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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Ian Fleming

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:07, 14 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Fleming edit

Nominator(s): SchroCat (^ • @) and Cassianto (talk)


We are nominating this article for A-Class review because Fleming played an important part in British Naval Intelligence Division during the Second World War. We would appreciate any criticism that will improve this article further. The aim for this article is for FA status. SchroCat (^ • @) 18:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi Grandiose, Many thanks for your pointers. I've updated the rationale of the images to include the freedom of panorama provision, so that should be sorted. In terms of the links, I've sorted the ones you've outlined with the exception of #21. Are you talking about the DNB of Ann Charteris? My link works, although it is a subscription site, so if you don't have a subscription then you'll go to the index page for her. All the other points relating to the footnotes etc are now completed and, just in case there is a future issue with find-a-grave, I've amended that one too. Thanks again for taking the time on this. - SchroCat (^ • @) 22:28, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I meant the way that #21 is presented, not the link itself. It's the square brackets in the title. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 09:02, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, OK. That's the way the title is displayed by the DNB. I'm not sure which should be used: the original formatting from the DNB or something that would seem to be more fitting with Wiki style guidelines. Any thoughts which is preferred? Cheers - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't think you can see the problem I see. If you look at the way ref #21 is displayed, you can see that the link ends at the first square bracket, which is actually mid-way into the title. " (1913–1981)" is part of the title, but doesn't display as such. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 10:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now sorted - SchroCat (^ • @) 10:35, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know much about Fleming, and I've only seen a handful of Bond movies, so I'll focus my comments on the section covering his military service

  • "Godfrey published a memorandum" - memorandums are 'circulated' and the like, but not 'published'.
  • "In 1940, Fleming and Godfrey contacted Kenneth Mason" - what's meant by 'contacted'?
  • Exactly that—"contacted" or "made contact with". Contacted the word used in the source. - SchroCat (^ • @) 11:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1941 Fleming liaised with Donovan over American involvement in a measure intended to ensure that the Germans did not dominate the seaways" - what did this involve?
  • "a unit of commandos, known as No. 30 Commando or 30 Assault Unit (30AU), a group of specialist intelligence troops" - 'a unit of' and 'a group of' is repetitive
  • "after they located the German naval archives from 1870 that were archived" - as above
  • "The unit's most notable coup" - was it really a 'coup'? By this very late stage of the war the 21st Army Group was facing almost no opposition, and this facility would have been located within the British occupation zone. Nick-D (talk) 10:39, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Nick-D, Thanks very much for your comments: I've dealt with them all except one, where I'm not quite sure what else to put in. Thanks again. - SchroCat (^ • @) 11:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: this type of article isn't really something I've got much experience in reviewing, sorry. I've focused mainly on minor presentation issues and I will have to leave content to someone with more knowledge of the topic. Anyway, these are my comments (I've also made a few minor tweaks to the article):

  • at least on my computer screen there is a lot of whitespace between the lead and the first section of the article. You might consider adding in some sort of table of contents limiter, such as {{TOC limit}} (which you can set at level 2 or level 3 depending upon your preference). This is not an A-class requirement, though, and you can choose to ignore this if you wish;
  • Agree with the possibility of reducing the ugly white pace. SchroCat any thoughts? -- CassiantoTalk 04:10, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree—a good idea and I've dropped it in there. - SchroCat (^ • @) 07:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • there is some inconsistency in your terminology, for instance in the lead you say "First World War" and "Second World War" and then in the Birth and family section you use "World War I" and "World War II". Either construction is fine, IMO, but I think you should be consistent in your style;
  • in the Post-war section, this might need to be tweaked: "he joined the Kemsley newspaper group, which at the time owned The Sunday Times as the paper's Foreign Manager, overseeing its worldwide network of correspondents." Perhaps try, "he became the Foreign Manager in the Kemsley newspaper group, which at the time owned The Sunday Times. In this role he oversaw the paper's worldwide network of correspondents."
  • in Notes f and j, should the titles be displayed in italics?
  • is there a place of publication for the Griswold work in the Bibliography. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 02:30, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now done.
Thanks very much indeed AR - your thoughts are very much appreciated. - SchroCat (^ • @) 07:29, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. Good luck with taking the article further. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:56, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, a good review. Thank you for your excellent comments! -- CassiantoTalk 18:24, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
G'day, I've taken another look and I have a question about this: "In 1961 he suffered a heart attack at the age of 56 and struggled to recuperate." If Fleming was born in 1908, wouldn't he have actually been 53 in 1961? I notice that an IP fixed this issue previously, but was reverted with this edit: [1] Could you please review this and rectify accordingly? Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:58, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Quite right - mea culpa for the knee-jerk reversion. It's now corrected. - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 09:32, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your thoughts and effort on this, and for your support: it is very much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:44, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)

  • "... "Boofy" Kidd, was named after one of Fleming's close friends—and a relative of his wife—Arthur Gore, 8th Earl of Arran.": I don't see "Boofy" or "Kidd" in that article.
  • "crime writer": Is that the name of the sales category? - Dank (push to talk) 02:41, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "between 1953–1960": between 1953 and 1960
  • "those written in 1961–1966": released maybe; not written by him (he died in 1964)
  • "have more detail and imagery incorporated in them": incorporate more detail and imagery
  • "the villains Fleming portrayed": the villains Fleming created - Dank (push to talk) 02:56, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks Dank - I've addressed all your concerns, apart from "crime writer". The source uses the phrase "thriller writer", but I don't think that they (or we) are using it in terms of a sales category, more a generic label. - SchroCat (^ • @) 07:50, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • So far so good on prose per standard disclaimer, down to where I stopped, about three-quarters of the way, at Ian Fleming#Major themes. These are my edits. (Edits may take several days to show up on that page.) The prose got worse around the point where I stopped, and would benefit from some additional work. - Dank (push to talk) 14:10, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks again Dank. I've done a little more ce on this section, although the last couple of paragraphs still need a little more work. I'll give it a few hours to let my mind clear a little and have another look over. Thanks again - SchroCat (^ • @) 10:12, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Continuing.
  • "St George and the dragon. And St. George": did it really appear with and without the full stop in the book?
  • No, it didn't - and it doesn't here any more either! - SchroCat (^ • @) 14:03, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Huge thanks Dank for all your help here and previously with this article: it is very mcuh appreciated indeed. Cheers - SchroCat (^ • @) 14:03, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm happy to see your enthusiasm; I think a series of Featured Articles on Bond would be a welcome addition to Milhist's output. One more thing ... the Cambridge Five show up in two different subsections. It would be better either for them to show up in just one, or to cover almost everything you want to say in the first subsection and make a passing reference to them in the second, just enough to help you make the point you want to make. - Dank (push to talk) 15:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wonderful news! Great work Dank! Thank you so much! -- CassiantoTalk 15:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Glad to have you on board, Cassianto. - Dank (push to talk) 16:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • Thanks Dank. I've now tweaked the relevant sections as you suggest. Cheers - SchroCat (^ • @) 19:23, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments -- Schro and I have a long-standing arrangement: he puts Fleming/Bond-related articles up for review, I review them -- it's very simple... ;-)

  • Lead:
    • ...his father was the Member of Parliament for Henley from 1910 until his death on the Western Front during World War I in 1917. -- bit too much, suggest losing with "during World War I" or "in 1917"; also Western Front should be pipelinked to Western Front (World War I).
    • ...Eton, the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and the universities of... -- also suggest trimming this to ...Eton, Sandhurst, and the universities of...
    • , the former of which was successfully carried out -- I'd lose this clause, again too much detail for the lead.
    • He was also involved in the planning and oversight of two active service units -- "active service" sounds an odd qualifier here, suggest another common denominator e.g. "intelligence".
  • Birth and family:
    • Ian Fleming was born in 1908 -- I'd expect to see the full date here, and of course that one or both of the citations for this sentence support that.
  • 30 Assault Unit:
    • Not sure of the chronology here: we say "Fleming visited 30AU in the field during and after Operation Overlord", then later "Fleming was replaced as head of 30AU on 6 June 1944"; since 6 June 1944 was D-Day, would he really have been visiting 30AU after Overlord? If that's correct, I think you need to work in his replacement as the unit's chief earlier in the paragraph.

Completed my copyedit and comments up to Writing, will try to do more before I depart for the US on the weekend. At this stage I'm certainly leaning to support... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:22, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers Ian—I knew you couldn't resist having a look over this one too! I've tweaked along the lines you've suggested and clarified the position around 30AU and Overlord (I hope!) Cheers - SchroCat (^ • @) 18:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Happy with the actions re. my comments above. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:22, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, back again, starting from the Writing section...

  • Black and Linder classify The Man with the Golden Gun and Octopussy and The Living Daylights, along with The Spy Who Loved Me, as "the later Fleming stories". -- not sure how much sense this sentence makes to the uninitiated without noting that the "Smersh" novels run from Casino Royale to Goldfinger and the "Blofeld/Spectre" novels from Thunderball to You Only Live Twice; further, not sure that lumping The Man with the Golden Gun, Octopussy and The Spy Who Loved Me together as "later stories" is a particularly enlightening observation by those commentators anyway -- has anyone come up with something more imaginative?
    • Sadly not. These two are the big academics who have looked at the series of novels in a coherent and structured way and both have identified the obvious two parts and then not really known what to do with the remainder—much like Fleming did, I suspect! I've tweaked the paragraph to include the titles of works in the other two sections, just so there is some clarity about which works fall into which category (let me know if you want it tweaked or re-worked further and I'll see what I can do) - SchroCat (^ • @) 19:02, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's fine, you've done an excellent job of clarifying things there now. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:22, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "traitor within": Does Black (or anyone else) also mention From Russia With Love? Recall Bond and May discussing the Electricians Union ("the Communist one") and Bond wondering if "They" were keeping tabs on him...
    • Nice reference! Sadly you've out-Bonded the academics and writers as no-one else has seemed to pick up on this (I've gone through my library here, as well as an academic search and look through Google Books). - SchroCat (^ • @) 19:40, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Have to write my own book, I s'pose... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:22, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good vs. evil:
    • Don't think you need which is stated explicitly in the book as part of Bond's thoughts.
    • Jeremy Black notes that the image of the "latter-day St. George [is] again an English, rather than British image. -- the "again" implies that earlier in the article we've discussed Bond's "Englishness" vs. "Britishness", but I don't believe we have....
  • Anglo-American relations: Personally I've always felt that Fleming treats Leiter with a bit more respect than is implied here -- do none of the sources bring that out?
    • He sort of does, but Leiter is always coming off second best to Bond (and that's before he was half eaten by a shark!) With the addition of the Comradeship section this should provide a bit more balance about the Bond-Leiter relationship. - SchroCat (^ • @) 20:13, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Heh, you've divined my ulterior motive for requesting the Comradeship addition -- it does indeed counterbalance the somewhat negative impression of Leiter evident in the Anglo-American Relations section. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:22, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Something else that might be discussed under Major Themes is comradeship, which I think at least Benson has identified as a strong current running through the stories, for instance Bond's close friendships with Leiter, Kerim and Quarrel, to name three.
    • I've now added in a sub-section covering this. - SchroCat (^ • @) 20:07, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Tks mate -- it occurs to me that some may feel we're going too much into Bond themes for a dedicated bio of Fleming but, given that Bond's thoughts, hobbies, prejudices and world view are so very much Fleming's own, I think it's justified. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:22, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aside from prose/content points above, satisfied with article structure, referencing, supporting materials, and level of detail. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:50, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks again Ian: your comments are invaluable as always. If there is anything you want me to re-tweak or cover in more (or less) detail, please let me know. Cheers - SchroCat (^ • @) 20:14, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • A pleasure, happy to support with those changes -- well done, guys! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:22, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Many thanks ‎Hawkeye7, and to everyone who has taken the time and effort to go through this: it is all very much appreciated! Cheers - SchroCat (^ • @) 17:49, 14 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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