Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/List of battleships of Greece
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article promoted Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:28, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
List of battleships of Greece edit
Another list of battleships for WP:OMT - this comprises a pair of dreadnoughts ordered to counter Ottoman expansion, and a pair of old US battleships bought as stop-gap measures. The list is short, but it's comprehensive for the size of the topic, and is based on earlier lists from other countries. Thanks in advance to all editors who take the time to review the list. Parsecboy (talk) 01:57, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support for content (as opposed to prose, at coord's discretion). Has everything I'd expect to see, with suitable referencing, worthy sources. Obviously the format comes under a little strain with single ships and no real classes, but I think. Are "Gardiner & Chesneau" authors, or editors as Gardiner was in other books in the series? Also, England isn't the primary locator (I think "United Kingdom" would be better", as with Greenwich). I assume that "England" is given because Windsor is not well known - but I have no idea which state "MD" is. Would it be heresy to give the country? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 23:29, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments There is one basic flaw in this article that has not been resolved. The three Hydra-class battleships are not included. I know some of the folks here don't consider them to be battleships, but the fact of the matter is that naval publications at the time (and many today) do consider them to be battleships. For example Brassey's Naval Annual lists them as such. This must be addressed in some form before this article can achieve A-class i would imagine. Similar problems will arise if a list of Japanese battleships ever gets to A-class review. Is it known what they were officially classed as by the Greek Navy?XavierGreen (talk) 03:39, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The issue is, the term "battleship" was highly fluid, especially in the 19th century. Essentially all capital ships at least as far back as the 1850s were "battleships", though today we classify them as steam battleships, ironclad battleships, etc. The three Hydra class ships are not now regarded as modern battleships like the Royal Sovereign class was; they belong to the ironclad era. As such, they belong on a List of ironclad warships of Greece list, along with Vasilissa Olga and Vasilifs Georgios. It doesn't exactly matter what the Greeks called the ships at the time, for the reason outlined above. If you look at modern sources (for instance, Conway's), you'll see that they're typically not classified as battleships. Parsecboy (talk) 10:44, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Regardless some modern texts still call them battleships, and at the very least some note needs to be added explaining why they are not included in the list as a greek naval historian would likely expect them to have them included.XavierGreen (talk) 16:48, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, I haven't seen them called battleships by any modern text that was in any way expert - non-specialist or amateur works sometimes do, but we don't base our articles on those. Nevertheless, I have added a note on the earlier ironclad vessels. Parsecboy (talk) 22:25, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- FYI: I check Sondhaus Naval Warfare 1815-1914 and he calls them armored cruisers which seems more accurate than 'ironclad' to me.Kirk (talk) 18:20, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- They are refered to as Battleships in Greek Naval Strategy and Policy, 1910-1919 by Zisis Fotaksis, [[1]], in Steve Crawford's Battleships and Carriers [[2]], various editions of Brassey's Naval Annual example here [[3]], the Naval Institute' Proceedings [[4]], the Journal of the Military Service Institution [[5]]. The vast majority of contemporary Naval analysts and historians definitely considered them to be battleships, and likely half of modern naval authors consider them to be as well. This needs to be reflected in the list.XavierGreen (talk) 18:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Xavier that at least some reference ought to be made of them. This reflects the operational role assigned to these vessels: in the absence of "proper" battleships in Greece (and the Ottoman Empire), both the Hydra class and later the cruiser Averof were used as capital ships and were classed accordingly. This means you'll have trouble finding them referred to as anything other than "battleship" (θωρηκτό, which actually means simply "armoured") even by specialist Navy sources in Greek. Constantine ✍ 09:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Xavier - Crawford also includes the German Deutschland-class cruisers, which implies his definition of what a battleship is is somewhat expansive. The journals you linked to are all period pieces, not modern works. Their usage is largely irrelevant.
- Constantine - you make my point with the phrase "in the absence of 'proper' battleships". This is a list of "proper" battleships, not ships that were used as capital ships because the Greeks couldn't afford actual battleships. The Hydra class's direct contemporaries, the British Trafalgar class and the Italian Re Umberto class, for example, were two or three times as large and much more powerfully armed. In no way were the Hydra class ships even second-class battleships. Parsecboy (talk) 13:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Parsecboy; I wonder if the translation from Greek to English contributes to the confusion. Compare them to the British Orlando class cruiser which they are pretty close to in time, size, armor and armament. Kirk (talk) 16:36, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Xavier that at least some reference ought to be made of them. This reflects the operational role assigned to these vessels: in the absence of "proper" battleships in Greece (and the Ottoman Empire), both the Hydra class and later the cruiser Averof were used as capital ships and were classed accordingly. This means you'll have trouble finding them referred to as anything other than "battleship" (θωρηκτό, which actually means simply "armoured") even by specialist Navy sources in Greek. Constantine ✍ 09:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- They are refered to as Battleships in Greek Naval Strategy and Policy, 1910-1919 by Zisis Fotaksis, [[1]], in Steve Crawford's Battleships and Carriers [[2]], various editions of Brassey's Naval Annual example here [[3]], the Naval Institute' Proceedings [[4]], the Journal of the Military Service Institution [[5]]. The vast majority of contemporary Naval analysts and historians definitely considered them to be battleships, and likely half of modern naval authors consider them to be as well. This needs to be reflected in the list.XavierGreen (talk) 18:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- FYI: I check Sondhaus Naval Warfare 1815-1914 and he calls them armored cruisers which seems more accurate than 'ironclad' to me.Kirk (talk) 18:20, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, I haven't seen them called battleships by any modern text that was in any way expert - non-specialist or amateur works sometimes do, but we don't base our articles on those. Nevertheless, I have added a note on the earlier ironclad vessels. Parsecboy (talk) 22:25, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I added the journals to show that contemporary Naval Analysts of the time the ships were in commission, regarded them as battleships. It should be noted that the same journals describe Averof as an armoured cruiser. While they were in commision the ships were regarded by the vast majority of naval analysts of the day as being battleships. And to this day many authors still consider them to be so. If you would like more sources, i be happy to provide them.XavierGreen (talk) 15:41, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- These ships are about 3/4 the size of the smallest 2nd class battleship of the period and are pretty comparable to the German Siegfried class coastal defense ships. Conway's All the World's Fighting ships 1860–1905 calls them armored ships and Tony Gibbons' Complete Encyclopedia of Battleships lists them (without characterizing them) right next to the Siegfrieds, which it explicitly calls coast-defense ships. Conway's Battleships doesn't list them at all. Isn't there a book in the ABC-Clio series on battleships? What does that say? So I'll call you on modern characterizations of them from experts more knowledgeable than Crawford and the like.
- I suspect that some of the nomenclature issues probably arise from translations of what the Greeks called them. They were the biggest ships in the Greek Navy until they bought Averoff from the Italians. I'll note that the Italians used the same term, navi da battaglia di 1a classe, for both armored cruisers and battleships, but we have no problems with anybody trying to lump those ship types together in English-language sources.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 06:15, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Regardless some modern texts still call them battleships, and at the very least some note needs to be added explaining why they are not included in the list as a greek naval historian would likely expect them to have them included.XavierGreen (talk) 16:48, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The issue is, the term "battleship" was highly fluid, especially in the 19th century. Essentially all capital ships at least as far back as the 1850s were "battleships", though today we classify them as steam battleships, ironclad battleships, etc. The three Hydra class ships are not now regarded as modern battleships like the Royal Sovereign class was; they belong to the ironclad era. As such, they belong on a List of ironclad warships of Greece list, along with Vasilissa Olga and Vasilifs Georgios. It doesn't exactly matter what the Greeks called the ships at the time, for the reason outlined above. If you look at modern sources (for instance, Conway's), you'll see that they're typically not classified as battleships. Parsecboy (talk) 10:44, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments/suggestions:
- the images appear appropriately licenced to me (no action);
- in the lead, this probably should be reworded slightly: "As a result, only Kilkis and Limnos were the only battleships delivered to Greece". I suggest removing the first "only";
- this might need tweaking: "The new battleship was to be named Vasilefs Konstantinos to the same design as the French ". I suggest something like: "The new battleship was to be named Vasilefs Konstantinos and was to be built to the same design as the French..." (emphasis added to highlight suggested change only);
- "The contract dispute was settled in 1925". This might need clarification as there doesn't appear to be any mention of a contract dispute before it is said to have been settled. The table says that the ship was broken up; I think that that should probably be added to the paragraph.
- inconsistent: in the lead "stop-gap measure", in the Kilkis class section "stopgap measure";
- in the Kilkis class section "Ottoman Empire" is possibly overlinked, having been linked in an earlier section;
- in the Kilkis class section "World War I" is possibly overlinked, having been linked in an earlier section;
- there is a slight inconsistency in your ISBNs; some are hyphenated and some aren't;
- there is a slight inconsistency in the three Conway's titles. One has a colon before the date ranges, one has a comma and the other has nothing. This might be correct, or it might be a couple of typos. It is really minor, of course, but if you can, please check this;
- in the Sondhaus source it is "London, UK", but in the Hore source it is just "London": this is inconsistent. AustralianRupert (talk) 09:08, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support
- Technical bits:
- Nitpicks:
- References: Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships at Worldcat is shown as 1906-1921, not 1922 [9]
- history.navy.mil refers to Limnos as Lemnos.
Prose is good; no other concerns. Nice article :) EyeSerenetalk 11:11, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, EyeSerene - fixed the year in Conways. I had left it Limnos when I rewrote that article and did this list, but Lemnos appears to be preferred in other sources as well. Also, the articles are at Lemnos and Naval Battle of Lemnos, so it makes sense to have these articles match that spelling. Parsecboy (talk) 12:35, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:25, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.