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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Bombing of Obersalzberg

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 22:20, 13 December 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Bombing of Obersalzberg edit

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Nominator(s): Nick-D (talk)

Bombing of Obersalzberg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Histories of RAF Bomber Command during World War II often briefly note that its final missions included an attack on Hitler's personal residence at Obersalzberg in the Alps. I've long been intrigued by this, but struggled to find much about the topic. This article is my attempt to give this unusual operation the attention it deserves. It covers a largely successful precision attack made by 359 heavy bombers against a difficult target. While Hitler's residence got off lightly, most of the other buildings in the area were flattened. German casualties were remarkably light as the 3000 people present were able to shelter in the sophisticated bunkers built for the use of the Nazi elite. The attack was celebrated at the time, but was considered somewhat embarrassing after the war and was often passed-over as a result.

This article passed a GA nomination in October. It has since been expanded, and I'm hopeful that the A-class criteria are met. I think that the article might also have FA potential, and would welcome any suggestions for how it could be further improved. Thank you in advance for your comments. Nick-D (talk) 03:42, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass edit

  • All information is cited to reliable sources. No source checks done because the nominator has a history of successful A-class submissions. buidhe 04:41, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Goering_House,_October_14,_1948_(5491626123).jpg: as per the Flickr tag, is a more specific copyright tag available? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Nikkimaria: Sorry for the slow response here. I don't think a different tag is available for this image - presumably it was taken by Arthur Voth while in Germany on business related to the Mennonite Church (presumably linked to the US Army in some way given that it was administering Obersalzberg at the time). I could replace this with another photo if you don't think this is up to scratch. Nick-D (talk) 09:17, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Is the theory that Voth was working as an agent of the Mennonite Church at the time the photo was taken? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:00, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes, given that the Flickr account is apparently their archives. Nick-D (talk) 02:02, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5 edit

  • The bombing of Obersalzberg was an air raid carried --> "The Bombing of Obersalzberg was an air raid carried" Isn't there a German name of this incident?
    • A distinct German name isn't noted in any of the sources. Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you also capitalise the word bombing here?
  • The sources don't emphasise the name of the attack that way I'm afraid. There isn't a clear-cut common name for this event, and I used 'Bombing of Obersalzberg' as a generic name. Nick-D (talk) 10:55, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • other key members of Germany's leadership Pipe Germany to Nazi Germany.
    • That's confusing - in lineage terms modern Germany is the same country as Nazi-era Germany. The Nazis were a government of Germany. Various modern official museums and memorials in Germany are very firm on this. The background section explains the situation here. Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Allies.
  • Link WWII.
  • prepared flight routes to attack it from Italy Pipe Italy to the Kingdom of Italy.
    • As above, this is the same country as modern Italy. Tweaked though to clarify that they would have operated from bases in Allied controlled areas of Italy. Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link German Navy.
  • German government vs German Government
  • The former Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring was the only highly-ranked Explain what a Reichmarschall is?
    • I'd rather not given that the term is linked and Göring wasn't one at the time of this operation (the honorific also no longer reflected his true status in the government, which had deteriorated over the war). The text notes that he was a highly-ranked member of the Government, albeit in disgrace.
  • Link US Army.
  • which was rapidly advancing towards Munich from whence it would attack Whence? Isn't that archaic?
    • It's unusual, but not sure it's archaic Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah some dictionaries do specify as archaic others don't but that's fine I guess.
  • bombers arrived in the Berchtesgaden area at 9:30 am --> "bombers arrived in the Berchtesgaden area at 09:30" Because it's a military topic here. Same with the following hours.
    • I prefer to use the more widely understood 12 hour time, and this has been uncontroversial in various military FAs I've developed. As all the action in this article takes place in the morning, there isn't a need to use 24 hour time on those grounds. Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Over 1,400 tons of bombs were released What kind of tons?
    • The source doesn't specify, but as it's referring to British aircraft of World War II it's safe to assume it's talking about Long tons, and I've linked accordingly. Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • were unable to generate a smoke screen as they --> "were unable to generate a smokescreen as they"
    • I think that smoke screen is the more common usage Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • and none of its population were killed or wounded --> "and none of its population was killed or wounded"
  • All cite page numbers should have an en dash.

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks a lot for your comments Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have replied to a couple of your replies. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 12:04, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks good, support. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 12:09, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild edit

I have done a little copy editing, which you will want to check.

  • IMO the infobox or Background section would greatly benefit from a map showing the location of Obersalzberg.
  • I suggest that "smoke generator" be linked to Smoke screen#Smoke generators.
    • That's linked later in the sentence. This seems to be the best linking possible given the lack of an actual article on smoke generators. Nick-D (talk) 10:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment it goes to a disambig page. I am not sure if the MoS permits that, and if it does, is a reader supposed to guess which one of the five meanings you intend?
I've removed the link and tweaked the wording so the link to smoke screen clearly explains the concept here. Nick-D (talk) 02:01, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "All of its buildings were professionally camouflaged" Does "professionally" add anything?
  • "would suffer heavy casualties given that the area was believed to be heavily defended" "heavy ... heavily". Optional: "heavily" → strongly?
  • "senior members of the German Government and Waffen-SS units" Do you mean senior members of Waffen-SS units, or the units themselves? If the latter, it is not clear.
  • "would assemble at Berchtesgaden" Do you mean Obersalzberg? (Just checking.)
    • The source notes that the concern was over Berchtesgaden acting as the centre of resistance. Nick-D (talk) 10:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The bomber crews were woken during the early hours of 25 April" I know what you mean, I think, but this phrasing gives the impression of a rushed operation, hurriedly thrown together.
    • That's what the source says. It was quite routine for Bomber Command crews to be woken up at unexpected hours and sent out on a mission (the planing of raids was, for security purposes, handled centrally and the crews were deliberately kept in the dark about their operations until shortly before the attack). The source doesn't note anything usual about this. Nick-D (talk) 10:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I understand that Nick, but it reads to me as if it were non-routine. How about either 'The bomber crews were briefed on the mission during the early hours of 25 April', or 'As was routine, the bomber crews woke during the early hours of 25 April to be briefed on the mission' or similar?
The sources don't really support that - the source consulted here notes that the bomber crews were woken unexpectedly early, much to their displeasure! I've added some material to an earlier section on Bomber Command's day operations during the last stage of the war to provide context to this, and tweaked the wording here. Does this look OK? Nick-D (talk) 09:03, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That looks fine. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:56, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "13 British fighter squadrons" Is it known how many aircraft this represents, even approximately? Or what aircraft they were? (Did they fly from England? If so, did they escort all the way?)
    • Afraid not - all the source says is "Aircraft from 13 squadrons of RAF Fighter Command and 98 Mustangs of the US Eighth Air Force flew as escort". I'd be guessing that the fighters were Spitfires operating both from the UK and the British sector of the liberated areas of Europe. Nick-D (talk) 10:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The whole escort thing doesn't really hang together, but if the sources don't cover it, not a lot you can do.
  • "USAAF units attacked transport infrastructure in the Berchtesgaden area on 25 April" Was this later on the 25th? If so, it would be helpful to say so.
    • The source doesn't say, and unfortunately its sources are obscure hard copy German works! I'd like to cover these attacks in greater detail ahead of FAC. I've made a tweak to increase the detail here. Nick-D (talk) 10:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've just been able to add more material on the USAAF raids. Nick-D (talk) 04:32, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A fine and fascinating article. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:31, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks a lot for your comments. Nick-D (talk) 10:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of responses to your responses above. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:24, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: I think that I might have now addressed your comments here. Nick-D (talk) 09:51, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's great. My nit picking all addressed. Happy to support. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:29, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Pendright edit

Thanks for this article - back soon! Pendright (talk) 00:47, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lede:

  • The bombing of Obersalzberg was an air raid carried out by RAF Bomber Command on 25 April 1945 during the last days of World War II in Europe. ... Two Allied bombers were shot down with the loss of four airmen, and 31 Germans were killed.
The first sentence of the first paragraph indicates that the RAF did the bombing - but a later sentence in the paragraph indicates that the AAllied bombers suffered the losses. What am I missing?
RAF Bomber Command was a multinational force which formed part of the RAF. One of the aircraft which was shot down was from an Australian squadron (whose aircraft were British-owned, but most of its personnel were Australian by this stage of the war). Nick-D (talk) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Background:

  • He and British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain met at the Berghof on 15 September 1938 as part of the negotiations which led to the Munich Agreement. Nazi propag
That, not which, is used when the information is essential to the meaning of the sentence.
Done Nick-D (talk) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • He spent more than third of 1944 there, ...
Consider adding a before third
Done Nick-D (talk) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The RAF developed a plan to attack Obersalzberg which was designated "Hellbound".
Replace which with that
Done Nick-D (talk) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) reconnaissance aircraft photographed the area between 16 and 20 June and the American Fifteenth Air Force prepared flight routes to attack it from bases in Allied-controlled areas of Italy.
  • Add the before United States
  • I don't think that's grammatically correct, as only some of the USAAF's recon aircraft were used not all of them. Nick-D (talk) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Place a comma after June to join the independent clauses
  • These aircraft struck the area after being unable a complete a mission ...
The a is probably meant to be to?
oops, fixed Nick-D (talk) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In line with this order, the Royal Air Force's Bomber Command attacked German cities which lay in the path of the Allied armies and made precision bombing raids against other targets until 25 April.
Change which to that
Done Nick-D (talk) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Planning:

  • As the war in Europe neared its end in 1945, the Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force (SHAEF) became concerned over intelligence reports which indicated that senior members of the German Government as well as Waffen-SS units would assemble at Berchtesgaden to prolong the fighting from an "Alpine Fortress".
Replace which with that and replace that with the
Tweaked Nick-D (talk) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath:

  • XV Corps captured the area on 4 May.
Add the before XV Corps
Done Nick-D (talk) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • American and French soldiers looted the ruins of the Berghof.
This is a harsh statement - it strikes me as needing more explanation here or a footnote?
That's what the source says. Modern works tend to use pretty frank language about things like this - older sources would have referred to the Allied troops innocently taking souvenirs or similar. Nick-D (talk) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Finished - Pendright (talk) 02:15, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Pendright: Thanks a lot for this review. I think that I've addressed all your comments. Nick-D (talk) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nick-D: All comments addressed - supporting. Pendright (talk) 20:18, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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