Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Seattle Sounders FC/archive1

Eubulides's comments

• Comment. Alt text done; thanks. Please add alt text for the home and away uniforms, by filling in the |kit_alt1= and |kit_alt2= parameters of {{Infobox football club}}. Also, I suggest removing the flags from the owners and the player lists, as per MOS:FLAG #Do not emphasize nationality without good reason. I suspect that the flags are there because of tradition from European clubs, but they aren't nearly as important in a U.S. club. If the flags must be there for some reason, they also need some text next to them to say what country they represent, as a lot of those flags don't mean anything to the typical Wikipedia reader. Eubulides (talk) 06:04, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

• kit diagram alt text - Fixed --SkotyWA^Talk|_Contribs 08:07, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
• infobox flag removal - Not Fixed - So I'm not sure on this one. I went looking for other FA-level club articles and I can't find one that doesn't have flags for the coach(s) and owner(s). If the consensus is to remove the flags, let's remove them, but here are a bunch of examples of FA-level articles which have them... Aston Villa F.C., Chelsea F.C., Gillingham F.C., Manchester City F.C., and York City F.C.. --SkotyWA^Talk|_Contribs 08:07, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

• Those examples are all European clubs, no? My point was that the flags are far less useful for a U.S. club. At the very least the non-U.S. flags need to have text next to them, saying what countries they represent. Thanks for fixing the alt text, by the way. Eubulides (talk) 08:16, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

• I agree with Eubulides r.e. this article, but not that they should be removed "because this is an American club". Flags are relevant where the owner/head coach/manager isn't of the same nationality as the club. Being foreign-owned or managed is significant, but displaying an English/American/Venezuelan flag 100% of the time is of no real benefit. Going by the policy flags should be removed from the Gillingham, York and Seattle Sounders' infoboxes, and kept in the others. WFCforLife (talk) 08:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Fixed - (I hit edit conflicts with both of you trying to add this comment...) Nevermind, I just removed them. I found some that didn't have the flags... Leek Town F.C., Luton Town F.C., and Dover Athletic F.C.. It's also mildly redundant that there are a bunch of American flags there for an American team. It would be interesting/notable if one of them wasn't American. Also, there was this discussion previously where we didn't even know of the coach's flag should be German or American. At this point I agree, it's better not to have them. It's not in line with the manual of style, and we don't even know if one of them is 100% right. --SkotyWA^Talk|_Contribs 08:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. How about all those flags in Seattle Sounders FC #Current roster? I don't recognize half of them. I'd remove them; but if they're kept, they need to be changed to use (say) {{flag}} rather than {{flagicon}}. Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Removing the flags from the infobox and the roster would make the page inconsistent with every other soccer team article on the site. They form an important part of each team's detail by indicating the international makeup of the squad and the origin of the ownership/coaching group. If they are all American, it should say so, because it's an important part of what the team is. They need to stay. --JonBroxton (talk) 08:56, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Agree about {{flag}}. They are relevant in a sporting sense, because most of the non-american players (and at least one American) have represented their respective countries in international football. WFCforLife (talk) 09:06, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

We shouldn't get bogged down in this. There is not precedent to have flags in all FA infoboxes and there is not precedent to remove. I assumed there would be one way or the other to be honest but there isn't. Much like the MLS specific infobox discussion from last month, maybe this is something else that needs to be addressed in general So lets get it done. For now, I personally don't care either way since it is so minor. For now (since it would be completely bogus to hold up an FAC over a previousley unadhered to style guideline) which makes more sense? Flags: For the benefit or the detriment in this circumstance?Cptnono (talk) 09:20, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

If I could chime in here, I think the flags are important for the players, because, if I'm not mistaken, the MLS (the league the Seattle Sounders FC plays in) has rules regarding how many players from the team can be foreigners and how many must be American (I could be wrong on this - can someone verify? I know it's true for U.S. Open Cup play at least). The nationality of the owners/manager/coach is probably less important, and may not have a good reason to use flags. Just my two cents. ← George ^talk 09:28, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

They are absolutely to the benefit of the article. Indicating the nationality of the owner of ownership group indicates an important part of the club's culture, and its source of wealth; all-American, or a Latin flavor, or Russian oligarch, or Arab nouveau-riche. Having a flag indicating the nationality of the coach can give readers familiar with such things an at-a-glance indication as to the nature of the team's style of play. And having flags next to player names in the squad list gives an indication as to the international makeup of the team, which players have potential international experience, and can also be used to illustrate which of the team's players counts towards international roster limits (which don't apply for MLS, but do apply for many other leagues around the world). Also, removing flags (especially from the roster list) creates inconsistency with other articles on soccer teams around the world, when as much consistency as possible should be strongly maintained. --JonBroxton (talk) 09:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

WTF? You guys are too quick! George: Yes. But riddle me this: Does Alonso's "status" or Boss's nationality factor into our current allotted international number? (this question is for fun off the FA page)

I must have only been half paying attention since I thought it was the infobox we were discussing. (I do pay half attention alot)Cptnono (talk) 09:42, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

From the MLS rules & regulations page:

"Each team is allotted eight (8) International slots, with the exception of Toronto FC who is allotted 13 International slots, five (5) of which may be used on domestic U.S. players. All International player slots are tradable, therefore a team may have more than or less than eight (8) International players on its roster."

So the international makeup of the team is more than just trivial data, so I support including the flags for the players. I'm not opposed to including the nationalities of the owners/coaches/managers. At least some of them (for other MLS teams) are non-American for sure, but I don't think it's a big deal either way. ← George ^talk 12:56, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

We are only talking abut the ownership flags not the team, though.Cptnono (talk) 01:06, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Eubulides suggested the removal of both. I agree with George based on the exact justification he brings up, that flags should to be in the roster list. All other FA quality club articles, regardless of geography, have flag inidcators for the nationality of the players. Flags are also shown in the squad section in the WikiProject Football MOS for club articles. However, flags are not shown in that tempalte for the owner(s) and manager(s). Among the FA quality club articles, I've seen examples that have flags for the owner(s) and manager(s) and others that don't. Also, the template being used for the players only shows the flag (with no text), but if you hover over the flag or click on it, you find out quickly what country it is if you didn't recognize it. Clearly JonBroxton strenuously objects to the removal of any flags from the article. Is anyone else against the removal of the flags from the infobox? I'm not. Eubulides, is a compromise to remove the flags from only the infobox sufficient enough to sway your review towards support? At this point I think it's clear that the flags are not in the players list for traditional reasons only, there's actual justification. --SkotyWA^Talk|_Contribs 03:21, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment I know this is not a done thing at FAC, but I'm tempted to cap the entire conversation. This article uses the widely used and standard Template:Football squad player. Unless consensus exists to remove or replace it that I'm not aware of, it should continue to do so. If the template itself needs changing, the template should be changed. It's got nothing to do with Seattle Sounders FC. WFCforLife (talk) 03:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Completely agree to not touch the flags in the roster section. But what about Template:Infobox football club? I don't mind either way to be honest but don't see flags at the template. They are used in some FAs but not others. This might be something to bring up to the project but for now and with this article which way are we going?Cptnono (talk) 03:19, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

If the club is American/English/Mongolian and everyone in the infobox is American/English/Mongolian respectively, I just do not see how they can be justified. Admittedly my opinion has changed over the past month or so, but I now only think it's significant if a club is foreign owned. Imagine a Russian buying an NFL franchise and you'll have some idea of the level of controversy there is about that subject. But a head coaches' nationality is in no way indicative of his team's playing style; Gianfranco Zola is Italian, Jose Mourinho Portuguese, and Guus Hiddink Dutch. WFCforLife (talk) 03:48, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with keeping them in the roster and removing them for the owners and coach (in the infobox). Do we have consensus on this? --SkotyWA^Talk|_Contribs 04:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

It looks like the three of us are on the same page on this. I think it looks OK to remove from the infobox (not the roster) in this circumstance. Give it another day just to make sure there are not any objections.Cptnono (talk) 07:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Awadewit's comments

• Oppose on criterion 3

*File:Seattle Sounders FC.PNG - Ideally, this logo should be in SVG format. See Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Illustration workshop to request this. {This does not have to be done for me to strike the oppose, but it is recommended by Wikipedia's image policy and it makes the image look much cleaner.)

• Request Made - I've put in a request here. It looks like it's about a week turnaround though. Hopefully making the request is enough to strikeout your oposition. Thanks for the review and feedback. --SkotyWA^Talk|_Contribs 03:21, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

• Fixed team logo - It appears that Andrew c from the Illustration workshop went and found an SVG image from the club's website, uploaded it to Wikipedia, and updated the article. In general though, it appears that the folks in the Illustration workshop are not excited about creating SVGs for non-free images like this. There's another request on the page prompted from an WP:FAC review that they're pushing back on as well. Regardless, this issue is resolved now (Thanks Andrew c!). --SkotyWA^Talk|_Contribs 04:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• File:SoundersUSOpenCup.jpg - This needs a stronger purpose of use. See the end of this dispatch for advice on writing strong purposes of use.

• Fixed File:SoundersUSOpenCup.jpg purpose - I took a stab at it. Let me know what you think: It illustrates a significant historic event in the history of the Seattle Sounders FC: the club winning their first major trophy, the Lamar Hunt U. S. Open Cup, as well as some key players on the club who participated during that season and tournament, specifically: Kasey Keller, Osvaldo Alonso, Steve Zakuani and Leonardo González. --SkotyWA^Talk|_Contribs 00:25, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

• But why do readers need to see the photo? What does the photo show that cannot be described in words? Also, I don't think the description is quite accurate - I think the photo shows them celebrating, not winning. Awadewit (talk) 15:42, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

• Taking another stab at it: It illustrates a significant historic event in the history of the Seattle Sounders FC: the club celebrating their first major trophy, the Lamar Hunt U. S. Open Cup. Some key players on the club who participated during that season and tournament are depicted, specifically: Kasey Keller, Osvaldo Alonso, Steve Zakuani and Leonardo González. It is used in this article to facilitate identification of the trophy being discussed in the context of historical commentary for the club that won it. --SkotyWA^Talk|_Contribs 04:50, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I look forward to striking this oppose soon. Awadewit (talk) 17:49, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Striking oppose. Awadewit (talk) 16:05, 17 November 2009 (UTC)