Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Donnchadh, Earl of Carrick/archive2

Ealdgyth comments, all resolved

• Lead:
  • A bit of confusion here, with the "his". "As a result of his father's conflict with Uhtred and the Scottish monarch William the Lion, Donnchadh became a hostage of King Henry II of England." The last person mentioned in the previous sentence is Fergus, so it's a hair confusing at first in the first part of the sentence. Suggest either "As a result of Gille-Brighde's.." or "As a result of Donnchadh's father's ..." (prefer the first).
  • "Little is known about Donnchadh's life and rule, partly because..." the partly leads me to expect something ELSE to be a reason why, but it's never mentioned.
• Sources:
  • "Some English government records..." shouldn't it be "governmental"? I'm not sure enough to change it though...
  • (coughs) YOu just whalloped me for not translating Latin titles over at the PR for Hemming's Cartulary. What's good for the goose...
  • "... what is now south-western Scotland, the land of the Gall-Gaidhil." Were these mysterious people Gaels? Britons? What? You link it in the lead, but not down here (but you link John de Courcy both in the lead and here...) You go into more detail later, I'd just drop the "land of the " part for now.
• Geographic and cultural background
  • Link or explain "marginalia". Most folks are going to be totally lost about what it is.
• origins
  • "Fergus must therefore have had two wives, one of whom was a bastard daughter of Henry I;..." You're discussing a theory then you state as a "must" which implies that it's true then you're back to a theory or disproven later in the paragraph. While it's very convient to blame ole Henry I for yet another bastard (He had 20+!) I am pretty uncomfortable with this being stated so baldly, especially given the qualifications in the surrounding statements, can we make this clearer in THIS sentence that it's just a theory?
• Exile
  • "Historian Richard Oram did not believe that the Scots were really intending to do this..." awkward, suggest "Historian Richard Oram did not believe that the Scots wereally intended to do this..." with further "had probably acted with their consent;" to make the tenses consistent and avoid the passive.
• Ruler of Carrick
  • "... based on Donnchadh's subscription of two charters..." suggest replacing "subscription" with "witnessing" as most folks won't know the technical term "subscription" used by medievalists.
  • "By contrast the other, Melrose 192, Anderson dated to 1216, and here Donnchadh was styled comes." Reads awkwardly, although I don't have a better suggestion, maybe Malleus can come up with one.
  • "Melrose no. 192" or "Melrose 192"? Pick one style and be consistent.
  • "Whenever he adopted the title, he is the first known "earl" of the region." We've discussed so many possible "he"s before this that it's slightly jarring and confusing. Suggest replacing "he" with "Donnchadh"
  • "arable farming"? There's "non-arable farming"? Probably can drop the "arable" here...
• Church and its surviving documents
  • Awkward title, perhaps "Relations with the Church"?
  • "The grant is mentioned by the Chronicle of Melrose, s.a. 1193" need to explain what the abbreviation "s.a." means for the non-medievalists among us.
  • Link "Cluniac"
  • Link "papal bull"
• Ireland
  • Maybe it's because I'm American, but "...whose early life was probably spent just across the sea in Cumbria..." confused me. I expected "across the sea" to mean either on the continent or in Ireland, not down in England. Suggest clarifying this somewhat... maybe by specifying the sea?
  • "... was son to Donnchadh's aunt." Wouldn't "son of Donnchadh's aunt" be much less ... awkward?
  • "... dating to the reign of King Henry VI, records.." might want to point out the regnal years for Henry VI or give a date for the roll, as most folks won't realise that Henry VI is almost 200 years after Donnchadh.

Thanks for this:

• A bit of confusion here, with the "his". "As a result of his father's conflict with Uhtred and the Scottish monarch William the Lion, Donnchadh became a hostage of King Henry II of England." The last person mentioned in the previous sentence is Fergus, so it's a hair confusing at first in the first part of the sentence. Suggest either "As a result of Gille-Brighde's.." or "As a result of Donnchadh's father's ..." (prefer the first).

• Done

• "Little is known about Donnchadh's life and rule, partly because..." the partly leads me to expect something ELSE to be a reason why, but it's never mentioned.

• Well, who really knows what all the reasons were. Perhaps there was a big Crossraguel chronicle with a gesta devoted to him, but it's lost because of a fire in the 15th century. Anyway, removed the sentence.

• "Some English government records..." shouldn't it be "governmental"? I'm not sure enough to change it though...

• I'm not sure the usage preference really goes that way (e.g. "British government records" "British government records" vs "British government records" "British governmental records" on gbks)

• (coughs) YOu just whalloped me for not translating Latin titles over at the PR for Hemming's Cartulary. What's good for the goose...

• Haha. Fair point.

• "... what is now south-western Scotland, the land of the Gall-Gaidhil." Were these mysterious people Gaels? Britons? What? You link it in the lead, but not down here (but you link John de Courcy both in the lead and here...) You go into more detail later, I'd just drop the "land of the " part for now.

• This has come up before, actually. The Norse-Gaels article was designed to cover both--as Gall-Gaidhil is often understood as a synonym for "Norse Gaels" (which is what the term literarlly means), but semantic drift turned it into an ethnonym for the Gaelic-speakers in south-west Scotland (who weren't called "Scots" in this period). It needs its own article. Galwegian Gaelic is another close article. Anyways, I've now linked its first appearance in the body.

• Link or explain "marginalia". Most folks are going to be totally lost about what it is.

• Linked.

• "Fergus must therefore have had two wives, one of whom was a bastard daughter of Henry I;..." You're discussing a theory then you state as a "must" which implies that it's true then you're back to a theory or disproven later in the paragraph. While it's very convient to blame ole Henry I for yet another bastard (He had 20+!) I am pretty uncomfortable with this being stated so baldly, especially given the qualifications in the surrounding statements, can we make this clearer in THIS sentence that it's just a theory?

• There's an indirect speech thing going on here. The article voice doesn't say it's a must, and indeed, it goes on to mention that G.W.S. Barrow disproved the theory (something missed even by recent writers, like Oram) in the same paragraph. I've inserted "according to the theory" to clarify this. :)

• "Historian Richard Oram did not believe that the Scots were really intending to do this..." awkward, suggest "Historian Richard Oram did not believe that the Scots wereally intended to do this..." with further "had probably acted with their consent;" to make the tenses consistent and avoid the passive.

• Thanks for this. I agree the imperfect sounds awkward here. I've followed your suggestion.

• based on Donnchadh's subscription of two charters..." suggest replacing "subscription" with "witnessing" as most folks won't know the technical term "subscription" used by medievalists.

• Done

• "By contrast the other, Melrose 192, Anderson dated to 1216, and here Donnchadh was styled comes." Reads awkwardly, although I don't have a better suggestion, maybe Malleus can come up with one.

• Think I may have fixed it. Tell me if I haven't []

• "Melrose no. 192" or "Melrose 192"? Pick one style and be consistent.

• Thanks.

• "Whenever he adopted the title, he is the first known "earl" of the region." We've discussed so many possible "he"s before this that it's slightly jarring and confusing. Suggest replacing "he" with "Donnchadh"

• Done.

• "arable farming"? There's "non-arable farming"? Probably can drop the "arable" here...''

• Well, animal husbandry is farming but not arable farming.[1]

• Awkward title, perhaps "Relations with the Church"?

• Changed

• The grant is mentioned by the Chronicle of Melrose, s.a. 1193" need to explain what the abbreviation "s.a." means for the non-medievalists among us.

• Changed to "under the year"

• Link "Cluniac"

• Done

• Link "papal bull"

• Done

• Maybe it's because I'm American, but "...whose early life was probably spent just across the sea in Cumbria..." confused me. I expected "across the sea" to mean either on the continent or in Ireland, not down in England. Suggest clarifying this somewhat... maybe by specifying the sea?

• Over the sea from Ulaidh was meant.

• "... was son to Donnchadh's aunt." Wouldn't "son of Donnchadh's aunt" be much less ... awkward?

• Sure. Changed.

• ... dating to the reign of King Henry VI, records.." might want to point out the regnal years for Henry VI or give a date for the roll, as most folks won't realise that Henry VI is almost 200 years after Donnchadh.

• Done.

All struck Ealdgyth - Talk 13:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC)