Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2017 December 5

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December 5

Roots And Other Stuff In Place of Coffee

So, I was reading about coffee substitutes, like dandelion root and chicory, etc. And Ive always been a fan of adding apices, and such to my coffee grounds. So, I was looking for any suggestions on unusual things that could be added to coffee grounds, or other roots, etc., that could be ground up and brewed.

The result needn't be like coffee, just things that could be brewed and are relatively safe to try brewing if ground (I assume some edible substances in big quantities might not be wise). Any suggestions on where to buy things from a reputable vendor, online, would also be welcome (when searching for edible flowers, I always wondered how they were handled, if they were treated with anything, etc.).

Thanks for any help and suggestions, Ive always wondered why we don't roast and grind other things, or brew from ground roots, etc. (In a coffee like direction rather than a tea like one, if that makes sense).24.3.61.185 (talk) 00:39, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia has everything! See Coffee substitute for a long list of alternatives to the real thing - not that I can understand why anyone would want to use a substitute for the heavenly elixir that is real coffee. Wymspen (talk) 10:22, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

You can add cardamon, chocolate, coconut milk or even cow milk. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:36, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Chicory-and-coffee mixtures are available on the mass market in many western grocery stores; it is very popular in parts of the American south; Café du Monde in New Orleans specializes in serving beignets with coffee and chicory; several major coffee brands in the U.S. sell coffee and chicory blends nationwide. For example, I live over 1000 miles from New Orleans, and my local grocery store stocks This stuff in several brands. Camp Coffee is similarly available in the UK. --Jayron32 13:08, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

• To be pedantic, it is really coffee that became the 'substitute' for all the other infusions commonly drunk, long before coffee came to Europe. They to, often had psycho-tropic effects and included ingredients such nuts, herbs and tree barks. The list is too long to go into. Coffee may have taken over simply because it was original the drink of the rich so it became fashionable. The thing that puts most people off trying these traditional drinks a real try, is I think, because they have heard that they are coffee substitutes only to find they don't taste anything like coffee. Yet, with an open mind they are enjoyable as coffee. A coffee drink should be aware too, that they have developed a caffeine addition. So the full pleasure from imbibing (drinking) will not come until they have weaned themselves off caffeine and come to appreciate the different psycho-tropic effects (some of which are more narcotic in nature rather than stimulating like caffeine and some which are very stimulating but I will not mention -in case some idiot tries it out in his kitchen – as the amount (dose) is very critical.). Also be aware that infusions (made from say) Horse Chestnut bark may have pleasant astringent qualities together with the right amount of bitterness (like a good Arabica coffee), but in it raw form it too -is toxic. One really needs a good authoritative reference to describe how one's Grandmother used to make it and how long she boiled it for, before experimenting one's self. Aspro (talk) 15:48, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

  Well, a more significant reason for drinking coffee besides the taste is the caffeine. People enjoy (or are addicted to. Same difference) the effects of the caffeine in coffee. Chicory doesn't have that. While I agree that other herbs, spices, etc. may have psychoactive effects, they don't have caffeine effects, which sort of misses the point. People don't take drugs just to take drugs, they take drugs because they desire a specific effect. Other effects aren't equivalent. --Jayron32 17:37, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

You miss the point, that people continue to take caffeine, because relieves the symptoms of caffeine withdrawal. It is the monkey on their back that leads them to 'believing' that they like coffee, Coca-Cola, etc., above all else. Because if they don't take it frequently they suffer withdrawal symptoms. With caffeine it is often... see list: [1]. Stop drinking it for a while and the cup that one used to love creates unpleasant feelings of agitation and unease. One no longer desires its effects. So the "desire a specific effect" of which you speak is indicative of addiction and the avoidance behavior of withdrawal. Can't remember the last time I drank coffee or Coca-Cola but it must be many years ago. Aspro (talk) 19:38, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Caffeine has other effects beyond curing the headaches the lack of it creates, you know... People consume it because, independent of curing it's own withdrawal symptoms, it has other psychoactive effects. People desire these effects too. Regardless; why people desire caffeine is not germane to the discussion. People do genuinely desire to drink it for their own reasons. Some do genuinely also enjoy the taste of such beverages. The fact that you do not means fuckall, because you are not significant. Your personal experience means something to you, but means nothing to our discussion here. The point is 1) people want caffeinated drinks. Why doesn't matter. 2) Your experience is not germane to this discussion. --Jayron32 13:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

This seems like we're steering WAAAY into original research. Any concerns regarding the consumption of caffeine should be taken up with a doctor rather than some anecdotal post on a Wikipedia reference desk.--WaltCip (talk) 20:24, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

• @ User:WaltCip. DSM-5 292.0 is NOT original research. It includes caffeine withdrawal. The headaches can be very painful an often come on at weekends when the 'addict' is not at work and drinking many cups of coffee. Ask a pharmacist when s/he sell the most pain-killers. It is on the Saturday and the most favoured brands contain apart from paracetamol... guess what? Yes, several hundred milligrams of caffeine ! If you doubt me look at the packets. Very odd don't you think, because caffeine doesn’t have any pain reliving action? The constipation can be also be like the worst constipation one has experienced. Yet, it magically goes away after after the withdrawal period, never to return. Again, you must have heard in passing, that Americans especially, don't like taking a vocation out-side the US because their kids get sick. Of course they do, because their kids are deprived of their day dose (fix) of caffeine drinks. This addiction to caffeine is well recognized. Very well understood and thus included in DSM-5. 292.0. The OP asked a good question and there are many alternatives to coffee. My vice (or peccadillo) is a good single malt whiskey but I would never consider drinking it every day! Aspro (talk) 21:49, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

• "caffeine doesn’t have any pain reliving action?"

Not of itself, but it's a common ingredient in proprietary headache cures for more reasons than to reverse caffeine withdrawal.

"single malt whiskey"

I have no idea what that would be, but it sounds like some heathen import from a place with a lack of whisky and a surfeit of es. Andy Dingley (talk) 02:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Scotland produces whisky, Ireland produces whiskey - anywhere else can take their pick of the two traditional spellings. Wymspen (talk) 21:00, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Caffeine has long been recognized as a component of pain relievers. The traditional mixture was APC (aspirin, phenacetin, and caffeine), now banned in a lot of places because phenacetin's carcinogenic potential. Whether caffeine by itself is an analgesic, I don't know, but it potentiates the analgesic effect of other substances (see e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8105058, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4005485). I'm not sure why this isn't mentioned in our caffeine article.

As for the whiskey, Irish whiskey also comes in single malt. --Trovatore (talk) 20:45, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

The modern equivalent is aspirin/paracetamol/caffeine, in the U.S. commonly known as the brand Excedrin. --47.157.122.192 (talk) 03:37, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

For those who don't know, "paracetamol" is the same thing as "acetaminophen", the active ingredient in Tylenol.

Acetaminophen is a metabolite of phenacetin, so it should be a pretty close equivalent, except that the former is not thought to cause cancer, at least as far as I know. I'm not sure there's any direct proof that phenacetin causes cancer in humans either, but there was sufficient evidence from animal models and epidemiological studies at least to raise serious concern. --Trovatore (talk) 04:04, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

On another note, I question User:Aspro's inference that the reason that headache remedies sell well on Saturday is that people are in caffeine withdrawal. People who drink a lot of coffee at work are in general perfectly capable of making it for themselves at home. Isn't a simpler explanation being overlooked here, a little thing called the hangover? --Trovatore (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

They may well be capable of “ making it for themselves at home”, but haven't cottoned on to cause and effect. Not realizing that all the meeting they go to during the week may included a really good cup of coffee to perk them up, providing them with well over a 1000 mg of caffeine per day. Come Saturday when relaxing at home, they may start the the day with a coffee but no longer having meetings to attend quickly enter caffeine withdrawal. So off to the drug store for 400gram doses of caffeine to substitute for the lack of strong coffee. As I said above, to relax one doesn't desire coffee to perk oneself up. These tablets help to maintain a viscous, non ending, cycle. You can say what you like but I have witnessed capable colleges suffer burn out and that wasn't due to a little too much alcohol on a Friday night. Aspro (talk) 17:55, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Well, of course the last thing anyone wants is viscous cycles in colleges, but there seems to be pretty decent science behind the assertion that caffeine makes pain relievers work better. At the original-research level, in my personal experience, fending off the caffeine-abstinence headache takes only a small dose (but you have to get it in time; if you wait till 2 PM you may not be able to reverse it), so I really doubt that caffeine withdrawal contributes much to painkiller sales on Saturday. I can't rule out that there's some contribution, but I think alcohol is a lot more obvious a culprit. (Note that strong coffee is also a folk hangover remedy.) --Trovatore (talk) 20:33, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

It's completely wrong to say there's no "specific effect" from caffeine that isn't withdrawal related.

Caffeine is a stimulant. Like most/all stimulants, it has a clear effect, even on people who've never had it before. ApLundell (talk) 23:06, 5 December 2017 (UTC)