Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2019 November 6

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November 6

Can five lines of bearing pinpoint a location?

On a sphere, given 5 starting points and lines of bearing, is that enough to pinpoint a location? Curious about the general case. Also, curious about Project Azorian, where it says it took three weeks to locate a submarine in an area provided by five points of bearing. I suspect in that case it is due to the sub sinking and drifting on its way down and ocean bottom topography etc. RudolfRed (talk) 03:10, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

If I understand your terminology correctly, each line of bearing is a vector along the surface of the sphere. If so, then 2 should be sufficient to define a location on the surface, although the vectors will also meet at the opposite side of the Earth (the antipode). Typically, you know the location well enough to know which of those two is correct. However, in the real world, those vectors can be off a bit, so the more the better, as then you can get an average range where the object may be located (or below which it may be located). Of course, as you noted, if the object changes location and depth after the bearings are established, that complicates matters. See bearing (navigation). SinisterLefty (talk) 03:55, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@SinisterLefty: That makes sense, thank you. RudolfRed (talk) 17:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@SinisterLefty: I'm not sure two always suffice. What if the target is exactly on the great circle passing through both 2 bearing stations...? --CiaPan (talk) 16:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, technically I should have said "2 non-identical lines of bearing". Also, 2 almost identical lines of bearing would have a much larger margin of error around the 2 antipodal points. The two being at right angles would be ideal. SinisterLefty (talk) 05:09, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

@SinisterLefty: Can we conclude that 2 bearings are enough in almost all cases, with the exception when the position is on the great circle passing through the two stations; and that a third bearing resolves that case? With the additional note about antipodal intersections, which may appear indistinguishable if the range of a bearing exceeds half of the great circle circumference. --CiaPan (talk) 23:32, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

With a proviso: The 3rd station must not be on or close to the great circle containing the first two stations. And as for distinguishing between the antipodal cases, there would likely be a difference in signal strength which would tell you which was the correct point, of the two, unless all the stations just happened to be about halfway around the Earth from the target. SinisterLefty (talk) 02:31, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

What to do with a watch I can't set ?

Pic 1.

Pic 2.

Somebody I know was given a watch, but they don't know how to set the time, and it isn't obvious from the controls. I tried hitting the various buttons, and couldn't figure it out. No brand name or model is displayed and they don't have any instructions or packaging. It's made in China. The controls are 4 buttons, labelled Light, Reset, Mode and Time (not positive on the last two). I am thinking of opening it up to try to find a model number or manufacturer, then doing a web search for instructions using that. Any other ideas ? SinisterLefty (talk) 07:47, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Before taking it apart, and since you've nothing to lose anyway, try fiddling with all the buttons and see what they do. I had a cheap clock or watch once that combined things kind of confusingly. I would try Mode and see if it presents a menu of some sort. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:20, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I already tried that. Nothing like a menu, just various times and dates display and some portions of them flash. I'm guessing one is an alarm time and date. But I never get the current time (hours or minutes) to flash. SinisterLefty (talk) 08:30, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Are you sure about that? Could you get the seconds of the current time to flash?

Have your trials included holding buttons in for extended periods. I had a clock that required one button to be held in for about 10 seconds before it activated. An image of the watch might help others to recognise it. Richard Avery (talk) 08:38, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Haven't tried holding buttons down yet. I'm afraid holding the Reset button down might reset it to midnight on Jan 1. Right now it's correct except that Daylight Saving Time threw it off by an hour. SinisterLefty (talk) 09:57, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

May I suggest a picture of the watch? We may recognise it and be able to find you a user manual online. Thanks Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 09:11, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Pics added. SinisterLefty (talk) 09:32, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I would take it into a shop such as a jewellers where they are used to changing watch batteries which usually involves resetting the watch.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:16, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Note that no text ever appears on the display, other than the date and time. That is, no words like "SET TIME HOURS" or "SET ALARM DATE". SinisterLefty (talk) 09:35, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Is one button recessed, so that it is harder to press accidently? If so, that's probably the one setting the time. Try pressing and holding it for a few seconds and see what happens. If that is the right button, then it will go into time setting mode, which will likely work by either: a) holding down the button will rapidly advance the time until you let go when it gets to the correct time, or b) pressing the button again will cycle through data / hour / minute / second, and you use another button to chage that. Iapetus (talk) 09:55, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

No buttons are recessed. SinisterLefty (talk) 09:58, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Is there a pin sized hole anywhere on it? Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 10:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

No. SinisterLefty (talk) 10:51, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Is it ticking? Maybe it's really a bomb lol. --Viennese Waltz 12:27, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Original question was "What to do with a watch I can't set?" Answer, chuck it in the bin. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 16:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I think I've seen this kind of watch before, and if it is that kind of watch, I know what to do. Starting from the normal time display, press MODE. This should put the watch in "stopwatch" mode. Then, without pressing any other buttons, press MODE again. This should put you in alarm-setting mode. Because you don't want to set the alarm, but rather the time, press MODE yet again. Then the current time should be shown, with the seconds flashing. Now, of the two other buttons, one should cause the seconds to reset to 00, and the other should cause the flashing "cursor" to move to the hours. Determine by experiment which of those two buttons does what. Once you have the "cursor" over the hours, pressing the other button (not MODE, and not the button that moves the cursor!) should cause the hours to change. When setting the hours, notice the A, P, or H beside the time. Those letters indicate AM, PM, and military time, respectively. When you are finished setting the time, press MODE again. 2600:1000:B143:20EB:E8E0:EBFB:39CC:EC6 (talk) 17:48, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

"H" stands for military time ? But the rest sounds correct. I did press the MODE button several times, and I think it did what you described (although it wasn't obvious that the flashing item was seconds, since it's a two digit number above the time, which is a weird place for it). I will try the other steps as you describe. Thanks ! Would you happen to have a web site with the full instructions, or a model number for one with that logic, so I can look it up ? I would also like to know how to set the date and turn the alarm off, for example. Am I correct in assuming that the LIGHT button never does anything besides turn on the light while held down ? SinisterLefty (talk) 20:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, H stands for military time (think "1800 hours" and the like). The display is not physically able to show an M, anyway. And yes, when setting the watch, you are supposed to pretend that the LIGHT button doesn't exist. The LIGHT button is only for the light. It doesn't do anything else. (On some watches of this type, there is no light.) And, as it turns out, I had a watch which works like yours lying in a drawer, so here are more detailed instructions. Starting from regular timekeeping mode, press the MODE button thrice. The seconds will then be flashing. Assuming you don't care about the seconds, press RESET to move the "cursor" to the hours. Press START (repeatedly, if necessary) to change the hours. When you are satisfied that the hours are correct, then press RESET to move the cursor to the minutes. Then press START to change the minutes. Lather, rinse, repeat. After the minutes come the date and day of the week. Press MODE once you are finished. Beware that this watch is too stupid to handle the extra day in a leap year, meaning that on February 29, 2020, your watch will show that the day of the week is Saturday (which will be right), and that the date is March 1 (which will be wrong). Then, on March 1, your watch will show March 2, and so forth, making it necessary for you to once again set the date. Now, as for setting the alarm: it works much the same as setting the time, except that you begin by pressing MODE twice rather than thrice. To disable (or enable) the alarm: In normal timekeeping mode, holding the RESET button down should cause the alarm time to be shown. While holding RESET down, tap START. This should cause an "alarm" or "bell" symbol to either appear or disappear. The symbol appears when the alarm is on, and disappears when it is off. Then let go of the RESET button. To enable or disable hourly chime: While holding RESET down, tap MODE. Then let go of the RESET button. That is about all I can figure out for now. 2600:1000:B143:20EB:E8E0:EBFB:39CC:EC6 (talk) 23:42, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the info ! Do you have a model number I can look up to find more ? SinisterLefty (talk) 06:23, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

No. All I know is that they have been around since I was a child in the 1980's, and that even today, they are very common. Wherever you see cheap digital watches for sale, chances are, you will see at least a few which behave exactly as yours does (except for the possible absence of the light and its corresponding button). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1000:B12D:2644:EC49:E6E8:463D:F87C (talk) 06:38, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I've noticed that with consumer electronic devices, whether basic calculators, watches, radio alarm clocks, etc., they all seem to copy each other's electronics, so no matter how much they change the appearance, there's only a few mechanisms inside. I was hoping that fact would allow somebody to recognize this type, and give me hints on how to set it. Myself, I haven't worn a watch since cell phones came out, so don't have much experience setting them. So is your watch brand also too afraid to show their name on the product ? Is it also made in China ? SinisterLefty (talk) 06:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I already gave you extremely detailed instructions on how to set the time, date, and alarm, and how to turn the alarm off and on. Isn't that enough? What more do you want? What are you really after? Compared to (for example) a cell phone, these watches are very, very simple devices. To the best of my knowledge, it is utterly impossible to "brick" such a watch by pressing buttons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1000:B15A:5849:830D:472A:3E4F:6CDD (talk) 23:24, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

UPDATE: I used your instructions and was able to set it, thanks ! There were still some things that didn't make sense to me, though, like under the alarm it seemed to have two days of the week alternate as I pressed buttons. Maybe there are two alarms ? I don't know about bricking it, but the elderly owner had managed to get it into a mode where it was totally useless, I think it was a timer. I hope they don't get stuck in that mode again. Somebody had attempted to set the date, but had the month and day of the month reversed. I fixed that. BTW, which button do you press to display the date, the TIME button ? SinisterLefty (talk) 03:20, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm glad you were able to set it. As for the alarm: I am sure it has only one alarm. The only other features the watch has are an hourly chime (which can be turned on and off -- probably best to leave it off, unless you want to hear "beep-beep" once each hour, day and night) and a stopwatch (which does pretty much the same thing as the stopwatch app on your phone). These are ubiquitous, cheap, Chinese watches, which have been around for at least the past 30 years, and I've owned many of them. And I can tell you this: if the watch appears "frozen" or "bricked", it isn't: chances are, you pressed a button by accident (very easy to do) and it is in the wrong mode (probably stopwatch mode). Just press MODE, several times if necessary, until everything looks right. And these watches are so cheap that you could shell out $5 or $10 to get your friend another watch, set it one hour ahead of the current time, and instruct your friend to wear one watch in the winter and the other in the summer. 2601:180:C:2FFA:A057:5E52:9501:3284 (talk) 06:57, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. Or maybe have a half dozen set to each time, so when he messes up the settings on one he can just change watches, until I get around to fixing the messed up one. The most unexpected behavior I ran into was when the time toggled from A(m) to P(m) to H (military time). I'm glad you warned me about that, or I would have been quite confused by it. Again, thanks for all your help ! SinisterLefty (talk) 07:07, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Resolved

Phone maze

1) Why is there no article on phone maze? 2) Who invented the phone maze? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1000:B143:20EB:E8E0:EBFB:39CC:EC6 (talk) 17:51, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

The answer to question 1) is because you didn't write it. 2) Sorry, I don't even know what a phone maze is, so I don't know who invented it. Just more details on your first question: Everything at Wikipedia exists because people exactly like you, none of whom are more important than you, saw something missing from Wikipedia, and added it themselves. Nothing at Wikipedia ever gets added unless people like you add it. So, whenever you see something missing, and want to know why, the answer is: no one added it yet. The responsibility to add things to Wikipedia is borne equally by every human on planet Earth: Literally not a single person on Earth is more responsible for improving Wikipedia than you are, so if you want to know who to blame for something not being written, there's literally no one who has more blame for that then you. It's also an easy thing to fix. To write the article, go through these steps: Step 1) Gather reliable sources of information you can use to help you write the article. Step 2) Read those sources, and in your own words, write the Wikipedia article using what you researched from those sources, being sure to cite the sources you used. Step 3) Sit back and admire a job well done. You can find more information at Wikipedia:Your first article. --Jayron32 18:51, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Apparently it's what you and I might call "the runaround".[1] I doubt there's a need for a separate article on this bit of minutia. Maybe a [sourced] sentence in an article about Customer service or something similar. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:30, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Given that there exist Wikipedia articles on minutiae such as: individual characters from, and individual episodes of, TV series; and individual backwater towns with single- and double-digit populations; and even individual tongue-twisters; why should a common, everyday thing such as a phone maze not get its own article? 2600:1000:B143:20EB:E8E0:EBFB:39CC:EC6 (talk) 20:39, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

How many times a day do you fall into this "phone maze" situation? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:51, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

This is simply bureaucratic red tape applied to telephones, no different from waiting in line to see someone only to be told to go to another line and fill out another form to take to another person, etc. --Khajidha (talk) 12:48, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

We likely have an article on the phone answering system that has you pressing numbers to step through menus, but I don't recall what it's called. Automated telephone answering system doesn't seem to be it. The painful bit I've encountered most is it asking for my customer number repeatedly, including yet again when I finally get a human. Or it makes me step through many menus, then when I finally get to the option of speaking to a human, I get a "Sorry, we're closed now" message, or it rings and nobody answers, or it just disconnects. SinisterLefty (talk) 20:35, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

A little hunting turned up Automated attendant as the likely target. As an article, it could use some love, but that appears to be the concept you're after. --Jayron32 20:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Jayron32, May also be Interactive_voice_response MoonyTheDwarf (Braden N.) (talk) 20:53, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

See [2] for the best phone maze comedy skit I've seen, on Married with Children. Be sure to follow up with all 9 parts to get the full effect, including the Field of Dreams references at the end. SinisterLefty (talk) 21:18, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I believe part of the problem with such systems is that companies must have secretaries set them up, when it needs a full computer programmer environment, complete with unit testing, customer testing, etc. For example, you would need to plot out every possible path through the tree to see if it makes sense (avoiding asking questions it already knows, for example, and presenting options that don't apply in this case). Also, error handling is critical. For example, in the above skit, after hours on the phone, Al Bundy fell asleep and it started over again, when it should have stored his responses and offered the option to resume there, when he called back from the same number. SinisterLefty (talk) 21:28, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't think computer systems are necessary to create this type of situation.

40-odd years ago when I was a student in Scotland, and entitled under the then-prevailing benefits (welfare) system (funded by taxes which I myself had previously and would subsequently pay) to claim some financial support during university holidays (which periods my grant's living allowance designedly did not cover), I spent hours (and much call-cost money) over several days ringing various offices (not located in the same town, so I couldn't readily visit in person), in each of which someone would instruct me to call another, different number in a different office. After being bounced between multiple numbers in each office, it would get to the end of the offices' working day and I'd be told to start over the next morning. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195}2.122.179.237 (talk) 23:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the old run-around doesn't even require phones. They can do the same to you in person. But this is more of a feature of bureaucracy than a misapplication of technology. The combination of the two is the worst. For example, they may well want to ask you a huge number of highly intrusive questions, but having a human do so would waste their time as well as yours. But with technology, it is now possible for them to waste a great deal of your time without wasting any of theirs. Maybe consumers need to join the "arms race" with AI's of our own, that can navigate through endless menus, repeat our customer number forever, wait on hold for hours at a time, and call back the first thing in the morning every day, until we get results. SinisterLefty (talk) 04:59, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Also, if you can't find your way through all the red tape, an ombudsman may help you deal with bureaucracies. SinisterLefty (talk) 06:16, 7 November 2019 (UTC)