Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/SMS Scharnhorst

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:16, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SMS Scharnhorst edit

Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk)

The next article I'd like to run on the Main Page on a major centenary (her loss at the Battle of the Falklands), this article originally dates to 2009 (so there's probably still some dust that needs knocking off), but over the past week I have radically expanded it with new sources and roughly doubled it in size. Thanks to all who take the time to review the article. Parsecboy (talk) 14:33, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:17, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Have you seen this? According to this account, in mid-1915 a coastal steamer off the Brazilian coast discovered a body of a German sailor. Attached to him was a water tight 21-cm water tight cartridge containing the aft flag of Scharnhorst. The flag was sent to the Maritime Museum in Berlin, but it was lost during the World War II. MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:17, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

HRS also mention this on the last page of SMS Scharnhost section, see small print #5 MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:46, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, I hadn't seen that (and happened to skip over the notes in HRS when I did the translation work) - I'll take a look at HRS in the morning and add it in. Thanks for letting me know about it. Parsecboy (talk) 20:36, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 03:33, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comments~~Support
- No dab links [1] (no action req'd).
- External links check out [2] (no action req'd).
- Images lack Alt Text [3] so you might consider adding it (not one of the ACR criteria, suggestion only).
- Images are all PD and appear to have the req'd information (no action req'd).
- Captions look fine (no action req'd).
- The Citation Check Tool reveals no issues with reference consolidation (no action req'd).
- The Earwig Tool reveal no issues with copyright violation or close paraphrasing [4] (no action req'd).
- A few duplicate links to be removed per WP:REPEATLINK:
  - Amoy
  - torpedo boat
  - Truk
  - Kaiser Wilhelm II
  - German Samoa
  - Apia
    - All removed
- "sailed across the Pacific ocean", ocean should be capitalised as a proper noun.
  - Good catch
- "More than 1,600 men were killed in the sinking of the two armored cruisers, including Admiral Cradock...", should just be Cradock, removing rank following formal introduction at first use per WP:SURNAME.
  - Fixed
- In the references: Hough, Richard (1980). Falklands 1914: The Pursuit of Admiral Von Spee. Periscope Publishing. ISBN 978-1-904381-12-9 - lacks place of publication.
  - Added
- Overall very little to fault it. Looks very good to me. Anotherclown (talk) 11:18, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - Thanks for reviewing the article and catching all these issues. Parsecboy (talk) 20:35, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    - Added my spt now. Anotherclown (talk) 09:29, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments
The first sentence of Service History is a bit muddled:
- a) When she was laid down, her official designation was Neubau Großer Kreuzer D, she was not named until her launch a year later.
  - Well yes, but it's quite routine to refer to a ship by its name before it's formally christened with that name.
    - Just thought it might be a good opportunity to mention that detail.
- b) Isn't it a prerequisite for being a veteran to have survived the war? Scharnhorst died of wounds in 1813, that makes him a casualty, doesn't it?
  - I suppose that's true - changed to "military reformer during..."
In 1912, when Scharnhorst went to Japan, it states "and the coronation ceremony". As there is no crown in Japan, the term is a bit misleading, also in the article on the Taishō_Emperor it states he was not enthroned until 1915. While not technically wrong, maybe this should be rephrased.
- - Crowns are not required for a coronation, they're just typically used, but the word refers to any investiture of a monarch. And the article says he took the throne in 1912 - the Enthronement of the Japanese Emperor refers to a set of rituals spaced out over the early period of the emperor's reign.
    - As HRS mention a coronation ceremony and it does not concern the fate of the ship it's of no importance anyway. It was only when I followed the link that I stumbled on the enthronement thingy. BTW there also was no "heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary", but it is still the most common description of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
In the same paragraph we move on to 1913, but unfortunately no year is given.
- Added
The next paragraph mentions "Fort Löwenberg". This refers to "Shizi Mountain" or "Lion Rock" in Nanjing (cf. Yuejiang Lou). And if I read Hildebrand, Röhr, Steinmetz correctly, Scharnhorst was not involved in the encounter with Chinese batteries.
- I'll have to double check later
Glasgow is first mentioned in the paragraph immediately before Battle of Coronel, but not linked.
- Good catch, fixed.
Hildebrand, Röhr, Steinmetz give the coordinates for her sinking as 54°40' South, 55°51' West, while I can't find a reference for the slightly different coordinates in the article.
- Looks like they were added here with no source - I'll update them to the coordinates HRS provide.

ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 10:54, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for reviewing the article. Parsecboy (talk) 12:29, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My pleasure. ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 16:54, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support ~~Comments~~

Tell the reader that triple expansion engines are steam engines.
- Done
Link broadside
- Added
Why is there a comma in the middle of this?: SK L/40 guns in casemates, and eighteen 8.8 cm You have a couple of other commas in front of conjunctions like "and" elsewhere.
- I do have a tendency to overuse commas - I've gotten better but this part of the article is 5 years old or so.
  - You've still got a ton of these; do a search and destroy for "comma|space|and" in your browser.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:08, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    - Cleaned out a bunch of these, thanks.
unrest had broken out in Ponape, which required the presence of Emden and Nürnberg. Scharnhorst instead went on If her presence wasn't required at Ponape, why is it "instead" here?
- My thinking was that it wasn't explicit that Scharnhorst wasn't needed in Ponape (since an affirmative of A isn't necessarily a negative of B) and that would make it clearer.
Typo "Paganm" that's probably another of your middle commas.
- Fixed.
detached his armored and light cruisers probably best just to use "cruisers" here instead of this wording.
- Sure
Put a comma in between the first two names for HRS in your citations.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:56, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Added. Thanks Sturm. Parsecboy (talk) 14:33, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - I've tweaked the infobox and description to use ftin conversions and a few other minor points dear to me, but one point remains. What's the proper ihp for the engines? The description and infobox disagree by a minor amount. When you nom Gneisenau for ACR, be a good fellow and copy these tweaks over for me.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:08, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    - It was probably a typo here - 26,000 is the correct figure. I'll update Gneisenau's infobox when I get around to expanding the article. Thanks again. Parsecboy (talk) 12:51, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.