Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2022 March 22

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March 22

Why haven’t traditional clothes made a comeback like other modern fashions?

For example, why am I not wearing a toga right now? What’s preventing the toga (or other historical fashion) from coming back into vogue? I myself have experience with wearing other types of clothes, such as Nepalese and Tibetan clothes when I lived in a cold climate. They were surprisingly contemporary, even though they were handmade. What’s the barrier to bringing back the toga, as only one example? Viriditas (talk) 02:29, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

See Toga party. --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, fully aware. My point is, why aren’t we wearing togas now? Is there some kind of drawback to it? Viriditas (talk) 08:23, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

There is no barrier, as such, but fashion is in large part a perpetual business battleground between many different designers and retailers to capture the purchasers' imaginations and money. In order to achieve any success in that battleground, one would have to deploy resources (ideas, expertise and money) on a similar scale to that of those already successful in the field. (This is of course not the whole story; to an extent, what fashions are invented and/or adopted by 'the public', and why, is (I suggest) a mysterious emergent property as yet unpredictable and unexplainable.)

Some Europeans have always seen the sense of adopting local and/or climate-appropriate clothing (I recall Arthur C. Clarke's adoption of the sarong after settling in Sri Lanka): some eccentric have even persisted with those 'fashions' after returning to their countries of origin, and others have at least briefly taken them up. Nothing stops you from wearing a toga, but for this to become 'fashionable' a significant number of others need to be persuaded that it's a good idea. How is that going to come about?

You ask "Is there some kind of drawback to it?" From my reading, the toga was difficult both to don and to wear, persisted in Ancient Rome only because it was for a period a status symbol and restricted 'uniform' of the uppermost male echelons of society, and was in any case was usually only worn in formal situations. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.213.229.59 (talk) 08:37, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

But anyway, don't wear a cape.  Card Zero  (talk) 02:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

As our article about Togas explains, "it was hard to put on, uncomfortable and challenging to wear correctly, and never truly popular." Modocc (talk) 16:16, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I just saw that. Strangely, it sounds very much like a metaphor for our dysfunctional democracy. That is to say, the toga, like democracy, "is the worst form of [clothing] except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." Viriditas (talk) 22:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

... a significant number of others need to be persuaded that it's a good idea - that sounds logical, but one huge counter-example is pre-ripped jeans (and the appalling rags they've spawned). The only "good idea" about it is that plenty of other people are wearing such garments, and they want to do what others are doing. But the concept itself is clearly the very antithesis of "a good idea". I realise this fight was lost long ago, but curmudgeons never capitulate. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:34, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I used to play music with a guitarist who fell in love with ripped jeans. I had a hard time believing it until it happened to me. A pair of jeans that I wore for many years finally gave up the ghost in the knees and ripped cleanly across the joint. It was only then that I discovered for myself why my friend enjoyed this style so much. What I found was that the extra space and airflow in the knees added a level of comfort that I didn’t expect. In both instances, our jeans had ripped naturally. I wouldn’t go out of my way to buy pre-ripped jeans, but I can now understand the attraction. It’s function over form. Viriditas (talk) 00:09, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Comfort is important. But how does that stack up against a totally crap look? The only wearers of such clothes who look half-way OK are those lucky people who could wear literally anything and still look good, because of their personal charm. But that does not apply to 99% of pre-ripped-jean-wearing people. They don't wear it because it looks good on them - because it clearly doesn't; they wear it solely because others are doing so. Yet they're concerned whether their bum looks big in this. Give me strength. </rant> -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:53, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

It was a thing in the late 1980s, early 1990s, and became even bigger when Kurt Cobain made ripped jeans a part of his style. However, I distinctly remember fans of British New Wave music sporting the ripped jeans style in the mid-1980s, and before that, it was a symbol of the punk scene in the 1970s, with Joey Ramone of The Ramones famously appearing in them, with the style said to originate with Johnny Rotten of The Sex Pistols around that time. To your point, it was intended to look crappy, as a symbol of the gritty realism of the urban landscape where these people lived and played music. Our article on 1970s in fashion is quite good and talks briefly about the style. Viriditas (talk) 08:37, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

"But how does that stack up against a totally crap look?" Pretty dang well, actually. As whether a look is "totally crap" is a matter of opinion. And there is no reason why anyone else should rank your opinion above their own as to whether their outfit looks good. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:07, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

More to the point "Looks good" is an entirely personal and subjective standard. There are no universal, handed-down-from-God-on-high-and-carved-in-stone-tablets standards for "What looks good". There are no laws of physics that determine what looks good. It doesn't look good to Jack, but that's their own personal, unique, and completely-and-only-to-themselves feeling on the matter. Other people may have a different view on what looks good to them. It doesn't make them wrong because Jack doesn't think it looks good. Fashion is an almost purely opinion-based matter, and has nothing to do with objective standards. --Jayron32 16:31, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

You don't say, Jayron. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:15, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

I only say because it seems at times you have expectations that things should be different than they are. --Jayron32 11:46, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Do you discipline your children? Do you practise self-improvement? Have you pursued a career? Have you ever studied a subject to gain more knowledge and skills? These all involve expecting things to be different from how they are. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:57, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Those are based around expectations that things would be better than how they are. Things like fashion are not better or worse; they cannot be judged on such a scale. --Jayron32 11:15, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Just think how much better things would be if bell-bottom pants made a comeback! --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:52, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Again? They "come back" at least once a decade. --Jayron32 16:14, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Just like disco. --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:20, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

@ Jayron: I would agree, in general. The obvious elephant-in-the-room exception is, of course, ripped jeans. Memorise this - Fashion Principle No. 1: Ripped jeans = worse, non-ripped jeans = better. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:01, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Nobody wears white after Dies Laboris. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:06, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Which always makes me follow this up with the question "until when?" When is the time, between one Dies Laboris and the next, when one can start wearing white again? JIP | Talk 02:37, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Generally, spring and summer. If you need a more specific date, it is usually thought of as Memorial Day in the US (last Monday of May, historically set as the 30th before the move to Monday holidays). User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 09:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Culturally, the U.S. thinks of summer as Memorial Day to Labor Day; being the end of May to the beginning of September, roughly speaking. Things like public pools, amusement parks, seasonal vacation resorts, etc. tend to work on a "Memorial Day to Labor Day" schedule, opening the last weekend in May and closing the first weekend in September.

Somehow it seems proper and necessary to link to Straw Hat Riot after your link. There's a point to be made about how people may attack others, metaphorically or literally, for wearing the wrong items (according to some deep, unexamined feeling about what's proper and necessary). Explaining this means explaining how the fashion memes reproduce, which is not necessarily anything to do with rationality. Social pressure against wearing the wrong thing must be a defence mechanism belonging to the memes about wearing the right things.  Card Zero  (talk) 10:12, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

From experience, I can tell you that a toga is hard to put on properly and keep in place outside of stationary activities like giving an oration in the senate. A Roman man who had occasion to wear one probably had a slave who could quickly re-dress him if needed. The old guys had a rule not to use any instruments to fasten to garment in place, and for good reason. A brooch and a belt might do the trick. But they'd undermine the main appeal of the toga: its beautiful, effotless-appearing drape. With bodily movement, the tension these use to accomplish their task would make the wearer look like they're in rags. Messy Roman! Repopularization would require not only a popular desire, but also knowledge of how to put them on and keep them looking good. A slip-on faux toga might work, but again it would be ugly, unless bespoke. Temerarius (talk) 16:32, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

And a note about candidus post diem laboris: it didn't mean don't wear a white shirt in fall, or a white dress. It meant don't wear a white suit. Temerarius (talk) 16:37, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Which was the point of the Toga. Throughout history, fashion has been used to signal social class, and usually the upper classes wore clothes that indicated that they didn't do work. This usually takes the form of elaborate or cumbersome clothes that are not ideal for doing actual labor in. Togas are a great example of this, but so also are things like the elaborate wigs worn by 17th century European nobility, even the modern business suit doesn't say "This man works on a farm all day". The OP cites the Toga, but the average resident of the Roman Empire would have never worn one. They would have tunics. Heck, even Senators wore tunics for most occasions, the Toga was only worn on formal occasiona. --Jayron32 16:42, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Not just clothing. Tans didn't become fashionable until such time as most people worked indoors most of the time. Before that, a tan would signal that you were a common laborer. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:07, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

An analogy with the toga is the Japanese sokutai court dress, which includes a long hakama (similar to baggy trousers) that is very difficult to walk in wkithout tripping over, unless you have been trained in the right technique. Alansplodge (talk) 11:57, 25 March 2022 (UTC)