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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/William Hardham

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Parsecboy (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 12:20, 23 May 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

William Hardham edit

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Nominator(s): Zawed (talk)

William Hardham (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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In a break from bringing the NZ First World War VC recipients to A-Class, here we have a New Zealander who was awarded the VC for his actions during the Second Boer War. He went on to serve in the First World War at Gallipoli, on the Home Front, and then in Palestine. The article went through a GA review last year and I appreciate any comments and suggestions for further improvement in order to bring this article to A-Class standard. Zawed (talk) 21:45, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: G'day, Zawed, just a few quick comments at this stage. I will come back in a while and taken another look: AustralianRupert (talk) 09:50, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • suggest splitting the second paragraph of the lead as it seems a bit long, especially when compared to the first. Suggest doing this maybe at the point that he returns to civilian life
  • the body of the article says his military career began in 1894, but the infobox says 1895
  • do we know his wife's name?
  • Yes, I have worked it in now. Zawed (talk) 07:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • are there any more sources that might be consulted? Currently, there are only two books, which seems a bit light. Does Wilkie's Official History of the Wellington Mounted Rifles mention him at all, by chance? Potentially, Hall's The New Zealanders in South Africa, 1899–1902 might also have something?
  • I have Hall, and there isn't much to be found there that isn't already in the article, except for a more detailed breakdown of the movements of the Rough Riders but it really is just a series of minor engagements that would amount to excessive detail I think. I will flip through Wilkie tomorrow, my library has a copy. Thanks for the comments so far, cheers, Zawed (talk) 07:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • AustralianRupert, whoops, we had an edit conflict just now as I was adding some stuff from Wilkie. I have finished up my additions now though. Nothing in there on his service in Palestine unfortunately but he seemed to have been sick for much of it so that may not be surprising. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 22:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No worries, thanks for adding Wilkie/checking Hall. Looks good; added my support as nothing else comes to mind at the moment. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:05, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry about the e/c; usually the software stops this if I only edit an individual section, but it didn't seem to catch it this time. Hope it didn't make you lose anything. Have a great weekend! Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:15, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM edit

Great article. I have a few comments:

  • In the lead, "that can be awarded..." is no longer true, as the Victoria Cross for New Zealand is now the highest honour for NZ service personnel, and it is distinct from the original VC which is linked. Perhaps, "that could be awarded at that time..." That is the wording I've been using for Australian recipients anyway, you might like to adopt it, or something similar?
  • also in the lead, I think it should be veterans' affairs, not veteran's affairs? Also in final section.
  • Whoopsie, have remedied. Zawed (talk) 03:46, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • in Early life, his full name should be provided at first mention
  • was Wellington a province? If not, what province did he play rugby for?
  • It will have been the province - I have linked to the Wellington Rugby Union article for clarification. Zawed (talk) 03:46, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • were the Rough Riders themselves engaged in guerilla warfare, or were they involved in counter-insurgency?
  • This was a good catch; strictly speaking, I think it was more counterinsurgency than guerrilla warfare. I have rephrased this in conjunction with a bit of expansion on the Fourth Contingent's operations. Zawed (talk) 03:46, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • link VC at first mention in the body
  • is there any summary of the Fourth Contingent's operational history that can be added? We have Murray in Australia, but I am unfamiliar with the NZ equivalent.
  • A lot of their operations in South Africa were quite bitsy, for lack of a better term. I have attempted to expand in summary form using Hall. Zawed (talk) 03:46, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • is there likely to be an article for the Ninth Contingent like the Fourth? redlink?
  • No, very unlikely I would think. While Hardham was diverted away to England, most of the rest of the contingent carried onto Africa but by the time they were in the field, peace negotiations were well underway so there was little activity.

That's all I have. Nice work on this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:36, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the feedback, I have responded to your points above. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 03:46, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from SN54129 edit

Source review edit

Image review

  • File:William_Hardham.jpg: when/where was this first published? Same with File:William_Hardham_with_bride_1916.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:19, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nikkimaria:: I can't determine when these images have been published. They are pd in New Zealand though. Zawed (talk) 06:23, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The issue is their status in the US, which is almost entirely dependent on publication date. What is the earliest publication that can be determined? Nikkimaria (talk) 10:33, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • G'day Zawed, by my reading, the images are the only thing outstanding with this review, if you could address them I think we can wrap this up. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:28, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Nikkimaria I can't determine when these were published other than when they came online. I have opted to delete them, and replace with a medal image that does have a US tag. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:11, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Indy beetle edit

My initial comments:

  • Major William James Hardham, VC MOS:BIO allows for post-nominal letters, but it is unclear how military rank should be treated in the lead. General practice seems to be against it, however.
  • It is common for officers of the rank of major and above (I've got FAs which include it), and so far as I know there is no policy against it. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very well, but this is a large dimension that should be more broadly settled i.e. should Theodore Roosevelt be called "Colonel"? Should Antonin Scalia be prefaced with "Justice" (why a different standard with military figures verses others)? -Indy beetle (talk) 22:06, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it depends on whether being a military officer is the primary reason for notability, so not Roosevelt obviously. I can't speak for non-military appointments. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:47, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am happy to delete the rank for the initial part of the lead. I have revised a later portion to mention the rank. Zawed (talk) 08:45, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • was a New Zealand recipient of the Victoria Cross was a New Zealand soldier and recipient of the Victoria cross

-Indy beetle (talk) 04:03, 28 April 2019 (UTC) Further comments:[reply]

  • Not an issue with article per say, but since his VC was awarded for service in the Second Boer War, should it not be tagged for the African MilHist task force?
  • I'm not sure but other VC articles I've worked on have been tagged by conflict/era rather than country/region of war service. Zawed (talk) 09:02, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • the Rough Riders spent the majority of their war in the Transvaal Their war? Also link Transvaal (province) here, and remove the link later.
  • Have revised, and moved Transvaal link. Zawed (talk) 09:07, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • on 1 July by the Prince of Wales Best spell out in text "George, Prince of Wales" (or whatever the proper form is, as long as his name is given).
  • a convoy of Koos de la Rey's commando Commandos?
  • Commando is being used here in the sense of a militia unit, which is relatively peculiar to South Africa, as opposed to special forces. So de la Rey led only one commando hence the singular form. I have revised the pipelink on commando to direct the reader to the South African part of the commando page which explains it in more detail. Zawed (talk) 09:02, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was the Ninth Contingent as a whole diverted for the coronation of Edward and Alexandria, or just Hardham in particular? If so, did this have to do with his award, or the fact that he had already served in conflict?
  • Oops, I missed this comment first time around. I believe it was certain soldiers, including Hardham. that went to London. I will doublecheck my sources on that when I get home tonight. Zawed (talk) 21:05, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Indy beetle:, Having looked into this some more, it was Hardham and selected soldiers that went to England. However, they went from South Africa rather than being diverted en route as I first thought so I have revised the text on this. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 22:04, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • during this engagement that Hardham received serious wounds Is it known how these were inflicted e.g. machine gun fire?

-Indy beetle (talk) 04:09, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Indy beetle:, whoops, seeing your reply to CPA-5, I realised this was another comment that I missed. I looked into this today and despite checking several different sources, none explicitly specify the nature of the wounds. The soldier that went to his aid was wounded by machine gun so most likely it was this that was the source of Hardham's wounds but I can't be 100% confident. Zawed (talk) 10:28, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Indy beetle: Hello gentleman just a question but could you comfirn or you are supporting Zawed's changes or not? If you do support then this one is ready to go. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:48, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @CPA-5: Everything looks good so far, but I'll wait on my support until all of my comments have been addressed. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:12, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Indy beetle: Thanks for looking at this, I think I've got all your comments now. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 10:31, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Are the nature of his wounds known? -Indy beetle (talk) 06:51, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
They were to his hand and chest, which I have now added. It is not clear if this as a result of small arms fire or shrapnel. Zawed (talk) 08:14, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I didn't see your earlier reply, but thanks for adding that detail. All of my comments have been addressed, and I'm happy to offer my support to this article. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:34, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentSupport by CPA-5 edit

  • parade of colonial troops in London on 1 July 1902 London oughtn't be linked. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:41, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Zawed: Hello gentleman could you address my comment? If you do and if Indy support this one then this one is ready to go. Also great article nice job soldier. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:48, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • @CPA-5:, Thanks for looking at this but it is my normal practice to link cities mentioned in text though? Zawed (talk) 22:04, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Zawed: Well you're not wrong normally you should link cities in the body. But by MOS:OVERLINK major cities features like London shouldn't be linked unless the context rules out like in an example London, Ontario. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 08:09, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @CPA-5: I have removed the link now and also dealt with Indy beetle's outstanding comment as well. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 10:32, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Zawed: Great to hear that. Sadly I just realised that Niki's image review isn't addressed. I'd say please address it and then we ought've to wait for Indy's support. In the meanwhile here, you ean my support. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:45, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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