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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Adrian Cole (RAAF officer)

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  • Closed as Promoted - Cam (Chat) 15:35, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Adrian Cole (RAAF officer) edit

Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk)
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Nominating this article on another interesting, as well as gallant, Australian Flying Corps vet and later senior officer in the RAAF - in the mold of Williams, Goble, Cobby, McNamara, and so on. Currently B-Class, have since expanded the WWII section and added other illustrations/snippets, and believe it meets the A-Class criteria... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments - (this version)
    • One disambig (a link to Doctor), needs to be fixed.
    • On my screen, the image is squishing the refs a bit. It's not a big deal, but it does create some ugly whitespace...
      • I notice Graham has moved the pic to the right - of course that spoils my careful left-right patterning but happy to leave unless I come up with another solution. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Can we have OCLC's for all of the books? Just type worldcat.org/######### into your browser, replacing the #'s with the ISBN. For books without an ISBN, go to worldcat.org and copy/paste the title into the search bar.
      • Heh, to be honest I'd rather just take it off the one it's on for consistency - I hardly ever see them so I'd debate the worth of going to the extra trouble to add them everywhere since I'd be setting a precedent for myself...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've added most of them, but I need help on one: [1]. Is your author right? —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 13:51, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Oh well, tks for going to the trouble, Ed! Yes, in the case you highlight the author I've given is correct for that article/chapter, the editor of the entire work is a different person (i.e. Ritchie - I probably need to add or alter some fields in cite book to allow for that). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • No problem! I believe that this is all complete now. —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 16:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • You shame me with your diligence...! Just had to hit the sack after that final edit last night - tks again Ed. cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • A location for the University of NSW for us Americans? ;)
      • Didn't know you yanks cared...  ;-) Done! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Otherwise, sources, refs and external links look perfect! —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 22:44, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Tks Ed - however I think we've discussed the small refs thing before and I still prefer the normal-sized text - footnotes are traditionally miniscule but I prefer to keep the refs larger to reduce squinting for those with less-than-perfect vision...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Your choice; feel free to revert. I just did it because there are a lot of books there. :) —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 13:51, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - great article, just a few points: Support

  • Is the date known when Cole transferred to the AFC? At the moment, it is a little vague.
    • My sources don't pin it down, unfortunately, otherwise I'd have been glad to add it...! However I didn't consider it too big a deal since we have the date he joined the AIF (Jan 1917) and the date he left for Egypt with 1SQN (Mar 1917) so it's a pretty narrow margin of uncertainty...
      • If no source addresses this, then that's fine. I just like dates. ;-) Abraham, B.S. (talk) 12:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • He joined the AIF on 29 January 1916 (the article is correct) but as a private, not a corporal (the article is wrong). He joined the AFC (and 1 Squadron) on that same date. He was promoted to 2nd Lieutenant on 15 June 1916, 1st Lieutenant on 17 March 1917 and Captain on 15 August 1917. Source: NAA(ACT): B2455 COLE A T Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Tks Hawkeye. Ugh, for two reasons: 1) I’ve been trying to do without personnel files, not so much because they’re primary sources as for the reliability of the links (they do seem to be 'timing out' after a while) that means we can’t provide friendly direct access to the pages in question as we do for other primary documents like award recommendations on AWM or citations in the Gazette; and 2) if the article is wrong on his rank at transfer to AFC then it means my current source for that, the AIF Project, is wrong. Anyway, reviewing the wording in his Oxford Companion to Australian Military History article as a source I can safely drop the bit about "transferring shortly afterwards" to the AFC, and for the moment at least just leave it as "resigned his commission" to join the AIF. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the "Middle East" section, it jumps from Cole's flight training to being awarded the Military Cross. Would it be possible to add when he completed his training and began flying operations to fill this gap?
    • Again, nothing so accommodating as those two milestone dates appear in my sources, however I'll try and 'ease' into his MC with a something on his operational flying beforehand.
  • Currently, more information on why he was awarded the MC and DFC is garnered from the award citations rather than the prose. Could each of the actions be expanded on in the prose?
    • Heh, blame my friend David - 'twas he who added the complete citations! As you know, my usual practice is to describe the action myself and just incorporate choice quotes from the citation, rather than quote the citation in full (except for VCs), so could do the same thing here if David has no objections. On the other hand, I see in this case I've neglected to review the recommendations so I can probably come up with something (especially since I've just found out that the other pilot in the MC action was none other than Roy "Peter" Drummond, who also popped up in connection with McNamara's VC)...!
      • There isn't really anything wrong with the citations, but I think it would be best if the awards were fully explained in the prose rather than to have to rely on the citations. If you can come up with something, then it will no doubt do. :) Abraham, B.S. (talk) 12:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could any of Cole's aerial victories be expanded upon?
    • Probably, will see.
      • Added an action where he got two in one mission. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Air Member for Supply occupied a seat on the Air Board, chaired by the Chief of the Air Staff and collectively responsible for control and administration of the RAAF" - I think a comma and the addition of "was" is needed here.
    • "The Air Member for Supply occupied a seat on the Air Board, which was chaired by the Chief of the Air Staff and collectively responsible for control and administration of the RAAF" - will that do the trick?
      • How about: "The Air Member for Supply occupied a seat on the Air Board, which was chaired by the Chief of the Air Staff, and was collectively responsible for control and administration of the RAAF"? Abraham, B.S. (talk) 12:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could Cole's service with Headquarters No. 11 Group and his award of the DSO be expanded upon? Both are a little vague at the moment.
    • No source I have says anything on his service with 11 Group except associating it with his Dieppe performance. Plus I think the description of the DSO award is given in straightforward and reasonable detail as is (neither the recommendation or the citation say anything much) - can you be more specific?
      • I think it was more the way the sentence is joined, having information on his efforts and then his wounding. In this mannor, Cole's actions, IMO, are slightly overshadowed by his wounds. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 12:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • See your point but I think I need to state what he was there for first, then discuss the wounding (which tends to be given a fair bit of space in each of the sources, so I think I'm just reflecting its prominence) and finish off with the award citation. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I agree with the general method of what you have done, but perhaps you could consider cutting the sentence in half? Have one sentence on what he was doing/why he was there, and the next on his wounding? Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:33, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • Heh, okay, see what you think now...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • I've slightly tweaked it, but feel free to change as necessary. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tks for the review, mate. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - Support
    • The first thing I notice is that the article contradicts Cutlack about his birthplace. He says in his personnel file that he was born in Malvern.
      • Well, Glen Iris and Malvern are right next to each other...! ADB, Who's Who, Gillison and Herington say Glen Iris, while Cutlack and his personnel file say Malvern. I understand the emphasis one might place on the personnel file since he presumably provided the info himself, but on the other hand we have weight of numbers for Glen Iris - and don't Who's Who entrants get to check/confirm their details? I can't just change to Malvern without confusing people who might check online sources like ADB. The most I could probably do is a footnote mentioning the 'Malvern' sources - WDYT? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • That'll do. We know that he lived at the corner of Toorak and Glenferrie, which is on the opposite side of Malvern to Glen Iris. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Cole was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the 55th Infantry on 1 August 1914. He was promoted to 1st Lieutenant on 1 July 1915.
      • Fair enough, this is additional detail that doesn't contradict anything in the article so I come back to my earlier point re. use of personnel files from NAA. Aside from the apparent volatility of the links and the related point that we don't have a citation method for going direct to the relevant page as with the Gazette, I think an encyclopedia should concentrate on what's available from secondary sources rather than mining every scrap from primary documents (I have used files for some articles but try to do so only when desperate)! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I find links to NAA volatile too... another editor made me include them.
    • There is no evidence that he "retired from military life". On return to Australia, he simply became a part-timer again.
      • My source on that, the Oxford Companion to Australian Military History declared that he "returned to civilian life", and ADB mentions his AFC appointment being terminated and him going into business as an importer. Taken together that certainly sounded like a retirement from military life. Are you looking at p.9 of the file on NAA for evidence that we was still a part-timer after AFC? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • The ADB is correct. His AIF appointment was terminated but he still remained in the Army as a reservist. This is an issue I have with the ADB. They split hairs all the time and you can't paraphrase them with double-checking with the sources - and then what use was the ADB? Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nor did he become a captain in the AAC. Like all AIF officers, he was entitle to retain his AIF rank as an honorary rank; but his substantive rank was still lieutenant. He was promoted to substantive captain only on 3 March 1921 - the day he transferred to the RAAF.
      • I'm going on Who's Who for him joining AAC as Captain; also could you point me out where in the file on NAA he's only a temp Captain and/or where he's not a Captain in AAC, I haven't spotted that. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Page 9. Honorary, not temporary.
    • You mention his time with No. 2 Squadron (okay, so you got it a bit wrong, as he left No. 2 in December 1917 and returned in June 1918) but not his time with No. 5 Squadron.
      • Hawkeye, before I respond in detail, is your source for all of the above the personnel file (and nothing else)? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, there was also Cutlack for the first point, and the 1919 AIF list... but his personnel file is the primary source... Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:19, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • On this particular point, are you looking at p.17 of the file on NAA? No. 5 looks like a training squadron, it's not something any of the secondary sources thought worth mentioning, and I tend to go with them... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • Fair enough. Yes, No. 5 (along with 6,7 and 8) was a training squadron in the UK. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Allied advances on Lae–Nadzab" They were were advancing on Lae. I think you mean the landing at Lae and landing at Nadzab.
      • I'm going on what my source says about Cole supporting "General MacArthur's advance to Lae-Nadzab": Odgers, Air War Against Japan, p.11. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • How about linking the two battle articles? Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • In a more general vein, it is hard to disagree with Cole that something was amiss with the RAAF's administration:
      • Cole (and all of the 21 officers of the original group) achieved much faster promotion than his Army colleagues and attended Staff College and the idc. This should have marked him out for higher command but he does nothing useful until he returns to Australia in 1943. It seems that a lot of RAAF officers were in sinecures overseas.
        • Ironically, some of these senior officers were admonished in internal government reports for not contributing more to the leadership of the RAAF - even those who had been shunted off to a series of overseas postings...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • He complains about the lack of long range fighters. Did he (or anyone in the RAAF) foresee this before the war?
      • Indeed, what was taught at Point Cook before the war? Did the RAAF have any concept at all of what was involved in fighting an air war?
      • What steps did he take to extend the range of his aircraft? Did the RAAF acquire long range fighters? How did he operate the B-24s without them without heavy losses?
        • I'm assuming there's no suggestion of incorporating this 'general vein' commentary in the Cole article, worthy though it may be to consider in the broad sense of RAAF history? There are few if any simple answers...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Sorry, just ignore the "general vein"... I was becoming aware of differences between the USAAF flyboys I had written up (Kenney, Walker, Wurtsmith, Whitehead, Williams etc) and the RAAF bios. At first I thought it was you but I've come to the conclusion that it is the RAAF. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:22, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • Heh, nice to be found innocent, even if I didn't know there was a case to answer...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Yet more great work. My suggestions for further improvement are:
    • According to the AWM the Army was the 'Commonwealth Military Forces' at the time Cole joined, and didn't become the AMF until 1916
      • Yeah, I'd seen a source (not related to Cole) that agreed with what's in your AWM link, and another that said it was always AMF, plus the relevant Cole source which said AMF, so I opted for AMF. Will review again...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Do any of your sources explain how and why Cole joined the AIF to become a pilot? It's interesting that he moved from the safe home defence only AMF to the most dangerous part of the AIF.
      • Nothing except what's there I'm afraid, that he just wanted to become a pilot. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think that the bureaucratic text before and after the medal citations should be removed as they don't add anything (eg, the bit with his name, before the citation, etc)
    • The statement that Cole was briefly a civilian is a big vague - did he take a routine discharge from the AIF and then decide to join the military, or was he forced out of the military while the AAC was established?
      • See above discussion with Hawkeye for some background - the sources are a little contradictory so I opted for something that appears to cover everything. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • There should be a link to North Western Area Campaign and coverage of its operations over the Netherlands East Indies in the section on Cole commanding the RAAF in the area, but I can't figure out where to insert this into the current text.
    • Do we know what Cole did at the party which ended his air force career?
      • Because it's only mentioned in the one source (but which carefully cites much correspondence), and because there's a fair degree of discrepancy between what he was alleged to have done (hurled abuse at officers and men) and what Jones determined that he had done (held forth rather incoherantly), I didn't want to allocate a huge amount of space to it. I may be able to round things out with what everyone seemed to agree on (basically that he 'took over' proceedings at a mess meeting inappropriately and/or in a rambling manner). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Is there any reason why Cole was preselected to take on the Minister responsible for the Air Force? (he appears to have held a fairly safe Labor seat, so at face value it seems feasible that the Liberals were seeking to generate headlines by standing an accomplished airman against the Minister)
      • Not a sausage, unfortunately. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • As a general comment Ian, the more of these articles I read the more I realise what a total mess the RAAF's high command was! Nick-D (talk) 08:33, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • You said it...! I had no idea myself till I got into all this via the Morotai Mutiny article, which led to the Chief of Air Force article, George Jones, etc, etc. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I believe this meets the A class criteria, although to be honest I am not a guru on the MOS. I've read the article about five times now and nothing glaring sticks out, though. Well done. AustralianRupert (talk) 14:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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