Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2015 October 8

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October 8

Operating washing machine at high altitude

Typically, a washing machine's highest temperature setting is at 90C/95C/200F (in my experience, that is - may differ from country to country). Just below boiling point, in other words, which makes sense. It occurred to me just now, though, that that'd already be above boiling point at higher elevations, due to the air pressure dependence - I'm too lazy to research it in detail now, but unless my memory deceives me, it drops to somewhere in the 70s C atop very high mountains, so such a scenario isn't even all that far-fetched.

So, if one were to use a typical modern washing machine at that hot setting someplace high-up, what happens? Does the water get heated to a correspondingly lower just-below-boiling temperature, or to the nominal temperature, and in the latter case, what would be the physical effects? I'm guessing this depends in large part on the operation of the kinds of heating mechanisms used in such devices? Any insights?

- 91.13.245.127 (talk) 14:08, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I've only seen washing machines that reach those temperatures in Europe, where consumer markets tend to be well regulated. I have not seen those machines here in the United States, where interstate commerce is unrestricted and there are populations living above 1800 meters, where the boiling point falls below 95C. If they are sold here, I would think they would have to be printed with warnings about use above that altitude. I would think that a country would not allow the import of machines with such high temperatures unless 1) all inhabited parts of the country are at a low altitude, or 2) consumer markets are well enough regulated to prevent the sale of such machines above a certain altitude without mechanical/electronic adjustment or at least a warning printed on the equipment about use above that altitude. I doubt that these machines are equipped with altitude sensors. Allowing the water in the washing vessel to boil would be dangerous because it would create a risk of hot liquid escaping and injuring a person. With repeated use, the steam produced could also cause water damage to surrounding structures. Marco polo (talk) 15:55, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

• Can I assume you are talking about dishwashers? "Washing machine" in the US usually refers to a clothes washer, and they smply run off the home hot-water line. Whatever you are referring to, I assume it is not a clothes washer. μηδείς (talk) 16:44, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

No, most washing machines for clothing have heating elements and regulate the temperature. Some also have an option of utilising an existing hot water supply to safe electricity, but will still use internal heating elements to reach the desired temperature. Normal settings for European style machines are 30/40/60/90 ℃, although modern machines tend to support even lower and sometimes in-between temperatures. Using only the building warm water supply is very rare, and I think essentially unheard of in Europe. Most domestic warm-water supplies don't provide more than 50 ℃, if that. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:52, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

For that matter, dishwashers commonly have internal heating elements also—at least, all the ones I've owned have had them, but none of those reached a temperature near 90℃.

This chart shows that the boiling point passes 90℃ at about 10,000 feet or 3,000 m elevation. In the US, the city of Leadville is about that high, and in countries like Nepal and Bolivia there must be considerable numbers of people living at such altitudes. However, whether washing machines capable of high temperature are sold in these places is another matter. --174.88.134.156 (talk) 17:03, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's odd, in the US I have never used a clothes washer in a house or a laundromat that had water too hot to put your hands in on the "hot" setting. I would imagine there are industrial models that approach boiling, and dishwashers seem to normally have an internal heating unit. μηδείς (talk) 18:44, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Here in the UK (where I remember the old wash boilers that had a fire underneath), I've never seen a clothes washer that didn't have a 90C setting, though I've never needed to use that high temperature. Do Americans never wash above 50C? Dbfirs 09:41, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

In the US, you generally have options labeled "cold", "warm", and "hot", but most machines give you no indication what specific temperatures those setting actually correspond to. According to this [1] by GE Appliances, the "hot" setting really is determined by the temperature of water provided by the hot water line connected to the home's water heater (a typical water heater setting is 120 °F (49 °C)). Dragons flight (talk) 10:20, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I was not aware of that pondian difference in washing machines. If the water heater is set to 120F then the water in the machine is unlikely to be above 110F and possibly lower if there is a long run of pipe from the heater to the machine. Here in the UK, modern washing machines have only a cold inlet (though I do connect mine to the hot water supply, to save electricity in heating). Dbfirs 12:43, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

I discussed this at length with my father who has built schools, hospitals, hotels, and other institutions and who was originally an apprenticed pipe fitter. He confirmed my knowledge that in general circumstances American washing machines simply run off the building's main hot and cold water lines. It's for this reason that when I wash a large load on hot, I will usually run a small load first on more delicate items set at hot, where the temperature will actually be tepid by the time the drum fills.

There is of course the question of industrial facilities, which he could not advise me on. My sister also has a side loader with enough buttons to command the Starship Enterprise (actually, the thing sounds more like a TARDIS), and I know there is indeed a "hot" setting that heats the water above what comes in from the pipes. μηδείς (talk) 15:48, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

It suggests about 1524m for 95℃. Based on that and List of highest towns by country, it would at least be a potential problem in France, Italy, Switzerland, Armenia, Austria, Andorra, Spain, Turkey, Georgia and Azerbaijan for such machines. Nil Einne (talk) 17:43, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I also found [2] which is a 95 degrees C machine apparently sold in Sri Lanka. (The language used makes me thing it's not simply something appearing on all LG sites. Also [3].) I'm also thinking it is or was sold in India [4], another place where it could easily have problems. On the other hands, if the description isn't misleading, the washing machine is designed to deal with steam in at least some cases, although probably not when used for a normal clothes wash. On the other hand, it seems likely this machine is or was sold for the relatively high end of the market, and I'm not sure how likely they are to be used in places where it may be a problem in Sri Lanka. Possibly for India too. Nil Einne (talk) 18:02, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

(EC) Do (front loader which I believe are the norm in much of Europe) washing machines in Europe even have hot water inlets? Most front loaders in NZ don't, and [5] seems to suggest it's the same in the UK. The reason AFAIK (also supported by that source) is similar as for dishwashers, most use so little water that unless you have very well insulated pipes (and probably even then) it's quite ineffective to use supplied hot water as you're mostly taking cooled down water from the pipes. Perhaps if your hot water supply is every cheap (e.g. solar, or very occasionally I guess heatpump or non-eletric) but these cases are considered rare enough most manufacturers don't bother. Top loading machines here still seem to often still have dual connection, occasionally with internal heating as well. Nil Einne (talk) 17:25, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Anecdotally yes, front loaders in the US can have both cold and hot water hookups. It was certainly true of the couple of front loaders I've known well-enough to say for sure, and I would be surprised if it wasn't routine for both lines to be present. It is worth noting that much of the US uses water heaters that run on natural gas, which at US rates can be much cheaper than heating water with electricity. That may help motivate the use of residential hot water rather than internal electric heating. Dragons flight (talk) 16:05, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, virtually all washing machines in the UK are front-loaders. They don't have supplied hot water feeds. But about 20 years ago, you had a choice to use the supplied hot water or to heat it yourself. There was a red hot-water pipe and a blue cold-water one, and you could install one or both. I think it would be good to go back to that. I was interested to read Stephan's view that domestic hot water is at no more than 50 deg. Ours, on a Norwegian-made air-to-water heat pump is at a maximum of 60 deg, which I find fine, but the installer - was worried about as 60 deg is only just enough to kill legionella. 50 deg I don't think meets new-build regulations in the UK. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:49, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

This datasheet from Toshiba does indeed specify a maximum altitude of 1000 meters AMSL (in the microscopic print at the bottom of the page). Tevildo (talk) 17:18, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

At least Toshiba recommending Windows 8.1 is in bigger print Nil Einne (talk) 17:28, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Ohh, nice find, Tevildo! And thanks to everyone else for your input. :)

I'm thinking there are two ways a manufacturer could go about this, and the outcome would depend on which they choose: The machine could heat the water to the indicated temperature per se, as it presumably does for all lower settings, or it could work like an electric kettle here: "a thermostat, triggered by the rising steam as the water would come to boil, would flex, thereby cutting off the current." In the former case, a lower boiling point would mean that it'd just keep on boiling off water into steam (assuming washing machines aren't airtight, that is - if they are, things could get quite nasty indeed) and never reach the target temperature at all. What happens in that case would depend on the programming. In the latter case, it should behave as usual, right?

- 91.13.245.127 (talk) 00:18, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Personal bank a/c details

I’m 'planning only' to create a website in the near future and or insert my personal bank a/c details in any website(s) - only ‘how to send money in the a/c’ information of the country I’m living in so that I could receive money from any other country, including the country I’m living – probably without opening up a company, be it for charity/whatever; I definitely need donations. I would like to know the risk factors associated with this methodology. If this post fall under the ‘legal advice’, then please assist me with a ‘list of risk factors’; would be sufficient in order for me to grasp/analyse. Regards. -- Space Ghost (talk) 18:28, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Electronic_funds_transfer has information several different ways that money can be transferred. But I don't know what you mean by a/c. Here in the USA that usually means air conditioning. ac also doesn't have anything that looks relevant to money transfer.

Paypal claims to work in 190 countries [6], so there's a good chance it might work for you. I don't know if they can work internationally, but you might look into Patreon or crowdfunding more generally.

If you care to share what country you are located in (or your bank is located in), we might be able to give you better references and information on transferring money to that country from other countries. (N.B. I do not think this is a request for legal advice. This is a request for information about mechanisms of transferring funds. It can be answered and referenced without giving any legal or professional advice. If anyone tries to provide legal advice here, I may remove it.) SemanticMantis (talk) 18:44, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I would love to tell, but I'm embarrassed of it -- Space Ghost (talk) 20:09, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

a/c simple means account, see wiktionary:a/c. Nil Einne (talk) 18:46, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

D'oh! Thanks. I don't think direct bank transfers are usually recommended for this kind of thing, but I don't have time right now to look for further refs. OP may well find a useful and functional alternative among the links above. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:55, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

You might want to talk to a bank at an early stage about this idea. You might need to set up a secure server. Or maybe Paypal could do it all for you. Don't forget that if your potential donors can pay by credit card, then their credit card company can handle the currency exchange, although they will have to pay a transaction charge. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:41, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

A few years back, a "journalist" published his bank details in a national newspaper to test this idea. £500 was subsequently taken from his account.[7] --Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:38, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The direct debit would, of course, be refunded immediately on request, but the UK system allows almost any company or charity to set up debits on the assumption that no permanent harm will be done. I wonder if they allow new accounts to implement direct debits? The potential for fraud is worrying, especially if the banks allow new accounts to implement direct debits, then the accounts are closed before the complaints arrive. Presumably, banks that don't check are liable for any loss. Dbfirs 09:28, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

My understanding from discussions surrounding the Clarkson case when I read them a few weeks ago is that the requirements for setting up a paperless direct debit in the UK (and probably most countries with similar concepts), is the requirements are quite strigent. I don't think it'll be easy for someone to set it up and take off with the money except perhaps a formerly good business owner who's gone off the deep end or getting very desperate, or perhaps a resonable business with untrustworth upper level staff (and even then, the business may go bankrupt, but I suspect the banks won't actually lose much money). There is some related discussion here [8] [9] [10] which mention various checks although don't go in to the details.

The Clarkson case is of course primarily, for lack of better word, trolling. Since the money went to charity, it's fairly unlikely the person gained anything except a bit of "fun" or maybe a bet with a mate. If you're asking for donations and people feel your request is unresonable, perhaps there is a risk you'll have the same, but ultimately you just have to pay proper attention to your account statements, which you should be anyway, and dispute such transactions. There is perhaps an additional minor risk of people trying to use your direct debits to pay for stuff, but this will mostly be bills and the like, the risk is far lower than it would be for something like credit cards. In those cases, you'd expect the payee to follow up on it but I don't know how well they actually do so [11]. This is also interesting [12], I'm not really sure how well payees are actually doing any of that.

Personally, I think the risk of putting your bank account number online in most countries tends to be overblown, while I'm not saying you should do it willy nilly, if you have a good reason to do it, it isn't as risky as some online advice suggests and from what I can tell, most banks don't actually require that you keep your account number secret, hence they the info tends to be (AFAIK anyway) on most account statements etc. In fact, this includes cheques, and preprinted debit slips that may come with them, and the latest at least when they were more common, were likely discarded or simple left behind when someone made a mistake. For that matter, the same when these details were written out. (And probably a bigger worry than reversable unauthorised debits is the possibility of someone trying to pretend to be you to the bank, if the banks checks are weak.) The US may be an exception, or at least there are lots of claims about how you should never give out your routing number (despite it also being on cheques which are still so common there).

However I'm not sure whether this is a particularly useful way for the OP to ask for money, paying people via their bank account often only works well nationally. Besides some special cases like SEPA in the Eurozone, internationally you'll generally have to use a Telegraphic Transfer like payment which tend to have quite high fees making them only worthwhile for fairly large transfers.

Nil Einne (talk) 01:27, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

A direct debit a/c is/could be an issue. Definitely need a thing like Paypal; sounds good too. A problem I recall from the past i.e. 'I think paypal (or something like it) tests by taking a £1 out from the a/c you register in order to test if it is real/active, what it can't do with a savings a/c'. Paypal users, please let me know if this testing occurs or not. That being said, after reading Judith's statement, I think creating a website would also be an issue due to server security reason, and thanks for stating it out Judith. I guess if I don't wish to open up a company now then the only plan I could/should have is to use a savings a/c, and its a different case based on my experience, i.e., you can input money via all the transaction methods available but you can't pay for anything with its card. You can only cash out from a bank counter or ATM. I've also heard that people have used this method already, terrorists for example, the once who got caught thereafter the 9/11 incident, when the whole charity business became an issue in UK thereafter an extensive investigation - it was found that many were using this 'move' for personal gain (which still occurs in every country even after they've opened up a charity company) - resulting in sending out a charity company number ID for every charity company that exists. Nowadays people don't donate until or unless they see the number ID. Regardless, saving a/c is what I have to go with if I don't open up a company a/c, no matter what country I live in...well this is what I have in this 'trampy' 'people killing' country.

The second important part of this matter is, I would like to know who the donors are and keep a record for future use, how much they've donated...this is very important because I don't think bank statement information will be sufficient. Do you guys think a/the bank owner(s) will at least contact the donor(s) on my behalf in order to send my messages? - I'll definatly ask a bank owner like Judith stated, I'm just wondering (at this moment in time) if it is possible - Of course I have to tell the bank owner why and its not an issue when the right time comes...

Space Ghost (talk) 20:09, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Medical: in a human body does the heart regulates the blood pressure, right?

how is it than instead handled in some animals which are having 2,3 or 5 hearts? What is there regulating the blood pressure? (as I know elephants have more than 1 heart and I have heard about a dinosaurier what was having more than 6 hearts inside his body..) --Hijodetenerife (talk) 22:30, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I think you should start by reading Blood pressure#Regulation and Elephant#Internal and sexual organs. Then maybe reformulate your question.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 22:40, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)See Blood_pressure#Physiology. The heart is the source of blood pressure, but not what regulates it. Regulation of blood pressure is carried out by changes in blood volume, consistency, or the properties of blood vessels. And elephants do not have two hearts. They have an unusually shaped heart that has historically been misinterpreted as two distinct hearts [13]. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:43, 8 October 2015 (UTC)