Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2015 September 5

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September 5

Austrian Cuisine

Wiener Schnitzel, Kaiserschmarren and Topfengolatschen is typical for Austria. But there are more meals and snacks, e.g. in the maintain huts. As we stay in Austria, in the evening we eat this [1] or [2]. What's that for a small baguette/bread? Which cheese do they use? It's called "Messeressen" and "prettyjausn" but google doesn't know it.

Thanks for all information!!--Rail12345 (talk) 11:15, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

You can google for "Brettljausn" or "Brettljause". But I think you can use almost any cheese in it. —Kusma (t·c) 15:32, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I found some people suggesting Steirerkäse. —Kusma (t·c) 15:34, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Pretty much anywhere in Germany, Austria, or Switzerland you can find cold-cut meals like this. The type of bread, meat, cheese, vegetables, and pickles all vary in a more or less arbitrary way, though. Looie496 (talk) 18:47, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

World Gymnaestrada

I just got to thinking, if the World Gymnaestrada is the biggest gymnastics event in the world, why has it so far always been held in Europe? I mean, it's all the better for me, because I could see the latest (XV) event without having to travel abroad, and the next (XVI) event is only going to involve fairly easy aeroplane/train travel. There seem to be participants from all over the world - the XV Gymnaestrada in Helsinki had participants from as far as Australia, Brazil and China, for example - but why has the host city so far always been in Europe? In comparison, the biggest sports event in the world in total, the Olympics, has been held all around the world. JIP | Talk 18:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

The World Series has, as yet, only been held in North America... --Jayron32 03:59, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

First of all, are you sure it's actually the biggest gymnastics event in the world? Our article only claims it's the biggest "general gymnastics exhibition," and World Gymnastics Championships events have been held in China, Australia, Mexico, the USA, South Africa, Japan, New Zealand, Canada, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Azerbaijan, and one is scheduled for Qatar. Gymnastics may be an exception, but athletic exhibitions are generally much less high-profile than competitions (I can easily believe it's the biggest in terms of number of participants due to the nature of exhibitions, but I would be somewhat surprised if it is in terms of general interest/attendance). The Gymnaestrada seems to be a surprisingly hard thing to find sources about...I haven't even been able to find a full list of participating countries. But my guess would be that the large majority of participating countries are European, and as this is a much less high profile event than something like the World Cup it might not be financially viable to hold it far away from most participating countries (and therefore, presumably, fans). Even if Brazil participated, for example, they may only have sent a few gymnasts and perhaps none of the other nearby countries participated at all. It would be hard to imagine an Gymnaestrada held in Brazil being successful if that is indeed the case, since the event seems to be too low profile for many Europeans to be willing to make the trip and too obscure outside of Europe to attract significant local interest. A possible point of comparison is that the first 8 World Cups, up until 1970, were all held in either Europe or South America, the places with the traditionally biggest soccer fanbases. -Elmer Clark (talk) 20:24, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Eating animals

I've just found out that I've eaten about half of the animals in the Winnie-the-Pooh stories. I've eaten bear, pork, horse and kangaroo so far. I intend on eating rabbit some day. Is it possible to eat tiger or owl meat, fully legally, anywhere in the world? JIP | Talk 18:56, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Not in Israel because: "You may eat any clean bird. But these you may not eat... the horned owl, the screech owl... the little owl, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the cormorant,the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat." Deuteronomy 14:11-18 Alansplodge (talk) 19:09, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

But do Jewish dietary rules have the force of law in Israel ? Somehow I doubt it, as Israel has a rather secular government. StuRat (talk) 20:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

You're probably right, but I was thinking of pork apparently being sold as "white beef" and bacon as "zebra" in Israel. [3] However, looking at E. H. Shepard's illustration, Owl seems to be a tawny owl which is not on the proscribed list. Goodness knows what Disney's depiction is supposed to be; some kind of owl mongrel perhaps. Alansplodge (talk) 15:36, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(Please note that Eeyore is not a horse, though donkey meat, too, can be bought and consumed legally). ---Sluzzelin talk 19:26, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I know, I took a little shortcut there, as the horse and the donkey are very closely related, and the meat of both is very easily and fully legally available. If I'm not mistaken, the horse and the donkey are much more closely related to each other than the cow, whose meat I usually eat here in Finland. There are no cows in the Winnie-the-Pooh stories. JIP | Talk 20:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

There's an old proverb that the good burghers of Guangdong and especially Guangzhou (Canton) and Foshan will eat anything with legs except a table, anything in the sea except a ship, and anything that flies except an aeroplane. SARS probaby originated in their fondness for civet cats. I imagine owl meat would be fairly easy to obtain (about Y1,800 RMB according to a recent report). Eating tiger meat would be illegal and very expensive, but Guangzhou is by far your best bet. Matt's talk 21:54, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

According to this article, one can (illegally) buy tiger meat in Laos. It's presumably legal to eat (as opposed to sell - see CITES) tiger meat anywhere it's legal to own a tiger, if one was the owner of the tiger before its demise, although I don't know of any definite examples. See also zoophagy. Tevildo (talk) 22:28, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Another article about illegal tiger consumption in China, if it's useful. Tevildo (talk) 02:12, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

The sources I read suggest the situation in China is unclear. Tiger skins are okay, tiger bones are not [4] [5]. It could be if you aren't trading but simply doing it on an individual basis it would be okay, but I wouldn't be so sure. IMO countries like Laos and China are a bad bet for legal consumption because the problems they have there may very well mean they have laws which ban it completely. (I can't speak for Laos, but my impression is China despite some oddities like with child prostitutes and rape of older boys and young men, actually has quite a lot of decent laws, they're just often very poorly enforced.)

Plus corruption would be an issue. Whatever you should be able to do, in countries with pervasive corruption when you're a foreigner trying to do something complicated where the authorities can easily be, or even have to be involved, there's a strong risk you won't have much luck if you aren't willing to pay a bribe, which makes it difficult if you want to do it legally.

As per my comment below on owls, I would actually wonder if a developed countries with a good legal system would be your best bet. In the US there are said to be 5k tigers in captivity and it seems even in those states which ban them as pets, you can sometimes keep them as a commercial enterprise [6] [7] [8] [9].

I don't understand the CITES related laws that well, but my impression is similar to yours namely that it probably won't stop you eating your own tiger. (I doubt the laws will even stop you killing it, but you could always give it a good live and wait for it to die naturally.) There may be other laws, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were none really that would stop you. Probably even you need people to help you take care of, kill, butcher and cook the tiger. If you try to trade in tiger parts even only within the US national borders, I suspect you may get more attention, but I suspect there's a fair chance simply eating your own tiger would be okay somewhere in the US. (A complicating factor particularly in common law countries is it can be quite difficult to know if it's really illegal or not until it's tested in court depending on the precise wordings of the laws.)

Worst case scenario, perhaps you can find somewhere where in the world with little corruption and where the tiger trade (or illegal species trade in general) is rarely a concern. The biggest problem may be that you'll need to import the tiger, in which case if the country is part of CITES I think you'll need a permit and there is a slight risk it may be rejected if your plan is just to kill an eat it even if the law doesn't explicitly forbid it.

Nil Einne (talk) 08:01, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I missed this CITES [10] directive linked from one of the Guardian sources. It does suggest if the tiger was specifically bred for consumption you may have problems. But I'm not sure it will affect stuff if you just go around looking for a single tiger from someone to eat. Or in other words, as per my earlier comment, if you're just doing it in a single case for yourself you may be fine, but if you try doing it commercially, probably not. Then again, even if not for parts, I'm not sure the breeding of tigers in the US and wherever else for pets is really following the "captive population to a level supportive only to conserving wild tigers" idea, so it's possible the parts of the directive haven't been well followed in local laws. Nil Einne (talk) 15:00, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

The OP will also have to eat a Heffalump and various beetles (to cover Small and Smallest-of-All). Getting hold of a Wild Woozle or a Spotted or Herbaceous Backson might prove tricky. Tevildo (talk) 22:41, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

And then there's Christopher Robin ... ---Sluzzelin talk 22:59, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

He's been dead nearly 20 years. Meat that old is liable to be just a tad on the tough side. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:31, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Speaking of which, you can get chicken or turkey at Red Robin, but ask for them to serve their namesake and they look at you like you're insane ! :-) StuRat (talk) 02:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

The OP didn't say he wanted to eat Winnie the Pooh, just animals of the same type. So, presumably he would settle for eating any human. Which means that JIP is officially not invited to any dinner party I ever throw. Dragons flight (talk) 10:30, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I already have eaten Winnie the Pooh. Or more precisely, bear. I'm not going to eat Christopher Robin or any other human. It's illegal, and besides that, the mere thought of eating a human is repulsive to me. JIP | Talk 16:27, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Illegal where? My impression was you weren't restricting yourself to things legal in Finland, and most of this thread is based on that assumption. And I doubt it's illegal to eat human everywhere. For example our Cannibalism seems to imply it was legal in the England and Vancouver in 1988-1989. Even if things have changed since then in those countries, I suspect you'll find some country where it isn't illegal. Killing people to eat them would probably be illegal thoroughout the world, as would mutilating them for the purpose may be even if you had their permission and most likely eating a dead person when you didn't have their permission or perhaps that of their next of kind. But there's no reason why that would be required, as the England and Vancouver cases showed. Nil Einne (talk) 17:47, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Forgot to mention that eating the placenta could arguably considered eating human, and as our Human placentophagy attests, it's trendy for some, most commonly for mothers, but far from exclusively. Nil Einne (talk) 17:56, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Don't forget the bees and the Jagular. Mmmm... SteveBaker (talk) 00:53, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I've eaten snowy owl but I have no idea if it legal or not. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 00:58, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Did it taste like chicken? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:29, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Of course it did. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 09:21, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

In the US, it is illegal to kill all owls, though they make exceptions for owls menacing livestock (with a special permit). I don't know about other countries, but it does suggests that legally killed owl meat may be pretty hard to come by. As suggested above, China or other countries with less restrictive policies about wildfowl may be your best bet. Tiger hunting won't be legal anywhere. Dragons flight (talk) 10:30, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I never had the intention of killing all owls. JIP | Talk 16:25, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Not so sure about that. [11] suggests there is a resonable population of legal captive owls in the UK, to the extent that "propensity of owls being offered for sale through the likes of local papers, car boot sales, etc." Not sure when that was written, but probably Harry Potter created a surge of demand, then a glut when people realised keeping owls as pets isn't easy, and not anywhere as fun as it seemed in the books or movies [12]. See also [13]. Anyway it seems to me it isn't that hard to find a legitimate captive owl in the UK. And considering the info on these owners, I'm guessing it isn't hard to find a breeder or owner who won't care if you plan to eat it. I couldn't find an answer from a quick search (the best I found was [14], but I wouldn't be surprised if the UK is like NZ, and it is legal to eat your pets of nearly any kind if they were raised and killed humanely, as our dog meat article mentions. (Technically the eating generally wouldn't be the illegal part, but I think we all agree the whole process needs to be legal for it to be truly legal meat.) Of course it does depend how specific we want to be. As mentioned by one comment above, it may be implied or directly stated what kind of owl is in tbe books, in which case, just just as Eeyore is a donkey and not a horse, shouldn't we be specific about the owl? Mind you, I'm not sure if the OP ate a teddy bear, but I digress. Nil Einne (talk) 17:40, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Can I nominate this as The Best Ref Desk Thread Ever? If we don't yet have that award, we should... --Jayron32 03:58, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

  Jayron32 It's a nice idea, but in my experience, the criticism isn't really worth it. --Dweller (talk) 08:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

@JIP: Bear (groan) in mind, that it is considered impolite to finnish an entire Heffalump in one sitting at the restaurant. They are known to cause flatulence, audially similar to the trumpetings of a bus-load of irate pachyderms sitting on the adjoining table. Some olfactory damage to the last known glutton to gobble down an entire heffalump - the late Mr Creosote (the link is not for the faint of heart or the feeble of mind) - has also been reported. What it does to your poo is, fortunately, far below the accustomed level of this reference desk. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:03, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

At the risk of being a wet blanket, I'll note that Winnie the Pooh and friends are stuffed animals. Their meat is cotton, rags, straw and other things that aren't exactly illegal to eat, but non-nutritious enough for involuntary commitment in some circumstances. Feeding them to your children in lieu of real baby kangaroo is probably illegal most everywhere. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Rabbit, Owl and the beetles were real animals (in E H Shepard's illustrations, at least). Tevildo (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Good catch. But were the beetles really ever "and friends"? Call me crazy, but I say you could let them be and still consider yourself a true hundredacrivore. But you can't skip at least trying broiled boy. How else would you know you don't like it? InedibleHulk (talk) 19:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, beetles are easy; Small Edible June Beetles for $6.50 a pack (although not native British ones if you're being pedantic). Alansplodge (talk) 21:13, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

If I'm being Poohdantic, food should be harvested in the fall, when it's ripe. Junebugs don't count. Not my rules, Disney's. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:09, September 6, 2015

Disney? The great musher-up of other people's culture? Not a reliable source as far as I'm concerned. I've just found that we do have June beetles in England, but I suspect that they're a bit different to their Thai namesakes. Alansplodge (talk) 10:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia all other June beetles except the European one are North American. I don't know what the Thai company is selling as June beetles. 23:49, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

According to the bag label, some sort of Phyllophaga. Companies aren't restricted to using local material, and if they were, only the natural habitat is North American. That doesn't preclude a farm, which the company says it uses for all insects. I'd imagine the Disney rules allow for hunting in June, just not gathering. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:58, 8 September 2015 (UTC)