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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients (Ba–Bm)

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:45, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients (Ba–Bm) edit

Nominator(s): MisterBee1966 (talk)


I am nominating this article for A-Class review because this list is very much like all the other A-Class Knight's Cross recipients lists. Unique to this list is the fact that this list had to be split because of size. When reviewing please pay close attention to this aspect. Thanks in advance. MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:18, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:57, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • to your usual high standard, MB. A couple, following on from my last lot of nitpicking...
  • there are several (excluding the ones Scherzer has queried) that have only the alternative source note for rank, and also date of award. A couple have several variances all noted against one column, but not against the others against which they vary.
  • Thanks, I believe to have found them all and corrected them. Omissions are not intentional but are due to carelessness or lack of oversight on my part. MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • is the Berger "Further reading" suggestion appropriate given it appears to be self-published?
  • I think yes, others may feel differently. Berger provides his sources which includes all the contemporary literature on this subject (Busch & Röll as an example for the U-Boat commanders) MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:33, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • fn 92' presented (by)?
  • fn 81 "at least it not prevailed" isn't clear (or grammatically correct). Same, was not listed (in)...
  • you use the term "the troop" in the fn's. In English this means a platoon or similar sized element. Do you mean his unit?
  • This is probably attributed to my deficiencies in mastering the English language. I am using the term "troop" as generic and unqualified military unit or entity. The German semantically equivalent word I am looking for is "die Truppe" which literally translates to "the troop". In German it could mean a platoon, regiment or division (or any other organizational unit) depending on the context in which it used. So when I write "the troop had nominated XYZ for the Knight's Cross" I am saying that his respective governing military unit has nominated XYZ without having to be precise. I hope you can understand what I am trying to say and maybe you have a better word or expression to use? MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:31, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe unit or formation (for regiment and larger) is the appropriate term. Was the nomination by his unit or by the commander of that unit? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 14:50, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to Scherzer, nominations for the Knight's Cross could be made at company level or higher. I have started documenting the approval process in the KC article. It is far from complete because the process broke down at the end of the war and multiple scenarios were possible. Lot's of work left before I feel comfortable with the article. The sources do not mention who or what entity triggered the nomination process. That is the main reason why I am looking for a vague and generic term. MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:11, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm assuming the commander of whatever sub-unit, unit of formation must have endorsed any nominations? IMO "unit" is a far better generic translation than "troop". But, it is perhaps better to say "XYZ was nominated for the Knight's Cross" and thereby avoid using troop or unit? Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:49, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • "For many years Fellgiebel's book was considered the main reference work on this topic and has now been succeeded by Scherzer's work" is nonparallel, because it expands to: "For many years Fellgiebel's book was considered the main reference work on this topic and for many years Fellgiebel's book has now been succeeded by Scherzer's work." ("for many years ... has now" doesn't work). "... topic, and it ..." or " ... topic, but it ..." would work.
  • "(Air force)": Either it's a proper noun (Air Force) or it isn't (air force).
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. - Dank (push to talk) 17:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I believe that this meets the A-class criteria. I wasn't able to check the image licencing, though, because my internet connection is not reliable at the moment. I made the following edits: [1] Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:40, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - up to your usual standards, MB. All of the images check out - most are Bundesarchiv photos or derivatives thereof, the other two photos are fine. Parsecboy (talk) 18:15, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Whilst I am at it:

  • Is chief the appropriate title for the commander of a company? If not a Native American, I would consider him a senior NCO. Meanwhile, a "leader" is usually the temporary commander of an unit.
  • the translations used are Chef—chief, Führer—leader and Kommandant—commander MisterBee1966 (talk) 21:19, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, if the native speakers here are happy with it, it's fine with me. ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 05:20, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • A lot of German terminology is used - wouldn't it help to either translate these terms or link them?
  • I was advised before to use a footnote to address the translations, see Note 2 MisterBee1966 (talk) 21:19, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hadn't seen that article yet, but makes sense to me. What I actually referred to were terms like "Nahaufklärungsgruppe". I only have a vague idea what that might have been. ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 05:20, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Commander-in-Chief" of a field army? "Commanding General" of a corps? Sounds like general officer commanding would be a good place to look at.
  • Translations used Oberbefehlshaber—Commander-in-Chief and Kommandierender General—commanding general MisterBee1966 (talk) 21:19, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • company troop leader". A "Trupp" is the smallest unit in the German military, equivalent of a fireteam
The glossary gives "Company headquarters section leader" as translation. As a troop is a company-size unit in the US cavalry, it might give a wrong impression as to the size of the unit (usually 2-8). Here is a useful page on the TO&E of a rifle company. ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 05:20, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added "(similar to fireteam)", please check if this addresses your comment adequately. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • BTW: die Truppe usually refers to the enlisted men in a given unit or formation - set apart from the officer corps. Thus the nomination seems to have initiated from the subordinates. The question is how it was presented to superior levels.
ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 19:51, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I may, translation of terms from the German can be more problematic than usual. Having worked in a combined environment with the Heer, Bundesheer, British Army and others in a NATO setting, I may be able to help a little. "Troop" in Commonwealth armies always relates to a platoon-sized sub-unit, not company-strength. We are better off referring to "unit" if we want a really generic term for any sized element of soldiers. In Commonwealth armies, "units" are usually battalion strength, anything above that is a "formation", and anything below that is a "sub-unit". I appreciate there are dissimilarities with US arrangements, but I have found NATO approaches to terms are usually best to make terminology as "universal" as possible. Food for thought. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Currently I translated Kompanietruppmelder—Company troop (similar to fireteam) messenger and Kompanietruppführer—Company troop (similar to fireteam) leader. I am open for suggestions on how to improve the semantic correctness. MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:05, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would translate Kompanietruppmelder as "company headquarters runner/messenger/courier", that is the function they performed, hand delivering messages from the company commander and staff to subordinate platoons etc and up to battalion level in the absence of radio comms. Kompanietruppführer relates to the person responsible for commanding the company headquarters troops (ie not the commander of the whole unit), in a Commonwealth context that person would usually be the company sergeant major. I would translate that as troop leader of the company headquarters. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:14, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
done, put the translation in brackets and left the original German wording. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:51, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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