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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Landings at Cape Torokina

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Peacemaker67 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 03:30, 8 February 2018 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Landings at Cape Torokina

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Nominator(s): AustralianRupert (talk) and Hawkeye7 (talk)

Landings at Cape Torokina (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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After working on several articles on the later battles of the ground campaign in Bougainville in 1943–1945, I thought it might be interesting to look at the operation that pretty much began the main Allied campaign on the island. The development of this article has been the result of collaboration by many editors, including Hawkeye and myself, as well as quite a few others before we got to it who all helped in their own way. The article went through a successful GA review over the Christmas break, and I am hoping that an A-class review will help improve it further. Thank you to all who stop by. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:46, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments It's great to see a good quality article on this under-remembered but key battle of the Pacific War. It's in very good shape, but I'd suggest expanding the coverage of state of play in the region at the time of the invasion to provide stronger context and the results of the operation to make it clearer what an important operation this was. I'm currently reading a book on the air campaign against Rabaul, so can help with some of the below if you'd like.

Support My comments are now addressed: nice work Nick-D (talk) 10:16, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Support Reviewing by Cinderella157

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Adding some comments by sections.

Lead

  • Suggest: "establishing several airbases from which to project air and naval power", as these were not just airbases.

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 10:56, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Over the course of the next two days, ...". This reads as if it is after the second day. Suggest: "Over the course of the two days following the landing, ...".

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 10:56, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • "... US and New Zealand fighters ...". Link to fighters?

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 10:56, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • "A strong Japanese naval force was dispatched ... clashed with a strong US naval task force ...". Consider reword to avoid repetition.

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 10:56, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I may come back to the lead, depending on other sections. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 08:25, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

G'day, Cinderella. Thanks for taking a look. I have made the following edits: [2]. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:02, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opperation Cherry Bloossom is a redirect to this page. Is it worth writing it into the lead too? Cinderella157 (talk) 12:16, 1 February 2018 (UTC) PS Check Cherry Blossom v Cherryblossom for accuracy and consistency, including redirect. I just noticed that Cherryblossom may not be a typo? Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 12:33, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 14:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Background

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 12:07, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 14:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • "the Japanese had sought to strike struck south towards Guadalcanal". They did strike south.

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 12:07, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • The third para sentence structure was particularly complex. I have rewritten this, mainly for readability. I hope this is satisfactory. I have clarified some locations and corrected a link.

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 14:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • "It was decided to bypass the Shortland Islands and Kahili, ...". Wasn't Choiseul also bypassed? The Raid on Choiseul article does not indicate a conclusion - did the raid lead to further operations there and the ultimate capture? A footnote at this point (by way of clarification) might be appropriate.

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 14:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Nevertheless, the location was chosen because of its distance from the main Japanese concentrations around Buka and Buin, which would help to avoid a protracted battle ...". Just finished saying these were the only landing beaches? The location afforded an anchorage and a landing beach in a location that was defensible (for various reasons) - even though it was not ideal for airfield construction and with no alternatives! Should be reworded accordingly.

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 14:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 14:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 14:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • "There was actually about 65,000 Japanese on the island in November 1943." Long (p237) qualifies this figure: "... remained out of about 65,000 who had been on the island when the Americans attacked in November 1943, or had arrived soon afterwards." Battle of Koromokina Lagoon gives figures associated with the landing and further reinforcements (see Aftermath). A revised figure for the landings can be estimated by combining info from these. 700 went to Buka and only 100 survived the Battle of Koromokina Lagoon out of nearly 500 landed (use 100 or 500 - I used 100). Other landings are (about) 5700, 3600 and 6700 for my total of 16800 or 48200 immediately before the landings (if I got this right). The estimate isn't out by that much after all? This probably needs a note. The main text should not give the impression that the number was 65000 (IMO).
    • Thank for pointing this out. Morison provides a figure of 40,000 troops and 20,000 naval personnel by 1 November (for Bougainville and the outlying islands), so I've added a range to that which Long provides, and tweaked it to included the clarification that some arrived after. Also mentioned the concentration at Mosigetta. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 05:28, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have made an edit that describes the main concetration to be at in the south. This is to avoid the appearance of a discrepeny at this point. Mosigetta does not appear on the map (nor does Kieta, but I have dealt with that by describing it as on the central east-coast). From the map in Long (p 91), Monsigetta is inland (due east) from the southern end of Empress Augusta Bay. It is about 2/3 the way north from Slaters Knoll to the RJ from the south end of the bay, where the track kinks. From Long's map, I estimate this as 12 mi (20 km) from the southern end of the bay (before it juts out to Motepuna Point). Suggest an edit to describe the location based on this: "... there were around 1,000 troops at Mosigetta. Monsigatta is [was] located [add description]." The finer points of strength should be dealt with in the next section - as it appears to be. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:39, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 08:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese
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  • " In addition, elements of the 17th Division were scheduled to reinforce Bougainville in mid-November." But played no part in the landings? Were they in place at Rabaul already? It seems curious to mention it.
  • "The main concentrations of Japanese troops were as follows: 6,000 around Buka, in northern Bougainville; 5,000 on the Shortland Islands, and between 2,000 and 3,000 around Empress Augusta Bay." This figure comes up well short? See though, Rentz (p18): "Intelligence estimated enemy strength as follows: Northern Sector (Buka area), 5,000 troops; Eastern Sector (Numa Numa-Kieta area), 5,000 troops; Ballale and adjacent islands, 3,000 troops; Shortland area, 5,000 to 6,000 troops; Southern Sector, 17,000 troops. The only enemy concentration of any strength in the Empress Augusta Bay area was estimated to be 1,000 troops at Mosigetta." and Milner (p235): "Intelligence estimated enemy strength as follows: Northern Sector (Buka area), 5,000 troops; Eastern Sector (Numa Numa-Kieta area), 5,000 troops; Ballale and adjacent islands, 3,000 troops; Shortland area, 5,000 to 6,000 troops; Southern Sector, 17,000 troops. The only enemy concentration of any strength in the Empress Augusta Bay area was estimated to be 1,000 troops at Mosigetta." I couldn't see Morrison to get more context on his figures.
    • Adjusted a bit. Please see my comment above. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 05:28, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Firstly, I have read that the total included labour and construction units which, to my understanding, were non-comatant units - unlike "combat" engineers (for want of a better term). Sorry I can't give a source ATM. Secondly, the estimates were "reasonably" close - closer than 60,000 - 65,000 v 35,000 - 44,000 suggests as one reads it (or so it appears). While Mossison quotes 60,000 at 1 Nov, Long quotes 65,000 (including landing shortly after). Morrison (p 348) reports (further?) about 16,000 (or more), mainly landing between 8-13 Nov. I can't see any reference to these landings in Rentz or Miller nor do I have access to see Morrison's sources. This 16,000 brings the figure "much" closer to the estimates, that appear to have been based on "reliable" sources (including ultra?). It is worth a little more "digging", to be sure of the figures and to reconcile the differences. Perhaps, @User:Hawkeye7 might shed some light on this? Finally, of the 60,000 odd thousand(?), only 12,000 - 15,000 are accounted for in the "major concentrations". Who is where needs to be reconciled. Miller and Rentz give figures that are consistant with the intelligence estimates, but these fall short of the 60,000 plus reported (by about 16,000)? There needs to be a clearer/more consistent explanation - either in the main text or a footnote. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 13:25, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        Morison says 40,000 troops and 20,000 naval personnel (p. 181). It is true that many of the Japanese personnel on Bougainville were in logistical units. But it is also true that as the campaign went on, they were drafted into combat units as reinforcements. I couldn't find the 16,000 figure in Morison; he says "No Army reinforcements got into Bougainville after 1 November, except a few hundred men sent into Buka, and the only reinforcements that got through came in a few submarines and float planes." (p. 416) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:27, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        Adding up the figures in the article gives ~40,000 troops, which was the Allied estimate. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:45, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        Checked Morison p. 348 and I also couldn't find a figure of 16,000 Japanese reinforcements over the period 8-13 Nov. The only 16,000 figure on that page that I could find was in relation to the size of the perimeter. I wonder if we are looking at different editions? On p. 349 of my edition it has "so, instead of expediting a counterattack on the Perimeter by the 15,000 or more Japanese soldiers in southern Bougainville, he [Imamura] reinforced the region up north and there awaited an attack that never came." I've added something from p. 362 about a minor effort to reinforce from southern Bougainville that was defeated in mid-December. Sorry, I'm not sure how to adjust this further beyond what Hawkeye has added here: [11]. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 00:37, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        Clarified the location of the 20,000 naval personnel also. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:18, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Operation RO? Japanese defensive plan against Allied attacks on Rabaul? Since there is no link might explain? See also from [12] (p259 from[13]): "Now in response to the urgent appeals, down to Rabaul on 1 and 2 November went planes comprising the forces from four or five carriers, together with all the fighters from Ozawa's air fleet, numbering between 250 and 300 aircraft. Their arrival boosted the total forces on the four operational fields at Rabaul to nearly 550 planes, of which 390 were fighters, and out at the seaplane anchorages were 36 more float planes." From Milner, Operation RO appears to an offencive striking at the Allied LOC to delay their advance while giving the Japanese time to strengthen a reduced defensive perimiter in the SW and Cental Pacific? (see also Milner pp 212-213). Milner actually states (p248) that the carrier planes did not attack on 1 November. Text reads (suggests) as if they were not employed at all in the period 1-3 Nov. At p234 he reports: "It was Ozawa's carrier pilots who gave Kenney's men such a hard fight on 2 November." But this isn't clear as to wheter it was over Bougainville, the landings or Rabaul. At p252: "More planes from Rabaul would doubtless have come out after Merrill that day but for the Fifth Air Force's raid on the airfields, which the Japanese carrier pilots contested so hotly." Therfore, many (at least) of the carrier planes were tied up at Rabaul on 2 Nov? Started tweaking the last para but it was getting complicated. I saved it as it might be a good start.
  • Rohfleisch, Kramer J. (1950). "Bougainville". In Craven, Wesley Frank; Cate, James Lea (eds.). The Pacific: Guadalcanal to Saipan, August 1942 to July 1944. The Army Air Forces in World War II. Vol. IV. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. OCLC 5732980. Retrieved 18 June 2017. (pp245-280) The Ref, Craven and Cate has chapters published by individual contributors. I think this is the correct citation. This is the source in the point above. This section Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 04:42, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 13:32, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As a comment, it's quite common for historians (including other official historians) to simply reference Craven and Cate, especially when using multiple chapters from a volume. Nick-D (talk) 23:49, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, thanks, Nick. I think as I had previously included a chapter entry for another source, this hopefully makes it consistent at least with that approach. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:21, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
This section is all resolved. I apologise for my faux pas and the 16,000 phantom troops that didn't land. The major inconsistency was resolved by identifying the number of naval personnel. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 03:43, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Battle
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  • I observe that mixed cardinal points have been used to describe locations and landing on the beach - ie north and west to describe the same direction when the beach generally runs northwest to southeast?

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 12:18, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • I note the inconsistent capitalisation of "the M|marines" in the article, when it is used to refer to the marine forces generically (rather than as part of the specific name of a unit). Whether it should or shouldn't be capitalised in such a case is another issue ...
    • Adjusted. I would normally use lower case, but went with uppercase as I believe that is how it was when I got to the article, so felt it best to retain the extant style. Happy to change if there is consensus, though. AustralianRupert (talk) 11:16, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done It is a can of worms. A recent edit to MOS:CAPS says otherwise but the discussion is unresolved. You might look at it out of interest. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:18, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • I note the use of AA guns against the landing craft. This is not mentioned in the "Japanese" section. It begs the question, where did they come from?
    • @Hawkeye7: The source doesn't go into much detail, I'm afraid. It just says " constant fire from enemy pill boxes, antiaircraft and machine-gun emplacements in the beachhead area" (p. 268). We could potentially add it to this sentence earlier in the article: "They were supported by a single 75 mm field gun, and several mortars" to make it "They were supported by a single 75 mm field gun, as well as several mortars, and anti-aircraft and machine-guns". Thoughts? AustralianRupert (talk) 11:34, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Rentz (if not Miller or both) describe the pill boxes as having 2 x MGs ea plus "normal" weapons and the 75 mm gun. "Mortars" in the article, implies to me Mdm mortars, though these might (probably) be light mortars per normal weapons. There is no mention of AA weapons. The article refers to MG and AA fire being brought to bear - more than MG AA fire? Would have thought the OHs would have mentioned? Detailing my concerns, mainly for Hawkeye. Regards Cinderella157 (talk) 12:18, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking back (and because of the difficulties experienced landing), Miller and Rentz (both I think) note that in selecting the bay, it is an exposed beach and did not offer good anchorage. This might be worth comment in the early part of the article?

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 12:18, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • As an aside, How can the campaign map be modified? With a couple of references to Kieta, its location becomes pertinent. I tried to modify it with limited success, mainly because the source image is of such low resolution that added text becomes pixelated, difficult to read and "different" from original text. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:03, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • The image was created by Spoolwhippets with the Australian battles in mind, I believe. He isn't really active, but occasionally stops by to update maps if asked. I've added something to the text to clarify where Kieta is. This map also shows it (as well as Mosigetta): [18]. I wonder if swapping the maps would work here? AustralianRupert (talk) 11:16, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done

Aftermath (intro)
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  • "The last group, having landed on the Magine Islands ...". Was this a group of barges. The preceding text suggests it was a group of troops that was destroyed by artillery?
  • "... with the 15,000 troops that were stationed in southern Bougainville." Suggest: " with the 15,000 (or more) troops that were stationed in southern Bougainville." This comes from preceding on Japanese strength that says 17,000? I don't think it needs an additional ref but you could add one if you think it does (just to be safe).

Pretty much done except for a couple of points to be resolved (above). Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 03:36, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done this section Cinderella157 (talk) 08:45, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support @AustralianRupert and @User:Hawkeye7, I think this is good to close now. I have enjoyed working with you. I see no reason why a reviewer should, looking at this review, have no difficulty in promoting this article to FA. Having said that though, I would recuse myself from conducting such a review (partly because of a degree of involvement). Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 08:32, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lingzhi

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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