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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Siege of Ngatapa

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 14:20, 22 January 2022 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Siege of Ngatapa edit

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Nominator(s): Zawed (talk)

Siege of Ngatapa (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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In a change from bios of flying aces and VC recipients, I bring for your consideration for A-Class a battle from one of the New Zealand Wars, specifically Te Kooti's War of the late 1860s/early 1870s. The Siege of Ngatapa was the largest engagement of that war, but "only" involved around 900 combatants and finished up with a war crime. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first article relating specifically to the New Zealand Wars that has come to A-Class, I hope it makes for a change for reviewers. As always, thanks in advance to those who take the time to have a look. Zawed (talk) 08:58, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

HF - support edit

Hope to review this weekend. Hog Farm Talk 07:03, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • "(Māori aligned with the Government) " - are we sure government should be capitalized here?
  • Have gone with lower case through out. Zawed (talk) 03:06, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Ropata Wahawaha in the body
  • I'm not seeing where the "at least 150 killed" in the infobox is originating from
  • Have revised the infobox and text regarding numbers after doublechecking the sources. Zawed (talk) 03:06, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Anticipate supporting. Hog Farm Talk 20:59, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look Hog Farm, I have made some edits and responses above. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 03:06, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Nick-D edit

It's great to see an article on the New Zealand Wars here. I'd like to offer the following comments:

  • Can coordinates for the location of the siege be provided?
  • Managed to figure out the coordinates, have added to infobox. Zawed (talk) 08:29, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A bit more background on the conflict in the lead would be useful - especially to position this battle within the broader NZ Wars
  • Likewise, a para on how the battle fitted into the NZ wars would be useful in the 'Background' section (for instance, to provide an outline of the conflicts up to the time of the battle)
  • Some material on how the government forces struggled to deal with Maori fortifications throughout the war would be useful (the Osprey book on the topic is excellent if you need a reference)
  • I have added a couple of sentences on the effectiveness of pā, what do you think? Zawed (talk) 09:51, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • " he was accused of being a spy" - by whom? (the government?)
  • I have revised this a little - I'm not sure exactly who made the accusation. Zawed (talk) 09:51, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Am I right in thinking that this was one of the larger battles of the New Zealand Wars? If so, it might be good to say that. Nick-D (talk) 04:02, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think on numbers involved it would have been, since many of the actions in the New Zealand Wars were small scale guerilla affairs. It was the largest in Te Kooti's War as he never had such numbers again. However, I don't have a source that explicitly states that. Nick-D, thanks for looking at this. I have responded above. and with edits to the article. Zawed (talk) 09:51, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those changes look great, and I'm pleased to support this nomination. Nick-D (talk) 10:01, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass edit

  • Consider adding alt text.
  • All images are appropriately licenced, positioned and captioned.

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:23, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM edit

Great to see an article on the New Zealand Wars at ACR. A few comments:

Lead
  • suggest "Te Kooti's War was part of the New Zealand Wars, a series of conflicts between the British, the local authorities and their Māori allies on one side, and several Māori iwi (tribes) on the other, that took place from 1843 to 1872."
  • link Chatham Islands
  • were the " local militia" European settlers, or a mix of them and Māori?
  • They were European settlers - I have revised the background section to note this, but don't think it is necessary to specify this in the lead. Zawed (talk) 05:00, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest "and a series of skirmishes with Māori aligned with the government—known as kūpapa—followed."
  • suggest "retreated to the hillfort—orpā—at Ngatapa."
  • suggest "At the end of the month, the Armed Constabulary—a regular paramilitary force—commanded by Colonel George Whitmore"
  • suggest "by the Ngāti Porou and some Māori members of the Armed Constabulary"

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:45, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • suggest "From 1843 to 1872, there were a series of conflicts in New Zealand between some local Māori people on one side, and British imperial and colonial forces and their Māori allies on the other."
  • could you work in early on that during the wars, the Māori iwi had access to firearms and what type was in use during this conflict? This is sort of assumed knowledge, but could bear being made explicit to provide context.
  • Peacemaker67, thanks for the review here. I haven't forgotten this comment, just figuring out the best way to resolve it. Zawed (talk) 08:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have added a short paragraph to the background section regarding weapons. Zawed (talk) 03:17, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest "was the last of these later wars, and marked the final field engagements of the New Zealand Wars"
  • suggest "a hillfort—or pā—in the Urewera hill country."
  • after introducing them, add a sentence explaining that the Armed Constabulary were full-time paramilitary law enforcement or gendarmery
  • suggest changing the piping to "In September, [[Tītokowaru's War|conflict in South Taranaki]]"
  • suggest "Te Kooti then spread rumours that an attack on Wairoa in Hawke's Bay was imminent. However, on the night of 9/10 November, Te Kooti and his Ringatū men instead attacked a number of communities in Poverty Bay, including at Matawhero."
  • suggest "Te Kooti sought revenge—or utu—for his banishment to the Chathams."
  • suggest "Soon afterwards, Te Kooti murdered a chief–or rangatira—Paratene Pototi,"
  • suggest "and sending Whitmore's Armed Constabulary back to the region"
  • what was Makeretu? a village?
  • The sources doesn't explicitly say; presumably a hamlet or village. Zawed (talk) 05:05, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Presumably Ashley Clinton? Perhaps "to the rural community of Makeretu now Ashley Clinton, about..." Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:57, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Zawed (talk) 03:17, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • in what compass direction from Tūranga was Makeretu?
  • suggest "from Tūranga—now known as Gisborne."
  • suggest "200 Ngāti Kahungunu warriors—kūpapa or Māori who were aligned with the Government—arrived in the area"
  • "met the Ringatū forces in open battle" any ideas about casualties?
  • did Ropata Wahawaha bring ammo? How otherwise were they supplied?
  • suggest "to the pā of Ngatapa"
  • "most were killed or taken prisoner"? If it was a small rearguard, "many" seems incongruous. Later it says about 60, so perhaps state that?
  • I have clarified this some; the sources doesn't specify just how many were captured which is why I refer only to "some prisoners" (as I suspect that some would have gotten away). Zawed (talk) 05:09, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • presumably Tareha Te Moananui refused to continue as part of the anti-Ringatū forces?
  • Yes, he doesn't seem to have played a role in the siege once he left for Tūranga. Zawed (talk) 05:18, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd put 0.8 kilometres (0.50 mi) in m and ft
  • "Pā had been a key to success"
  • "As Māori were usually outnumbered in their conflicts" doesn't follow, Māori fought Māori as well as British and colonial authorities. Could you reword this, perhaps "When outnumbered, Māori often used a well-constructed pā to negate the advantage..."

Down to Siege. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:08, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • just check the macron on Tūranga throughout.
  • Think I've got these now. Zawed (talk) 04:54, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • as a NZC recipient, is George Preece likely to be notable? redlink?
  • "as his men had run out of ammunition" or are we talking about musket balls in particular?
  • "His troops, who had embarked on a ship for South Taranaki"
  • "better-equipped assault"
  • "went to his home region of Waiapu"?
  • so, how many of the Armed Constabulary were kūpapa?

Down to Encirclement. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:39, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • "This affected the supply arrangements, which had placed under stress when the Ngāti Porou arrived at Ngatapa without much ammunition." not sure what is meant here, missing word(s)?
  • A "been" was missing, have added. Zawed (talk) 04:54, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest "In response, Whitmore briefly pounded the pā defences with Coehorn mortars."
  • "climbed the rock face" which side of the pā was this rock face on?
  • Have revised this description to clarify. Zawed (talk) 04:54, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest "Some Te Arawa members of the Armed Constabulary also participated in the killings"
  • suggest avoiding the double negative of "not unconnected"

That's all I have. Nice job on this thus far. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:22, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Peacemaker67, I have finished off the outstanding comments here so this is all ready for another look. Thanks for taking the time to review this one. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 03:17, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Tweaked a few minor things. Excellent work, supporting. I have also checked the sources, and the short and long citations are properly formatted, and the references appear reliable. Pass. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:00, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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