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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Casimir Pulaski

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:41, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Casimir Pulaski edit

Nominator(s): Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here


As the review on Kościuszko is wrapping up, here's the other article I'd appreciate your input before a future FA. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:18, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: I'll be happy to review. I'll get some comments together in the next few days. Cdtew (talk) 03:21, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I did some cleanup of the lead; let me know if you object to any of my changes -- which were mostly for clarity.
  • As an initial note, I see in certain places you've used the "ł" character for his name (as in "Pułaski"), which I understand has a different sound from the "l" character in both Polish and English. Given that it appears he may have used the "l" character in signing his name (see [1] for example), my suggestion would be to use the spelling "Pulaski" consistently throughout the article, and use the spelling "Pułaski" only in the first, bold "birth name" instance (unless it's part of a wikilink to another article that uses "ł").
  • I've fixed a single caption; I think in all other instances the article adherers to your comments (with regards to the subject of the article; when mentioning his relatives or family, the correct Polish ł variant is used, as their names have not been Anglicized - the case of Casimiar is a very rare exception where we use the "translated" name, rather than his original). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead says "of Ślepowron coat of arms" - is that supposed to be just "of Ślepowron"? If so, pipe the "coat of arms" portion away.
  • I still think this "sounds funny" as we might say (in other words, seems odd), but it may be something that specifically applies to Polish nobility and heraldry, so I won't object. Cdtew (talk) 16:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove "(the date and place have been erroneously reported in some older sources)" - your endnote says the same thing with more information.
  • "a well-known lawyer – the Advocatus at Crown Tribunal and the Starosta of Warka and one of the town most notable inhabitants" - Since these appear to be three different things, just make this in list form, like "a well-known lawyer, the (an?) Advocatus at Crown Tribunal, the Starosta of Warka, and one of the town's most notable inhabitants" - note also the copy editing in that sentence.
  • As an additional note, was "Advocatus" a title in Poland, or do you just mean he was able to appear as a lawyer before the Crown Tribunal? If it's the latter, change it to "advocatus", and you might even be able to take out the word "lawyer" in the preceding phrase.
  • "His family coat of arms was Ślepowron." - This is an odd structure in English. When we discuss coats of arms, we usually say "he bore the coat of arms of the X family." or something of the sort. How about trying "His family bore the coat of arms of the Ślepowron family (clan?)"?
  • "attended the elite college of Theatines" - "attended an elite college run by the Theatines," -- but can you put the name in there? Like this: attended X College, an elite institution run by the Theatines,"
  • "was a member of the Masonic Order." - this sounds a little misleading. How about "was a Freemason"? Especially since Poland's masonic institution would have been separate from the one in England or North America. Full disclosure: I'm a freemason (although not an active one).
  • "When the corner stone was laid in 1824, by Lafayette, in a monument erected in his honor in Savannah," - try "When Lafayette laid the cornerstone of the monument erected in Pulaski's honor in Savannah in 1824,"
  • "Other sources claim he was a member" -- "Other sources claim Pulaski was a member" for clarity's sake
  • "while another Masonic Lodge in Chicago is named Casimir Pulaski Lodge, No.1167." - since certainly no one's claiming he was a member of a lodge in Chicago, which was founded some 50 years after his death, make this it's own sentence.
  • Perhaps the masonic paragraph should be moved to it's own subsection at the end, perhaps titled ==Masonic connections==
  • It doesn't bother me where it is, but if you go up to FAC that section might be moved to a different heading. I've had short subsections before, and haven't gotten much opposition on that. Cdtew (talk) 16:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "starost of Zezulińce" - since you're referring to the title as a proper noun, I think you can capitalize "Starost" in much the same way we would say "he took assumed the title of 'King of England'"
  • "take up arms with Confederates" - "with the Confederates"
  • "However, after a brave defense," seems to violate NPOV - perhaps "after a staunch defense,"?
  • "he received the position of the regimentarz (of the Kraków Voivodeship)" - perhaps "he was made regimentarz of the Kraków Voivodeship"
  • "He gained the reputation of the "best military leader of the Bar Confederation."" - this needs to be directly cited, as it is likely to raise questions such as "Who said that?" and "what are they basing that opinion on?" Perhaps rephrase it to "he gained a reputation as the most effective military leader in the Bar Confederation"?
  • "American War of Independence" - I'm making it my personal mission to standardize the name on Wikipedia to American Revolutionary War. I think that's a preferable name, and it's the one the main article on the conflict uses, so feel free to join my crusade.
  • Franklin's first quote doesn't need to be italicized per WP:QUOTE
  • "American cavalry" - should be Continental Army cavalry, as there were "American" cavalry regiments fighting for the British as well.
  • I have put this on my to-do list for today, so hopefully I can do so within a short time. It won't hold up this review, though. I may do a general "Cavalry in the American Revolutionary War" article, and link to that. Cdtew (talk) 16:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Because Washington was unable to grant him an officer rank" - you may want to explain that only Congress could give general officer ranks, and only states could give lower officer ranks -- if that's in your sources. If not, I may have one.
  • This is also on my list. I'll try to get to it soon. Won't hold this review up. Cdtew (talk) 16:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " saved the life of Washington" - I mean, Pulaski didn't stop a bullet from hitting Washington, so this is a bit of hyperbole. How about "saved Washington from being captured or perhaps even injured or killed by British soldiers"
  • Hmmm, even that is a speculation, I just removed this claim. Sources are clear "His subsequent charge averted a disastrous defeat of the Continental Army cavalry", this should be enough. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "moving toward the Continental position" - Where was the Continental position?
  • "from a foreigner who could scarcely speak English" - do your sources ever discuss the exact nature of his English proficiency? I've seen some of his letters from near his death, and he seemed to have proficient English skills.
  • Hmmm. PSB on p.392 briefly mentions "lack of [English] language comprehension" in reference to the Polish soldiers under his command; there's nothing about his language. This sentence seems to be primarily based on the 1900s source ([2]). AnnMarie Francis Kajencki (2005). Count Casimir Pulaski: From Poland to America, a Hero's Fight for Liberty. The Rosen Publishing Group. pp. 36–. ISBN 978-1-4042-2646-3. Retrieved 15 July 2013. suggests he did not know (or new little) English by 1777; this is elaborated in our context on AnnMarie Francis Kajencki (2005). Count Casimir Pulaski: From Poland to America, a Hero's Fight for Liberty. The Rosen Publishing Group. pp. 47–. ISBN 978-1-4042-2646-3. Retrieved 15 July 2013.. I've added those cites to the section. I hope this is sufficient. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm fine with this. For all I know he may have dictated his letters. Cdtew (talk) 16:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Henry Wadsworth Longfellow commemorated in verse the consecration of the Legion's banner" - Since Longfellow wasn't born until 1807, perhaps this should go in the "Legacy" section, and include the date of Longfellow's poem.
  • I am unable to find the date or the name of his poem; for now I've added "would later" to the sentence. Perhaps the sentence would be better of moved to the Legion's article alltogether? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "(despite ongoing negotiations of a possible surrender of the city)" - needs to be clear that you're referring to Charleston, and not Savannah.
  • "(One early historian criticized Pulaski's action as "ill-judged, ill-conducted, disgraceful and disastrous")." - this is out of place - is it referring to the charge on Prevost's forces? If so, take it out of parentheses, and move it up to just after the discussion of the charge and the massive casualties the Legion suffered.
  • I have made a suggestion. Let me know if you think it works, if not, feel free to revert. Cdtew (talk) 16:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Pulaski frequently suffered from malaria while stationed in Charleston" - I don't think one suffers with malaria "frequently", so perhaps just "suffered from malaria"?
  • "Before the enemy was aware of his presence, Pulaski captured a British outpost" - a reader who doesn't know about this campaign will ask "where was his presence? and where was the outpost he captured?"
  • "His heroic death further boosted his reputation in America" - NPOV; perhaps "His death was perceived by Patriot supporters as heroic, and further boosted his reputation in America"
  • "See also: Casimir Pulaski Monument in Savannah" - This needs to either be in the see also section, or you can do the following: "General Lafayette personally laid the cornerstone for the [[Casimir Pulaski Monument in Savannah|Casimir Pulaski Monument]] in Savannah, Georgia.
  • "Monterey Square" - should be wikilinked as [[Squares of Savannah, Georgia|Monterey Square]]
  • "Pulaski is one of the most honored persons in American history, in terms of places and events named in his honor." This is likely to be challenged, and needs a citation directly to a source for this statement. For instance, Lafayette and Washington (and almost every one of the first five presidents) are far more honored, and so this is a somewhat bold claim.
  • "The first monument to him was however built over half a century later (the Casimir Pulaski Monument in Savannah was finally completed in 1854)" should be "The first monument to him was however built over half a century later in 1854"
  • "obtained a cancellation of his brother's sentence" - sentence for what?
  • "There is also a number of institutions named after him" such as?
  • "as was a 19th-century Revenue Marine (Coast Guard) cutter" should be "as was a 19th century [[United States Revenue Cutter Service]] [[Cutter (boat)|Cutter]]"
  • In the See Also section, you should add other foreign nationals who fought in the American service - Baron von Steuben, Johann de Kalb, and Lafayette (who was a general in the Continental service). You might even throw in Charles Lee, who was an Englishman and who also served in Poland under King Stanislaus II before moving to America.
  • Done, let me know what you think. Cdtew (talk) 16:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review -
  • "File:Kazimierz Pułaski pod Częstochową.PNG" needs a valid US PD tag
  • "File:Kazimierz Pułaski at Częstochowa's walls.PNG" needs a valid PD-Art tag
  • "File:Kazimierz Pułaski.PNG" needs a valid US PD tag
  • Some alt text for each of your photos would be nice, although this is not a requirement for FAC or ACR; if your caption is descriptive enough, then just add "alt=See caption" as the alt text for the image.
  • Final Note: Your hatnote reads "For things named to honor Casimir Pulaski, see Pulaski (disambiguation).", but that disambiguation page doesn't only discuss things that honor him. It also discusses wholly unrelated topics like Ed Pulaski and Star Trek's Katherine Pulaski. Perhaps use a different hatnote that says "For things named to honor Casimir Pulaski, see [[Commemoration of Casimir Pulaski]]. For other uses, see [[Pulaski (disambiguation)]] Perhaps this would work - {{Two other uses|Polish military leader Casimir Pulaski|places and things named after him|Commemoration of Casimir Pulaski|other uses|Pulaski (disambiguation)}}, which should show as "This page is about Polish military leader Casimir Pulaski. For places and things named after him, see Commemoration of Casimir Pulaski. For other uses, see Pulaski (disambiguation)."


Overall, this is a very good article, and I am continually impressed by your English drafting abilities. The only other suggestion I might make is to break the Bar Confederation section into two or more subsections just to improve readability. With a little polish and some clarifications, I would be happy to support this article for A-Class. Cdtew (talk) 15:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm traveling out of town at the moment in remote areas with limited Internet access, should be able to address above in a few days. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:06, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No problem! I will actually be out of town with limited Internet access between July 12 and July 19, so I may delayed in getting back to you until the 20th. Cdtew (talk) 17:40, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(@Cdtew): ok, I am done fixing/replying, please let me know what remains. Thanks for your extensive review. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:12, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am happy to add my support. Good work! Cdtew (talk) 16:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: I made a few minor tweaks, but looked mainly at the image licencing:

  • CommentsSupport
    • No dab links [8] (no action req'd).
    • External links all check out [9] (no action req'd).
    • Images lack Alt Text so you might consider adding it [10] (not an ACR requirement - suggestion only).
    • The Citation Check Tool reveals one minor issue with reference consolidation:
      • Szymański301 (Multiple references are using the same name)
    • Images review completed above.
    • The Earwig Tool reveal no issues with copyright violation or close paraphrasing [11] (no action req'd).
    • A few duplicate links to be removed per WP:REPEATLINK:
      • Warsaw
      • Starost
      • Zamość
      • Warka
    • in the lead: "military commander who has been called "the father of American cavalry"." Or is it "the father of the American cavalry."? (which is how you present it further down in the article).
    • "...When Lafayette laid the cornerstone of the monument...", Lafayette's full name and title should be used at first instance per WP:SURNAME.
    • Possible missing word here: "...which he defended a siege by royalist forces for over two...", consider instead: "...which he defended during a siege by royalist forces for over two..."
    • Should use past tense here I feel: "... he declared he would from now on loyally follow orders from the Confederacy that up till now he habitually disregarded....", consider instead: "... he declared he would from then on loyally follow orders from the Confederacy that he had previously habitually disregarded...."
    • Repetitive wording: " In October his responsibilities in the War Council were increased. In October that year, he became involved with the plan to kidnap King Poniatowski...", consider: " In October his responsibilities in the War Council were increased, while the same month he became involved with the plan to kidnap King Poniatowski..." or something similar.
    • Repetitive wording: "Because Washington was unable to grant him an officer rank, Pulaski spent the next few months traveling between Washington and the US Congress in Philadelphia, waiting for the officer appointment...", consider instead: "Because Washington was unable to grant him an officer rank, Pulaski spent the next few months traveling between Washington and the US Congress in Philadelphia, waiting for his appointment."
    • "...At the beginning of September General Lincoln...", should just be "...At the beginning of September Lincoln...", removing rank following formal introduction at first use per WP:SURNAME
    • Typo here: "The grape shot is still on display today...", should be "grapeshot".
    • "In March 1825, during his grand tour of the United States, General Lafayette...", should just be "Lafayette" as above.
    • Some of the works in the "further reading" section lack a place of publishing. Can this be added? Anotherclown (talk) 02:10, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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