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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/23rd (Northumbrian) Division

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 09:20, 24 July 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list

23rd (Northumbrian) DivisionEdit

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Nominator(s): EnigmaMcmxc (talk)

23rd (Northumbrian) Division (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

The 23rd (Northumbrian) Division was a British Army division of the Second World War. Barely trained, the division was sent to France in 1940 as unskilled labours and with a promise of not being used a combat formation. When the German advance through the Ardennes split the Allied armies, the division was put on the frontline. With no realistic hope of stopping the Germans, the division did its best and got mauled in the process. It escaped via Dunkirk, and after it's return home was broken up to reinforce other units. The article has recently been overhauled and greatly expanded, was given a copyedit by the GOCE, and has just past its GA review. I believe it is ready for it's A-Class.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:51, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

CommentsSupport by PMEdit

This article is in good shape. I did have a quick look at this during peer review, but have a few comments:

Lead
  • link brigade
    Link addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "as a hindrance to good morale" as morale in itself isn't good or poor
    Added the descriptiveEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • what is the Field Force? link? Or is meant to be BEF?
    This was originally "for the main fighting force's rear echelon", but was changed during the subsequent copyedits. I have switched it up to BEF.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • link military logistics for logistical
    Link addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "to continue its labour duties" but weren't they guarding airfields by this stage?
    I have tweaked this point to match the main bodyEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "the Germans had already crossed at several placessouth of their sector where French forces had yet to take up positions"
    AmendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Body
  • suggest "The plan was for the existing unitsdivisions to recruit over their established strengths and then form Second Line divisions around small cadres."
    tweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • suggest moving "In April, limited conscription was introduced. At that time 34,500 militiamen, all aged 20, were conscripted into the regular army, initially to be trained for six months before being deployed to the forming second line units" to after "... just 25 officers and men."
    Sentence movedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "like its first line parent unitformation" as formations are distinct from units
    AmendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • for shoulder patch link Formation patch
    Link addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "nineteen as the age limitminimum age"
    tweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "TA envisioned itthe divisions being deployed singly" as piecemeal makes it sound like individual brigades and battalions would be sent over independently, which I understand wasn't the case?
    Quite correct, full formations. I have amended per your suggestion.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "whole force"→"whole TA" if that is what is meant?
    Quite, amendment madeEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • suggest "In order to free up First Line formations for training, Second Line formations were assigned..."
    I have tweaked the sentence to follow your line of thought, but also maintain the individuality of the sentence in relation to the division. Does this work?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • suggest "drill parade"→"parade-ground drill"
    AmendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • could the footnoting [36][37][38][39][40] be a bit more granular? Generally it is preferred to keep a cluster of footnotes down to three or less
  • AddressedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • who is Tim Lynch?
    Descriptive addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "23rd division"→"The 23rd Division"
    fixedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • link field gun
    link addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • link vanguard
    link addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • where did 1st Battalion, Tyneside Scottish come from? You need to insert into the body at the appropriate chronological point, that the 12th DLI was retitled. Take it out of the note and insert it in text
    have done soEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • link bridgehead
  • "headquarters of the 70th Brigade" if that is correct?
    AmendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • suggest "with wide intervals in case of attacks by the Luftwaffe" Luftwaffe is now in general dictionaries like Merriam-Webster, so it doesn't need to be italicized
    RemovedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "At 08:30 on 20 May"
    fixedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "deployed toon either side of the road"
    AmendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • companies tookwent to ground near the road
    AmendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • we've already been told that the 11st DLI had been killed or captured, but then a company turns up at Nuncq?
    So only elements were at Wancourt, I have made a change to the sentence after the Wancourt action in an effort to clarify this. Rissik is not exactly clear on how many troops were at Wancourt, but the entire battalion was not caught in the action is for sure.
  • "were knocked out" or "were put out of action"?
    My understanding is that knocked out is the more technical term? But I have changed to your suggestion.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "the independent 20th Brigade" if that is correct? Otherwise tell us what division it was from?
    Quite glad you pointed this out, this was a misreading of Rissik on my part: "...on the 20th Brigade" HQ, NOT 20th Brigade HQ! I have amended this. To note, there was a 20th Indy Brigade in France (part of my confusion), although looking at Joslen they didn't turn up in France for another 2 days and were involved in the siege at Boulogne.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "regulars and fully equipped divisions" do we know what formations these were? It would be better to use their names here
    I have dropped the regular part (as it included a first line TA div) and added who it wasEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "Major-General Herbert" per MOS
    Rank droppedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • suggest "east of besieged Calais"
    AmendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "without inflicting damage or casualties, before they were recognised as British tanks"→"before they were recognised as British tanks, without inflicting damage or casualties."
    Switched upEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • drop the cap on Mole as it is not a proper name
    Cap droppedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • the GOC section seems redundant, as there was only one GOC and he is mentioned in the body
    RemovedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • the ORBAT needs a date at which this was the ORBAT
    Date addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • who were the brigadiers?
    I have added them in at an appropriate place in the text: "Brigadier Richard Dawnay's 69th Brigade held the northern portion..."EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • you don't need to link Osprey more than once in the Refs
    Dup link removedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Barnsey→Barnsley in the Refs
    Typo fixedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Great job on this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:24, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your time, comments, and review. I have made several changes to per a number of your suggestions. I will endeavor to address the remainder tomorrow.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
I have worked on the remaining issues you brought up, I hope this addresses everything?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Nicely done. I tweaked a couple of typos and links. Also the sources look of high quality and reliable. In the Refs, there is a missing cap in Rissik's "Durham Light iInfantry". Supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:19, 14 July 2019 (UTC)


Image reviewEdit

  • Suggest including a legend in the caption of the first map
    I have amended the caption, does this work?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
    Think it could use a bit more information, and could a full legend be added to the image description page? There's a lot of detail in that map. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:26, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
    I have added a full legend to the wiki article, and expanded what is in this article. If further information is required, please let me know.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • File:10May_16May_Battle_of_Belgium.PNG: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:11, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
    I have added an archive link to the commons page.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
@Nikkimaria: Gog the Mild (talk) 11:31, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Support by Gog the MildEdit

  • "the re-emergence of Germany" My usual comment, to which I expect you will respond with your usual amendment.
    An unfortunate slip considering the various changes I made to this based off our previous work.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "and moved to surround the British and French forces in northern France" Suggest "surround" → 'cut off'.
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "and came to the Munich Agreement, the German annexation of Sudetenland" Reads a little clunkily. Maybe 'and came to the Munich Agreement, which accepted that the Germans would annex the Sudetenland' or similar?
    RewordedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "Second Line" → 'second line'. Similarly with "First Line".
    Capitals droppedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "from small cadres" Consider removing "small" as this seems implicit in "cadres". Link cadre.
    AmendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "Sources differ on the background indicating it was either blue or green" is a little unclear to me. Perhaps 'Sources differ on whether the background was blue or green'?
    Tweaked per your suggestionEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "Those who remained were issued with rifles and other essentials." Just checking that for the first five months of its existence the division was so unmilitary a formation that its infantry did not even possess rifles. Given the stocks left over from WWI it seems difficult to credit.
    This was a left over piece of the prior version of the article that was incorporated into the expansion I undertook. Looking at the source used, Cheall states that when he reported to this unit (just prior to the outbreak of the war), him and all others were give a rifle and some basic equipment. Considering he is speaking for just his battalion, I think it is best to just remove the sentence to avoid confusion or unnecessary implications.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "divisions being deployed singly ... as equipment became available"; "the deployment of the whole TA in waves, as divisions completed their training". These statements seem to me to be contradictory.
    Per the source, the plan was to deploy TA divisions (as whole formations, and not being broken up and dispatched abroad) as they completed their training. The intent was to have the entire TA in France within 12-months. Per Gibbs, on the following timetable:
    The regular army deployed within the first six weeks
    The first ten TA divisions sent in three waves in the 4th, 5th, and 6th months of the war.
    The remaining 16 TA divisions in two waves in the 9th and 12th month.
    Assuming there were no hiccups. With that said, do you have a recommendation on how best to convey this information?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
Hmm. Maybe something like "The war-time deployment of the TA envisioned the divisions being deployed singly, to reinforce the regular army that had already been dispatched to the European mainland, as equipment became available. The plan envisioned the deployment of the whole TA in waves, as divisions completed their training."
'It was envisioned that the TA divisions each be deployed intact to reinforce the regular army units in France as equipment became available, with between two and eight divisions being so transferred at a time over the first twelve months of the war.'
  • I have updated the article per your suggestion.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 18:06, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "On February 1, the 12th DLI became the Tyneside Scottish and became part of the Black Watch" The second "became" → 'a'.
  • TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:31, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

  • "redeployed to France as front-line capable soldiers" I am not sure that this works. Strictly there should be another hyphen between "front-line" and "capable", but it may be better if you could think of a better way of expressing it.
    I have went for the simple approach of dropping "capable", seems a bit redundant. Does this work?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
It seems fine now.
  • "although few had been trained how to use them" → 'although few had been trained in how to use them'.
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "trapping those in Belgium from the rest of the French military along the Franco-German border" This doesn't work. Either "trapping" → 'separating' or similar, or rephrase the clause after "Belgium".
    Switched out trapping with separating, per your suggestion.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "It was spread across the Pas-de-Calais and the Somme" Optional: I know that you have Wikilinked, but it may help a reader to change to something like 'It was spread across the French departments of Pas-de-Calais and Somme' as well. If not, the definite article should be removed from in front of "the Pas-de-Calais and the Somme".
    I have gone with your suggestion, and added in the additional detail and link.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "Once the realisation that the German crossing of the Meuse had turned into a major breakthrough, the BEF and French armies began a fighting withdrawal from Belgium back to France" There seem to be some words missing from the first part of this[?]
    I have reworded part of this sentence. I hope it reads better now.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
I have, rather cheekily, changed this directly. If you don't like it, please revert it.
  • "Petreforce, the grouping of the 12th (Eastern), the 23rd Division, and other nearby units" I had thought that 46th Division was also part of Petreforce, even if not much of it got to the front. If you, or your sources, know better, please disregard.
    I am not sure if it became part at a latter date. The division's role in the fighting around Arras diverges quite quickly from Petreforce, despite officially being part of it. Ellis states on formation it was the 23rd, one brigade of the 12th, along the Arras garrison (1 battalion, 18 field guns, other nearby RA and RE units, and a handful of tanks).EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
OK. It is not really my specialist area. It is fine as is.
  • "Petre informed his subordinates that the French were resilient on either side of the German breakthrough and only small German units" Maybe 'and that only small German units'?
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "Brigadier Philip Kirkup's 70th Brigade 70th Brigade held the southern flank"
    Gah! Duplicate wording removed.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "a composite battery of 11 field guns and two 4.5 howitzers" "11" → 'eleven'.
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "What followed, was a series of confused company actions" The comma is unnecessary.
    RemovedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "Battle of France" is a very long section. Would it be possible to introduce some sub-sections?
    I have broken it up into a few sections, and added an extra map. Not quite to happy with the way it looks so completely open to suggestions.
It seems ok to me. I don't think that it is worth trying to be too perfectionist about. (But that may just be me.)
  • The penultimate paragraph of "Battle of France" may benefit from being split.
    I made a split where I switched from talking about the division, to its separated battalion. Does this work?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
IMO, yes.
  • "the level of training on their use was still inadequate" "on" → 'in'.
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "5th and 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Divisions who subsequently launched a minor counter-attack" "who" → 'which'.
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Note 1: "(compared to the creation of Kitchener's Army)" "compared" → 'comparable'.
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Note 1: "This avoided the complications with the" → 'This avoided the complications experienced with the'
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 22:07, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

As always, thank you for the comments. I have tried to address them all, and have left some comments in regards to the ones I have yet to do so.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
Looking good. A very impressive article, worthy of its topic. A couple of thoughts above. Where no comment, assume that I am content. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:48, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Comments from AustralianRupertEdit

Support: G'day, nice work, as always. I have a few minor points: AustralianRupert (talk) 12:09, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

  • Men of 7th Green Howards, 69th... --> "the 7th Green Howards"
    Tweaked per your suggestionEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • outbreak of the war.[13][14][13] --> remove the second note 13
    Great catch!EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • inconsistent spelling: "motorized" and "motorised"
    Went back over the article to get the "ise" back in. The one inconsistency should now be between the quoted text and the article text.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division is overlinked
    Dup link removedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • represented the regiment's light --> "regiments'"?
As a possessive, should it not have an apostrophe? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:20, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
I tweaked the sentence, to hopefully satisfy both?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
As a plural possessive the apostrophe was in the wrong place (it would go outside the "s"). The tweak resolves this. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:02, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • For the 23rd (Northumbrian) Division, this resulted in the loss of upwards of 10 per cent of the strength of the division --> "For the 23rd (Northumbrian) Division, this resulted in the loss of upwards of 10 per cent of its strength"
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Once the realisation that the German crossing of the Meuse had turned into a major breakthrough, the BEF and French armies began a fighting withdrawal from Belgium back to France. --> who realised this?
    I have reworded this, does this work?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
    Yes, that works. AustralianRupert (talk) 09:02, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • places, let along a tank --> "let alone"?
    Quite correct!EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • However, most lacked --> "However, most of the guns lacked..."
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • "reconnoiter" --> "reconnoitre"
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • sources: appear to be reliable to me based on publishers and authors

Thank you for your review and comments, I have attempted to address all pointsEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

No worries, added my support now. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:02, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.