Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2023 September 5

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September 5

Venetian island

In the Venetian lagoon, directly above Castello at around 45.441039°N 12.356454°E / 45.441039; 12.356454, there is an "island", or at least a couple islands in a patch of wetland that probably gets submerged at high tide.

This island is not given a name in any maps of Venice I have seen, official or unofficial, other than in a Navionics chart (found here) where it is labelled as "B Marani H", although I suspect this has more to do with its proximity to the Canale dei Marani.

Moreover, this island appears to be artificial; no maps prior to 2007 have the island existing, and Google Earth has no traces of the island in and prior to September 2007, until its (very defined) outline appears in the April 2010 satellite imagery. Note that although the outline has not changed, the features of the island appear to be constantly shifting, probably thanks to natural lagoon movements.

I have pursued the possibility that it has to do with MOSE, headquartered directly south near the Venetian Arsenal, but as I am unable to read Italian, I have made little headway. As such, I was wondering two primary questions:

1. Does this island have a name?

2. Why was it constructed?

151.198.1.205 (talk) 01:46, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

It ought to be be in the intersection of Category:Islands of the Venetian Lagoon and Category:Artificial islands of Italy, but the only member of that intersection is Tronchetto, located at the other end of Venice, to the west. The new island is remarkably close to the current location of the MOSE control centre (see MOSE § Venice Arsenal), from which it is separated by only a 170 m-wide channel, and has a comparable size, so perhaps (speculation alert) the idea is to relocate the control centre to the new island once MOSE is fully operational.  --Lambiam 12:49, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Google Maps[1] has the island tagged with "Unione Sportiva Carmini Venezia", the name of a local Basketball Team: [2]. I find it hard to believe they have any kind of facility on said island. --Jayron32 16:29, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

In Google Street View it seems to be nothing more than a sand bank [3]. --Wrongfilter (talk) 16:36, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

That might explain why it doesn't have a name. As a low-lying, likely ephemeral sandbank, it may not have a formal name. --Jayron32 16:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree that it seems likely that the island doesn't have a formal name; a large portion of the islands in the Venetian lagoon have no name, and even when islands do have names, there is no consistent scheme for naming (for example, plenty of "islands", like Burano, are actually multiple islands grouped together.) The main reason why I'm interested in this island, however, is that judging by the solid, static outline, it seems that the island was explicitly constructed and not merely ephemeral. Without an explicit reason given for its construction, and with very little development after its initial appearance between 2007 and 2010, however, I'm still baffled as to what it could be, although I am pursuing Lambiam's speculatory angle further. 151.198.1.205 (talk) 17:06, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

If it were constructed, it could be a Breakwater of some sort, perhaps as a form of erosion control. After all, Venice is particularly susceptible to such problems, given its unique geography. --Jayron32 17:17, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

That's a fairly protected area of the lagoon, though, and an unlikely place for a breakwater. I just noticed that the street view images are from 2013, whereas the satellite images are from 2023 and show quite a bit of vegetation on the northeastern portion. Anyway, I have a few vacation days left, so if you pay for a trip to Venice I'll ask around. No? Okay... --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:25, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Given the vegetation, I wonder if the island might have at least some use for wildlife, particularly the flamingos that often winter in the lagoon? 151.198.1.205 (talk) 17:37, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

If you look at arial views of Venice circa 1990, you will see that the island was barely visible. At that time, they were experimenting with dredging. In 1995, they went into a large-scale multi-year dredging project. You can look at arial views in 1995, 1996, 1997, etc... and see the island grow dramatically. Therefore, I feel that it is likely the result of dredge dumping. This is not abnormal. When a waterway is dredged, the material has to be dumped somewhere. In Charleston, SC, there is an island often called "Drum Island" that is not actually an island at all. It is a dredge dumping location that was built up over time. It has the same appearance which is created by going over the island with bulldozers to evenly distribute new dredge that is dumped. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 17:26, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Dredging does sound like a very likely explanation. Would you happen to have a place where I might be able to see the aerial photos? Google Earth unfortunately has a large gap in satellite imagery between 1985 and 2003. Thanks! 151.198.1.205 (talk) 17:35, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Here's a comparison between images from 2000 and 2013 [4]. The appearance of all those islands east of Murano is astonishing, are those also new? --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:38, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Interesting, I've never noticed that before. It definitely appears that those islands are also all new, with their appearance on Google Earth satellite being in the same 2007-2010 gap. Given those islands' distance from MOSE, I'm inclined now to believe that the dredging theory is likely, and that proximity to MOSE might either be a coincidental byproduct, or an intentional commandeering of dredged materials for some as-yet-unknown purpose. 151.198.1.205 (talk) 17:44, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

This archived project page details a 2009-11 dredging project, where apparently the dredged soil was to be evaluated for contamination and disposed of accordingly. Three disposal locations are listed: Isola delle Tresse, Molo Sali, and the Moranzani Plants. Based on satellite imagery, it does seem that Isola delle Tresse underwent an expansion, just like the islands mentioned earlier, between 2007 and 2010. I'm not entirely sure where Molo Sali is, other than "along the western bank of the North Industrial Canal." Meanwhile, while Moranzani can be easily found, the eponymous plants are not identified. If there was excess sediment from this dredging project, it's possible, given the timeline, that the new islands were a product of these. 151.198.1.205 (talk) 18:02, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Molo Sali appears to be in the modern port area. An unused part of a canal appears to have been dammed off between 2004 and 2006 (according to Google's aerial images) and some material has been dumped there, but it isn't anywhere near full. South of Moranzani some wetlands have been dammed off around the same time, but it doesn't look like anything has been dumped there. Isola delle Tresse has been greatly expanded and appears to be well above sea level. That makes sense. This dredge material is often contaminated so you don't want it to be washed away. And even if not contaminated, you don't want it to be washed back to where it came from.

The new, artificial islands near the centre of Venezia are very low. On some of Google's images they are flooded. It might be nature redevelopment. Or it could be to manage the flow of water in the laguna, improving water quality. By making the new islands very low, this can be done without increasing water level during storm surges. Or both at the same time. Somebody locally familiar might know more. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:59, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Big thank you to everyone who's commented here for their help, I think I've figured it out, and the answer was apparently right under my nose this whole time. In addition to their work on anti-flood systems, MOSE also works on habitat protection and reconstruction. In photo 36, you can see the island, and the caption indicates that it was constructed for that project. Based on the other photos, it was likely made with dredged sediment, although I'm not sure exactly from where the sediment was dredged. 151.198.1.205 (talk) 22:38, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Resolved

Linking to Spotify

I’m reviewing an article that uses a link to a Spotify discography as a reference. The person who added the link is in the UK, while I’m in the US. The link doesn’t work for me. Is there a way to share links to Spotify discographies that are region neutral so everyone can access them? Viriditas (talk) 21:40, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Depending on how it was generated (on which I have no idea), a Spotify discography may not be a reliable source. --Viennese Waltz 06:08, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I’m glad you brought that up. What about for basic WP:BLUESKY information? I would like to think that a Spotify discography page would be reliable for this kind of basic data. Viriditas (talk) 10:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

If this is about the piri discography, it works for me from both US-based and EU-based IP addresses, but the archived links do not work.  --Lambiam 08:51, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, the live link works great on desktop, but doesn’t work on mobile (iPhone). This is odd to me, as I’ve never had this problem before. Can you run a mobile emulator? Viriditas (talk) 10:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

On mobile Spotify sends me to the home page and wants me to get the app; it does not open up the discography page.  --Lambiam 11:26, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I have the app and it just gives me an error message. Viriditas (talk) 11:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)