to use an Arabic word in an English encyclopedia when an English equivalent exists! Ozzykhan 14:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Strong support - At last we are getting serious. -- Szvest 16:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up™}
• Support - But I think, The God is more suitable.TruthSpreader^Talk 17:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Do not support - If it's a big thing, please, use God if it makes your day.Arabic Pilot 22:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
• Missing the point are we RoddyYoung 13:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC) Neither how it is written nor how it is said ultimately matters but what is meant. Context is everything. In the Baha'i context when written in arabic it is said Allah. In english when it is spoken it is said God. How God is written in arabic is said Allah. How Allah is written in english is said .... ;-) I will leave it up to you to define your meaning.RoddyYoung 13:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• Do not support- "The most beautiful names belong to ALLAH, so call on Him by them…". ( 7 : 180 ) Al-Quran. According to Quran it is Allah Himself selected that name not us.

Khalidkhoso 07:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Comments on Poll

This seems to have passed. BhaiSaab ^talk 19:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear friends. Hello. I’m new. Apologies in advance if the formatting gets screwed up somehow (WP needs an Undo button). If I may, I’d like to add an opinion, even though you have closed your poll (does that mean no one will read this?)

I find it a bit sad that Allah can so easily be reduced to God in order to avoid confusion. My points are as follows:

1. If someone types in Allah, Koran/Qur'an, Muhammad, or Islam then what they are looking for is easy to understand information. They want a perspective, an Islamic perspective. I think it is quite common knowledge in the west now that Muslims refer to God by using the name Allah. So therefore, the mere use of this name should not cause too much confusion.

2. If a tribe in the Amazon worships “Wibble” as their supreme deity and the method of worship involves wild orgies and eating sacrificial snakes, then I would be quite confused to read that they were worshiping “God”. A writer could easily say that they believe in one supreme being, thus making “Wibble” equal to “God” (complete with orgies and consumption of snakes). Wouldn’t the use of “God” in this case create equal amounts of confusion? (My Christian mother would probably react with “that’s no God I ever heard of!)

3. A Christian reading the page about an Islamic related issue may develop a wrong perception about Allah as a result of seeing the word God. After reading that Muslims believe in God, the Christian may think/assume that Muslims also worship Jesus (trinity: Jesus is God). I once saw an evangelist explaining how Jesus created the universe before he was born. Most Muslims would take issue with that.

4. As a Muslim, I have been taught that the name Allah predates Islam. I have been taught that Allah was always the name of Almighty God, going right back to the time of Adam. Ahmad Deedat, among others, make note of the similarity between the words Elohim (Hebrew) which can also be spelled Alah (with one L), and the words ilah and Allah (Arabic). (Source: http://www.jamaat.net/name/name3.html). Of specific note is the fact that Alah once turned up in a footnote in one version of the Authorised King James Bible because the authors considered alah, elohim and God to be synonomous. However, this use of alah in the Bible was immediately removed and it was reprinted without the offending word.

Please also consider the following opinion from one scholar: “Elohim, the Hebrew word for God, is derived from the word eloh, which means "god." The im is a plural of abstraction, appended at the end for respect. Allah is also related to the word ilah, which is Arabic for "god." Thus, these three words - eloh, alah, ilah - are etymologically equivalent, just as Deus, Dios, and Dio are equivalent names for God in Latin, Spanish, and Italian respectively. The proto-Semitic root for eloh, alah, and ilah is 'LH, which means "to worship." Therefore, the literal meaning of Elohim, Alaha, and Allah is "the one whom is worshipped."” (Source: Dr. Hesham A. Hassaballa: http://drhassaballa.blogspot.com/2005/05/do-we-worship-same-god.html)

The point is that Allah, while etymologically related to ilah, and eloh may not in itself mean ‘god’ in Arabic, although as noted above it can be interpreted as ‘the one who is worshiped’. It cannot be considered as an exclusively Arabic term, or an exclusively Islamic term. Also, as noted in the discussion points further above, Arabic Bibles (and also Indonesian ones) use the word Allah as being the same as “God”. Allah is not generally translated as anything else by the Muslim scholars that I know because Allah is used as the name of God and not a reference term. Some Muslim scholars, I think primarily those residing in Western countries, do make use of God instead of Allah. (For example see What’s Right With Islam is What’s Right With America, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf – Imam of Masjid Al Farah in New York). In this case, I believe that the use of God instead of Allah is more to do with public acceptance of a book (which will, of course, help sales) than to do with an academic discussion of the difference in meaning between the terms (no disrespect intended to the Imam – this is only my opinion and I could be wrong about it). The quotes from the Qur'an in this book also make use of God only. Allah has disappeared.

While there is considerable debate among scholars over whether Allah is a name or not a name, the point remains that non-Muslims will not be shocked by reading Allah in text relating to Islamic issues. To give them a steady diet of God (see Islamic concept of God) just detracts from the fact that they were keen to learn about what makes Islam tick. They wanted to know what makes Islam Islam. And one of those things is the use of Allah when referring to Almighty God. If some readers then consider that Allah is a different God to the Judeo Christian God, then in my opinion, that is a separate issue and one that should be dealt with separately and more fully in the section “see Islamic concept of God”.

From my perspective as a Muslim, being a Muslim and explaining Islam to others means referring to Allah. And then I explain that Allah and God are one in the same. But Jesus is not synonymous with Allah (unlike the Trinity). I am currently writing a book about Islam in Indonesia and I do make use of God instead of Allah in some sections, but I do so primarily when discussing western concepts of religion. In order to make it clear to the reader that I am referring to western Christian beliefs, then I use God. But when specifically speaking about Islamic issues, I tend to use Allah. Allah for me is synonymous with Islam in the Islamic world and thus should be presented to interested readers as a fundamental part of our faith, not an easily translatable and generic term like masjid/mosque.

My vote (although it’s probably too late) is:

Do not support. Use Allah in the text and in the quotations, because in my opinion, that’s what the reader wants to know about. Any reader who gets confused can exert themselves just a little more and click on “Allah (see Islamic concept of God)”. Kind regards. Hope my comments are useful. Sorry for the length. Iqraboy 14:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised at this drive to move away from Allah ( الله ) and utilize just "God". In some countries (like Indonesia) conducting Islamic ceremonies in a language other than Arabic is a punishable offense. Allah is between this extreme and just using plain English. I would think to cut down on confusion editors would just use "Allah" so that readers would instantly recognize that in the context of a given article the Islamic concept of God would be clearly evident relative to the rest of the artice. No? (→Netscott) 17:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

No. We don't see Jews writing the Hebrew tranliteration. --Striver 21:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Style

How about we always write "God (Arabic: الله)", and creat a template that we can subst? --Striver 02:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC) I am sorry but this is totally incorrect thank you and have a nice day. If you have any problems write me at cshingles1@yahoo.com

I am for this, this seems more accurate in its portrayal of the Islamic Allah, and reader won't get confused. --Djihed 19:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I created {{Allah}}--Striver 20:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)