Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Alan McNicoll/archive1
Latest comment: 10 years ago by Crisco 1492
- Have you had an image check yet?
- Not as yet, no. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll get to that either today or tomorrow. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Not as yet, no. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- McNicoll was decorated with the George Medal - wouldn't it be simpler to say he "received" the George Medal?
- I don't overly mind either way, just to me decorated seems to convey it was an award rather than, say, a prize. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Fair enough. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't overly mind either way, just to me decorated seems to convey it was an award rather than, say, a prize. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Do you need all of his promotions in the lede? Seems like a bit too much detail.
- I cut out the mentions of his promotions to commander and rear admiral, but left captain and vice admiral in. How does it look now? Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Alright. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- I cut out the mentions of his promotions to commander and rear admiral, but left captain and vice admiral in. How does it look now? Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- McNicoll died in 1987 at the age of 79. - This information is already in the first sentence of the lede
- Not quite in the same words. :P It is pretty standard in my experience to include this last bit. However, if you feel strongly about it I will remove the mention. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Looking back at my featured biographies (Chrisye, Sudirman, Lie Kim Hok, Oerip Soemohardjo, and Andjar Asmara) I've generally avoided repeating the year, although I may include the age. Do you think such a style would work for you? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- I'll have a think about this, only because I have used the same format in all of the featured biographies I have written and, at least to me, it seems to finalise the lead. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:58, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Looking back at my featured biographies (Chrisye, Sudirman, Lie Kim Hok, Oerip Soemohardjo, and Andjar Asmara) I've generally avoided repeating the year, although I may include the age. Do you think such a style would work for you? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Not quite in the same words. :P It is pretty standard in my experience to include this last bit. However, if you feel strongly about it I will remove the mention. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Duplicate links: George Medal, Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire (both lede), HMAS Australia (#Ships' captain),
- The duplicate links in the lead come from the postnominals and then their mention in the text, both of which I think can be justified. The linking of HMAS Australia first appears in the Early life section, and then I've linked again under Ships' captain when McNicoll assumed command of the ship as there is quite a distance between the two mentions. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Fair enough. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- The duplicate links in the lead come from the postnominals and then their mention in the text, both of which I think can be justified. The linking of HMAS Australia first appears in the Early life section, and then I've linked again under Ships' captain when McNicoll assumed command of the ship as there is quite a distance between the two mentions. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps an issue of AuE v AmE, but "he achieved well both academically and in sport," reads oddly to me. I'd expect "performed well"
- Tweaked. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- 1st Class Certificate - worth a link?
- Honestly, I'm not sure if there is an appropiate link for this. The closest is possibly the generic Academic certificate. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- It's up to you if you link it, although I should note that a "Class Certificate" will not necessarily be recognised by non-Australian readers. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Honestly, I'm not sure if there is an appropiate link for this. The closest is possibly the generic Academic certificate. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
In June that year, McNicoll and his wife had their first child, a son named Ian, who died when one week old, while they were residing at Portsmouth; - quite a mouthful. Can you cut back on clauses?- Reworded. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- In addition to his standard duties, McNicoll was regularly involved in rendering safe captured enemy ordnance while stationed in the Mediterranean. - Don't think "while stationed in the Mediterranean." is necessary. Last we checked he was still in the Mediterranean.
- Removed. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
HMS Punjabi failed to receive the signal, however, and continued to zigzag, ultimately crossing under the bow of King George V. The battleship consequently struck Punjabi, slicing the latter in two and igniting several depth charges on the damaged stern of King George V, tearing away sections of the bow and damaging the nearby USS Washington. - really long, could be split- Done. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
RA 51 was subsequently returned safely, though the German ships were not encountered. - is "though" the right conjunction here?- Reworded. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
McNicoll finally returned - finally feels like editorialising- Removed. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Up to this period, McNicoll had completed all but five of his years of naval service attached to the Royal Navy. - suggest removing "naval", as McNicoll didn't serve in the army or air force and we don't want to repeat naval/navy. Maybe "military service"- Done. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- That's it for today, I'll take a look at #Senior command tomorrow or so. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks very much for the comments and review, Crisco. I really appreciate it. :) Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
If Australia was a heavy cruiser, doesn't that information belong with the first mention?- In this case, I don't think so. The first mention is not really memorable, just a brief posting to the ship as a junior officer, so by the time readers come to McNicoll's command of the ship the detail probably would have been forgoten. I think it is better placed as is. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Isn't it standard to refer to ships by abbreviated forms after first mention? You do it with Warramunga, why not with Australia? And HMAS Melbourne?- Not necessarily. In this case, I've avoided the names on their own partly for the reason Tony raised above: the ships are named for a country and city respectively and, despite being in italics, may cause potential confusion. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree with this approach and note that the featured article USS Arizona (among others) uses an italicised Arizona to refer to its subject. I'd probably agree with you for someone with the last name The (say, The Teng Chun), but italics are quite distinguishable. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- There probably are a couple of mentions I can remove (which I will review in a second), but I don't really agree with the comparison here. The above mentioned article is about the ship itself, in which case it can be safely assumed one is speaking of the ship if "Arizona" is mentioned in the article. This article, however, is a biography of a naval officer who came from Australia and received shore postings to Melbourne, yet also served in the ships HMAS Australia and Melbourne. There is still the potential for confusion (particularly for visually impared editors). Abraham, B.S. (talk) 08:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I'll wait to see how it comes up (although I wonder how a text-reader would handle the italics). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:36, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- There probably are a couple of mentions I can remove (which I will review in a second), but I don't really agree with the comparison here. The above mentioned article is about the ship itself, in which case it can be safely assumed one is speaking of the ship if "Arizona" is mentioned in the article. This article, however, is a biography of a naval officer who came from Australia and received shore postings to Melbourne, yet also served in the ships HMAS Australia and Melbourne. There is still the potential for confusion (particularly for visually impared editors). Abraham, B.S. (talk) 08:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree with this approach and note that the featured article USS Arizona (among others) uses an italicised Arizona to refer to its subject. I'd probably agree with you for someone with the last name The (say, The Teng Chun), but italics are quite distinguishable. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- Not necessarily. In this case, I've avoided the names on their own partly for the reason Tony raised above: the ships are named for a country and city respectively and, despite being in italics, may cause potential confusion. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Haven't introduced Royal Australian Navy as RAN yet- That was done in the lead. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- Considering your reason for allowing a duplicate link above, based on the distance between links, I believe such a rationale could apply here. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- Fair point. Done. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 08:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- Considering your reason for allowing a duplicate link above, based on the distance between links, I believe such a rationale could apply here. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- That was done in the lead. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- A series of mishaps and accidents over the previous decade - Perhaps a footnote explaining some of these?
- Will do. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Prime Minister Sir Robert Menzies - Per WP:SEAOFBLUE I suggest unlinking PM- Done. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
How does Ted Hicks not have his own article yet?- A couple of the Defence Secretaries are without articles as of yet. See Department of Defence (Australia)#Diarchy. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, interesting. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- A couple of the Defence Secretaries are without articles as of yet. See Department of Defence (Australia)#Diarchy. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
The visible legacy - sounds rather like editorialising- I don't see how so. The sources referenced for this information all state the Ensign was a legacy of McNicoll's term as CNS, and it is fact that it is a visible one. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- Suggest (although suggestion only) attributing it, such as "According to (name), the most visible legacy ..." or "Several sources cite the Australian White Ensign as (a/the most) visible legacy of ..." — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see how so. The sources referenced for this information all state the Ensign was a legacy of McNicoll's term as CNS, and it is fact that it is a visible one. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
McNicoll was present in Saigon when the city was attacked by Viet Cong forces as part of the Tet Offensive. - Any more information about this? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)- Not really, just that the attack came near the end of his visit to Vietnam as he was waiting transportation home and that he experienced a "great thrill" due to being "a man who liked action". Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- If those are verifiable direct quotes, that would be an interesting addition to the article. Gives us an idea of his personality. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- Added. Cannot quite remember why I didn't in the first place... Abraham, B.S. (talk) 08:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- If those are verifiable direct quotes, that would be an interesting addition to the article. Gives us an idea of his personality. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- Not really, just that the attack came near the end of his visit to Vietnam as he was waiting transportation home and that he experienced a "great thrill" due to being "a man who liked action". Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)