Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2016 December 25

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December 25

Geebung time service?

My grandfather (1902–1971) had a novel way of stating the time, especially when the clock chimed or when asked. He would say whatever time it was, with "Geebung" appended; example, "eight Geebung". I knew, even as a youngster, that Geebung was a place in Australia, but only recently did I try to find out where this came from. My grandfather lived in Auckland his entire life and was a keen radio listener and my thinking was that there might have been a time signal over the radio in the 1920s or 30s that originated from Geebung. However, search engine results for "Geebung time service" yield no useful results. Anyone able to shed light on this? Akld guy (talk) 04:14, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

This is a guessing game, not a reference desk:198.134.93.254 (talk) 13:40, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Gebungt is German for "begun". Is it possible that's what he was saying? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:09, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Gebungt is not a German word. "begun" would be begonnen or angefangen. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:36, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Oops, it's gebongt that means "begun", according to Google Translate. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:13, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't know where google translate gets that from. gebongt can be used colloquially for okay or alright. With quite some stretching one might interpret it as "struck" (as in "the bell struck" or "the clock struck"), but I doubt that that it has anything to do with Akld's grandfather. --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:33, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

If the term IS of Germanic origin it may be related to “Punkt”, a term which in the context of time means “on the dot” / “precise”. There has been some significant migration to NZ from Germany around the 1850s and your grandfather either may have had Germanic ancestry or may have heard the term in his childhood. Of course, this is mere speculation. Cookatoo, AKA --62.47.37.164 (talk) 13:09, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

My grandfather had no German ancestry, but my grandmother did, her parents emigrating from Germany in 1890. She never spoke German, but her parents undoubtedly did in the presence of my grandfather. However, I think this German connection is probably not correct, and the connection is to Geebung in Australia. Akld guy (talk) 14:30, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the placename "Geebung" is surely pronounced with a soft "g", in which case it would be a red herring. 86.185.150.23 (talk) 13:56, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

My grandfather always pronounced it with soft "g" as in "Jeep", which is how I understand the Australian place name is pronounced. Akld guy (talk) 14:33, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Correct. See also The Geebung Polo Club -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:21, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you all for the replies, and especially to @Wrongfilter:. On reflection, the German connection may be stronger than I had thought. As already stated, my German great-grandfather and his wife emigrated in 1890 and his name was Anton. Anton's father was Wilhelm and he was a policeman or watchkeeper in Germany. It's possible that "eight gebongt" was a policeman's procedural handover at shift change, meaning "eight o'clock, all's well". Perhaps Anton and his wife kept the tradition going. If they did, my grandfather would undoubtedly have heard them using it before they died in 1924 and 1935 respectively, but he dropped the hard "g" in favour of "Gee" as in "Jeep". Akld guy (talk) 05:18, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

There is no German connection. In IPA notation you would see that "Geebung" and "gebongt" are words that share neither a common pronunciation nor a common meaning. Neither the German noun "Schiebung" (IPA [ˈʃiːbʊŋ], meaning wangling) nor the German neologism "gebongt" (IPA [ɡəˈbɔŋt], meaning okey-dokey) can be used in connection with clocks or hours. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 14:47, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, in the theory, gebongt was not being used in connection with clocks or hours but with the situation at handover from one shift change to another. It was the situation that was "okey-dokey", not the time. Do you have a reference that says that gebongt is a neologism and unlikely to have been used in the 19th century? Akld guy (talk) 21:42, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Wiktionary explains the rare verb bongen as "a 20th century derivation, formed from the noun Bon", based on Kluge's Etymological Dictionary of the German Language, 24th edition, 2001, p. 139. I have here before me the 23rd edition, 1999, p. 125, confirming the same. It is found in this meaning (derivation of the noun Bon, voucher, i.e. to make a voucher) from 1960's to 1980's. Afterwards the past participle "gebongt" gained the slang meaning "okey-dokey" (first reference 1979). I assure you again that there is no possible connection. In the time of our grandparents that word "gebongt" was not even known. Our grandparents would have used for a full hour "Schlag 8" (stroke eight, precisely 8 o'clock) and our parents would have used "Punkt 8" (point 8, precisely 8 o'clock). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 15:19, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm getting irritated with your insistence that gebongt is not used to mean "exactly" 8 o'clock. I never said it was or that it might have been used that way. OK, so Schlag 8 and Punkt 8 mean 8 o'clock precisely. Who cares? What I said was that gebongt might have been used by German police to mean "all's well". Nothing to do with the exact time. You have said that it was never used in the 19th century, which I accept. Akld guy (talk) 20:36, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

In mediaeval times the watchman would walk the streets and at the appropriate time make the comforting call "Eight o'clock and all's well!" Did this have a German equivalent, and, if so, what was it? 92.24.110.81 (talk) 21:34, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Secret recipes

It is known for some companies such as Coca Cola and McDonald's that the recipes for their foods and beverages are secret and only a couple of people in the world know them.

1) How are these products manufactured and sold worldwide if no one knows the recipes?

2) Can't anyone take a product to a laboratory, make analysis of it, and figure out what it's made of and how?

--Qnowledge (talk) 13:36, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

1) The manufacturer knows the recipes

2) The skill in cooking is not just getting the quantities right but how you combine the ingredients to get the unique flavour. 86.185.150.23 (talk) 13:45, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Here it says, among other things, that Dr Pepper is "made from 23 different ingredients known only to 3 senior employees at one time". Are you implying that these 3 guys PHYSICALLY manufacture the all the Dr Pepper beverages in the world? --Qnowledge (talk) 13:56, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

In most cases, there is a key plant which manufactures the flavouring cordial, which is then shipped round the world to be diluted and bottled. All it needs is a couple of people who can put together the key mix of flavourings that make the drink unique - that mixture can then be used by many others who don't know the ingredients. See http://www.coca-colacompany.com/our-company/the-coca-cola-system Wymspen (talk) 16:24, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

But what's most cases? If you're referring to Coca-cola, if you read your source carefully, it doesn't actually say that all Coca-cola syrup is manufactured in one plant. It seems surprisingly hard to find how many places it's manufactured at but [1] mentions 10 facilities in North America and 20 outside North America which manufacture syrup or concentrate, but it doesn't say whether all of these are manufacturing Coca-cola itself from scratch. This source does mention a facility in Swaziland which replaced the pre-apartheid facility in South Africa both of which did seem to be manufacturing Coca-cola syrup [2]. This isn't unique to Coca-cola BTW. I search for info on KFC and likewise I couldn't actually find any info on where the seasoning blends worldwide were generally made. While it's true that formulas can be guarded in the various ways described in this thread, I haven't seen strong evidence it's really as secretive as a lot of the mystique suggests, e.g. with the number of people who know. E.g. I'm not convinced all KFC seasoning is manufactured in the US, and even if it's true it's always a precondition of using 2 manufacturers, this significantly opens up the number of people who know at least part of the formula. Nil Einne (talk) 23:20, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

I think that stories of jealously guarded secret formulas are largely made up for marketing purposes. It's hard to find trustworthy sources for this, since the details are inevitably secret, but This American Life #427 (transcript) offers some support for it. The episode points out, for example, that the mythology surrounding the Coca-Cola formula includes both a written copy in a heavily guarded safe and its being known only to two people who can't fly on the same plane lest it crash, which seems inconsistent. Ira Glass also writes on the episode page: "As for our bigger point, that the ingredients to Coke's supposedly super-secret formula can be figured out without much trouble by anyone who wants to, that seems incontrovertibly true. Versions of the recipe have been published starting in the 1960's. Not to mention that a device called a gas chromatograph can tell a trained scientist the ingredients in coke or any other beverage, not with perfect accuracy, but close enough that you're in the ballpark." -- BenRG (talk) 19:47, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

• Having worked as a cook in three chain restaurants, I can assure you that their cooks' bibles begin with warnings that the ingredients and their preparations are trade secrets, and we are (were) required to acknowledge this as a condition of employment. These are pretty much open secrets, but I suppose these rules would be offered in evidence in a civil suit for infringement of trademark or theft of intellectual property. See, for example, Bennigan's Death by Chocolate, which was prepared by only one trusted employee in a staff of dozens. Not really hard to reverse engineer, but any edge over the competition is valued.

μηδείς (talk) 01:39, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

We have an article on KFC Original Recipe, complete with the actual ingredients. It mentions that the secret version is kept safe by being mixed together by two rival seasoning companies (in this case, Griffith Labs and McCormick's). Our article on Coca-Cola formula details a slightly different, but similar, setup. The short version is that you can keep that stuff secret by having multiple companies involved with discrete parts of the process. While a gas chromatograph might detail the molecules, it wouldn't tell you much about how to put them together. You would be close but all colas are nearly the same thing anyway; either the minute differences are all important or - more likely - the whole thing is more about brand loyalty than anything else. Further reading is at secret ingredient (which, oddly enough, doesn't redirect to love). Matt Deres (talk) 17:00, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Coke tastes different from Pepsi, although the obvious difference is a higher sugar content in Pepsi. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:30, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm somewhat confused why McDonalds was mentioned here. I'm not aware that McDonald's has anything that has the secretive mystique of KFC or Coca-cola. E.g. [3] is from McDonald's Canada showing you how to make Big Mac sauce. Okay it isn't the exact same as made commercially, but that's said to be because they're looking at something a home cook can make rather than someone buying ingredients commercially. And notably as mentioned here [4] they aren't adding preservatives because it isn't designed to be something to keep. Nil Einne (talk) 23:28, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

It's addressed in our article. It's long been referred to as 'secret sauce'. Matt Deres (talk) 01:57, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, you have to be old enough to have heard a "secret sauce" commercial, which I think went out in the 80's, when the marketing went more urban and less housewife-on-the-run oriented. When I drank soda, I started with coke, and found pepsi sickeningly sweet. μηδείς (talk) 02:43, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I find Pepsi Throwback far more palatable - It has exactly the same amount of sugar, but it's cane sugar instead of high-fructose corn syrup, so it tastes far less sweet. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:07, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

@Someguy1221: I don't drink cola much any more, as I am diabetic, and I picked up the habit as a cook because sodas were free, but my preferred drinks, milk and OJ were not. In any case, I suggest you try the regular Coke http://www.coca-colacompany.com/stories/kosher-coke-how-an-atlanta-rabbi-started-a-passover-tradition sold with a yellow cap on the two-liter bottle for passover. It has sugar cane rather than corn syrup to meet the rules about avoiding grain. It tastes so much better I am surprised they don't sell it year-round. μηδείς (talk) 04:04, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't see where it's addressed in our article. The only thing close is some nonsense from the Daily Mail relating to the video I mentioned above which says it's not really been a secret for years. The Daily Mail is correct that the video itself does say it's not really a secret, but this doesn't necessarily mean it was ever actually thought of a secret except by weird people. As for the marketing mentioned above, is this worldwide or just in the US? Mostly searches for McDonalds secret sauce finds nonsense including from people after 2012 talking like they cracked the code which suggests more hype by weird people, I mean you get the same nonsense about "secret menus", some of which even suggest dumb crap like asking for unsalted fries and adding your own so you can get fresh fries. With the case of KFC and Coca-cola, it seems clear that this is an actively promoted claim worldwide. (Even if the mythology appears suspect at times.) Nil Einne (talk) 11:55, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I did find [5] relating to the inventor of a Big Mac saying he wouldn't ingredients because it wouldn't be a secret, so this does suggest it was an actively made claim at one time although it's still not clear this is a worldwide thing. Nil Einne (talk) 11:58, 28 December 2016 (UTC)