Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Battle of Trapani

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article promoted by Peacemaker67 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 09:20, 15 December 2020 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list

Battle of Trapani

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Nominator(s): Cplakidas (talk)

Battle of Trapani (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Featured article candidates/Battle of Trapani/archive1

The pendant to the recently promoted Battle of Saseno, Trapani was a clear example of Venetian naval superiority over the Genoese during the mid-13th century. The article passed GA in October 2018, but has been expanded with more material recently, and I feel it is now ready for A-class. Any comments for further improvement are, of course, welcome. Constantine ✍ 15:30, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Image review—pass

All images are freely licensed (t · c) buidhe 04:35, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Source review—pass

Sources meet minimum standards for reliability. No source checks done (t · c) buidhe 19:33, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support from Hog Farm

I'll take a look at this one later. Hog Farm _Bacon 16:06, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

• To me, the lead seems a little short. Any way this could be beefed up a little bit?
  • Done

Background

• Link Rapprochement
  • Done
• I'd also say link Constantinople
  • Done
• "At sea, 1265 saw no major combat at sea," - Nix the first "At sea"
  • Done

Battle

• "Finally, in early June Borbonino led his fleet out of Bonifacio to confront the Venetians" - Comma after June?
  • Done
• In the infobox when you say that 27 galleys were captured, since technically it appears that 3 of them were burned immediately after capture, wouldn't "24 galleys captured, 3 galleys destroyed" be a bit more exact?
  • Done

Aftermath

• "Borbonino and his officers were able to escape, but on their return to Genoa they were tried and, except for five" - Five out of how many total?
  • The primary source just says, "except for five". I've added some details and tried to clarify what is meant by 'officers', so the total was probably 31 (Borbonino+3 councillors+27 galley captains)
• Be consistent with da Canal versus Da Canal
  • Done
• Link Doge
  • Done

• Venetian strength in the infobox includes two saette, but there is no mention of these ships in the prose
  • Added. There was some confusion since some sources lump the saette with the other galleys.

That's it for the first pass. Hog Farm _Bacon 17:32, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi Hog Farm, thanks for taking the time. I think I've addressed the points you've raised so far. Constantine ✍ 12:00, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild

I looked at this at GAN, so I don't expect to find much.

• "resort to commerce raiding instead, and avoid fleet battles." Delete "instead". At that point you haven't mentioned anything for it to be instead of.
  • Done.
• "as they captured the entire Genoese fleet almost intact." "almost intact" contradicts "entire".
  • Rewritten.
• Optional: mention in the lead the year the war started.
  • Added the date range.
• Give the year of the start of the war in the first section of "Background".
  • Done.
• "an experienced sailor who was said to" Said by whom?
  • Not mentioned explicitly; I guess da Canal, but I don't have access to him.
• "four from Crete, three from Zara, and three galleys and a galleot from Negroponte—while only four galleys were to be equipped in Venice itself" That makes 14 galleys, which doesn't agree with either of the numbers you give earlier in hte paragraph.
  • A galleot is also a galley and counted towards the total, I've clarified this now.
• "given the actual correlation of forces". Is "correlation" a typo for composition (or compilation or something?)
  • No. "Correlation of forces" is an expression about the comparative strengths of each side. After googling it, it is apparently used in English for a specifically Soviet doctrine (no idea how I came to use it here), so I've changed it.
• "dispatched to join with Dondulo". Is "with" necessary?
  • Removed.
• "with his three councillors". You write as if they have been mentioned before. They haven't, so perhaps an introduction?
  • Done.
• "However, soon Borbonino decided otherwise." Perhaps 'However, shortly afterwards Borbonino decided otherwise.'?
  • Done.
• "as well as some of the crews who remained behind. 24 of them were towed away". Er ...
  • Indeed.
• Is any approximation of the total number of men on either side known?
  • Not really. We could probably get an idea by multiplying ships with the number of men 'typically' used to crew them, but that is guesswork. In the sources available, I haven't found anything yet.
• "Genoa was still more than capable of quickly replenishing its losses". Suggest deleting "more than".
  • Done.

Gog the Mild (talk) 15:44, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• Constantine - nudge. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:12, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Gog the Mild, will do this during the weekend. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 18:18, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Hi Gog the Mild, done. Constantine ✍ 16:19, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Support Comments by Sturmvogel_66

• commerce raiding, and avoid delete the comma
  • Done.
• overlink for Trapani in the lede and with galleys in the main body
  • Fixed.
• composed in large part of hired foreigners perhaps "mostly manned by hired foreigners"?
  • Done.
• link Syria
  • Changed to Levant.
• Nicely done, but it's nap time. I'll do another read through to see if anything else comes to mind.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:33, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
• The aftermath section needs to be severely compressed and mostly limited to the immediate aftermath of the battle, not the entire rest of the war.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:29, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Hmmm, to my eyes, the only possibly redundant part is the section about the events of autumn 1266 and spring 1267 (from "Marco Zeno's cautious leadership" on). But I would consider the events of the autumn at least to be 'the immediate aftermath' of the battle, especially as it illustrates how quickly the result of the battle was squandered by the Venetians, and this naturally leads to Dondulo's recall in the next year, where the semi-detailed narrative stops. And since Trapani was the final major battle of the war, I prefer to keep the part about how the war ended in.
  • Hi Sturmvogel 66, can you please have a look at my changes and my comments above? Cheers, Constantine ✍ 09:31, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
    • The aftermath is at least as long as the battle section, which seems disproportionate, but cutting the last two paragraphs would work for me.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:18, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
      • @Sturmvogel 66: I've trimmed the last paragraphs, please have a look. Constantine ✍ 20:03, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
        • Looks good.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Hey Constantine just a friendly reminder. Curently Sturm's comments are here unaddressed, could you please address them thank you. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:53, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.